Analysis of What is Happening with the Ordination of Women Pastors

[Stan]

Analysis of What is Happening with the Ordination of Women Pastors, and if the Union has the right, was it out of line? Did they need to change the bylaws first?

By Dr. Gary Patterson

http://www.atoday.org/article/1297/colum...f-women-pastors

[Woody]

I think this states it all:

"The General Conference has overstepped its bounds in seeking to tell the unions that they may or may not ordain women to the gospel ministry. It is not within the authority of the General Conference to take such action"

[Woody]

Analysis of What is Happening with the Ordination of Women Pastors, and if the Union has the right, was it out of line? Did they need to change the bylaws first?

By Dr. Gary Patterson

http://www.atoday.org/article/1297/colum...f-women-pastors

To answer your question Stan - Yes ... I would say that if the General Conference wants to impose their will on who the Unions ordain - the GC needs to change it's bylaws.

[Alchemy]

Analysis of What is Happening with the Ordination of Women Pastors, and if the Union has the right, was it out of line? Did they need to change the bylaws first?

By Dr. Gary Patterson

http://www.atoday.org/article/1297/colum...f-women-pastors

I don't at all see where the GC over stepped its bounds. It is the unions, such as the CUC, PUC and Northern Germany that have way over stepped their bounds.

They have clearly declared their wish to separate from the world family with these unBiblical decisions.

[Tom Wetmore]

No, they have not clearly stated a wish to separate. Quite to the contrary. They have affirmed that they are a part of the world family and a desire to remain a part of the world family. (What about the church in China? Are they a part of the world family since they have been ordaining women for a long time?)

The suggestion of separation has come from those opposed to WO. Had separation been the objective, it would have happened long ago. Those who have been supporting WO have stayed with the Church for decades despite delay and inaction on the issue. It is only when there is movement forward toward WO that those in opposition start talking of separation.

And then there is the false charge of the decisions being unBiblical...

Read the article very carefully. It is all about church authority, who has it and who has it for what actions, and who does not.

[olger]

Using China as a driving example to support WOPE in NAD overlooks the different circumstances in both areas.

I am told that China had a lack of qualified male leaders due to persecution, thus creating a vacuum for church leadership.

The NAD is pursuing this line for two different reasons.

1) A desire to be like other liberal churches.

2) America is under a different kind of persecution, a more subtle one based on a feminist worldview. In this worldview, male leadership is

regarded as oppressive.

Rejoice always,

`G

[CoAspen]

>The NAD is pursuing this line for two different reasons.

1) A desire to be like other liberal churches.

2) America is under a different kind of persecution, a more subtle one based on a feminist worldview. In this worldview, male leadership is

regarded as oppressive.<

An opinion, not based on any facts!

Still having trouble with women 'not in their place'!

[olger]

I have trouble with anyone seeking a place they weren't designed for.

[Gordon1]

Overall, this movement pits women against men.

It seeds dissension & division where God wished us to work together in His specific order, even as one flesh.

It's the wrong solution, simply following worldly policy of "women's rights.

"The world has converted the church."

[CoAspen]

So...what exactly were women designed for?

[olger]

Overall, this movement pits women against men.

It seeds dissension & division where God wished us to work together in His specific order, even as one flesh.

It's the wrong solution, simply following worldly policy of "women's rights.

"The world has converted the church."

CHA-CHING !!!

[olger]

So...what exactly were women designed for?

They were perfectly designed by God to occupy a role in cooperation to men, not in competition to them. Both of us were designed to glorify God, and one cannot glorify Him when they are seeking glory from the world.

`oG

[CoAspen]

Co operation, okay, sounds excellent!

Glorify God, okay, sounds excellent!

So the question remains, can women be in co operation with God also? If yes, then why do some feel that being an ordained minister is competition with men? Why do some feel that being ordained ministers is 'seeking glory from the world'?

The church has never said that women are not called of God, the same as men, but that some do not want them as pastors, in all capacity. The church has only come out against it, recently, citing 'unity'. The question has been 'put aside' for many years with out Biblical prohibition.

Either women have the same spiritual capacity as men or they don't. Physical characteristics have nothing to do with being called by God. When we decide to what women are not spiritually able to do, we are in a position of speaking for God.

Remember the church.org has never said WO forbidden by God, so don't go down that road again for an answer. Maybe you believe the .org is wrong in not saying that, if so, state it!

[Alchemy]

No, they have not clearly stated a wish to separate. Quite to the contrary. They have affirmed that they are a part of the world family and a desire to remain a part of the world family. (What about the church in China? Are they a part of the world family since they have been ordaining women for a long time?)

The suggestion of separation has come from those opposed to WO. Had separation been the objective, it would have happened long ago. Those who have been supporting WO have stayed with the Church for decades despite delay and inaction on the issue. It is only when there is movement forward toward WO that those in opposition start talking of separation.

And then there is the false charge of the decisions being unBiblical...

Read the article very carefully. It is all about church authority, who has it and who has it for what actions, and who does not.

The Seventh-day Adventist Church has never ordained one woman in China! The Seventh-day Adventist Church doesn't have any structure or organization to speak of in China.

These ordinations have been approved by the government and the church can't do anything about it.

So, let's pray for God's Word to accomplish all God intended in China.

But, China is not an example of church sponsored ordination of woman.

[Alchemy]

There just any issue for women to claim in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Women's ministries thrive in this church and have done so for many decades. Women have even served in pastoral roles under their pastor husbands and Ellen White was strong in assuring these women got paid from the tithe the same as their husbands.

All of this has been addressed without the ordination of women as Pastors or Elders.

Now! All of a sudden! It's not good enough. Women must ordained the same as the men. Why?!?

Maybe one explanation is the IRS in the United States won't exempt them from taxes like the men. Also, maybe they want the same authority as a man.

Hmmm...

Biblical support please.

[Tom Wetmore]

The Seventh-day Adventist Church has never ordained one woman in China! The Seventh-day Adventist Church doesn't have any structure or organization to speak of in China.

These ordinations have been approved by the government and the church can't do anything about it.

So, let's pray for God's Word to accomplish all God intended in China.

But, China is not an example of church sponsored ordination of woman.

Untrue.

Direct testimony of the membership in China confirms that it has significant organization and that the ordinations that they recognize were done by the body of Adventist believers in China and not the government. That their structure is different from ours is rather beside the point.

The Seventh-day Adventist Church (General Conference) recognizes that it has nearly a half million members in China. The Church exists where it has members.

[Stan]

There are really two different Adventist Organizations in China, (Russia used to have 3 at one time, merging those took power and prayer)

here is one of them

http://chumadventist.org/chi/index.php

I do not recall the other one, they did provide some great hospitality to me when I was in Beijing a few months ago.

[Gordon1]

Originally Posted By: Alchemy

The Seventh-day Adventist Church has never ordained one woman in China! The Seventh-day Adventist Church doesn't have any structure or organization to speak of in China.

These ordinations have been approved by the government and the church can't do anything about it.

So, let's pray for God's Word to accomplish all God intended in China.

But, China is not an example of church sponsored ordination of woman.

Untrue.

Direct testimony of the membership in China confirms that it has significant organization and that the ordinations that they recognize were done by the body of Adventist believers in China and not the government. That their structure is different from ours is rather beside the point.

The Seventh-day Adventist Church (General Conference) recognizes that it has nearly a half million members in China. The Church exists where it has members.

Tom, you claim Alchemy's statements are untrue.

1) He didn't claim there was no organization in the Chinese church, but rather implied that it was not under General Conference direction or control, and further, he stated that the SDA GC has not ordained any women in China.

2) Nor did Alchemy claim that ordinations were done by the government, but simply that they were government approved or permitted.

So obviously the church members carried out the ordinations. But this does not imply any connection with the SDA General Conference.

3) If the Chinese church structure is different, this will be a significant indication that they are independent from the General Conference.

4) Yes, the Seventh-day Adventist Church may recognize (and claim) half a million members in China.

But what do the Chinese believers say?

Do they recognize the SDA General Conference? Possibly not.

Perhaps like Ellen White they seek to distance themselves as far as possible from the GC.

5) The fact that Stan received Christian hospitality from the Chinese believers does not mean they recognize the SDA General Conference.

Maybe they told Stan "We want to keep our freedom."

6) Would you care to offer a report on your China trip, Stan? It might spare some speculation. If you've already posted such, could you provide a link?

[Gordon1]

There are really two different Adventist Organizations in China..

What are the main distinctions between these two?

[jasd]

>>"The world has converted the church."<<

One may hardly make this argument whilst supporting that which has incorporacted itself to become - literally - an entity, a creature of the State; that is, Caesar's.

As I recall, that which is Gd's belongeth to Gd - and not to Caesar.

For a .org to go on knowingly and sublimely as a creature of the State rather than that of Gd - can be put no more kindly than - it is wanton wrongheadedness.

Whilst suffering from the malady of wrongheadedness - the .Org cannot legitimately recourse to Biblical arguments against this or that as pertain women in the church.

Lastly, it is a pejorative argument to label what is a long overdue recognition of the women's role in the church by characterizing it as a struggle for 'women's rights' or 'feminism' - as those terms are more readily associated with secular determinations - and not Gdly pursuits.

[CoAspen]

I see an announcement in the Review that the committee is ready to start the study of WO again with results in 2014, requested in 2010.

Considering how many times this subject has been studied, will waiting another 2yrs change anything already studied. I wonder if they have ever heard of meta-data analyis??

Might save some time....or is that not the issue??

[ClubV12]

...just passing through...

Korah, Dathan and Abiram thought they were doing the Lords work. They were sincere in their rebellion against divinely appointed authority and leadership. Moses and the leaders/priests he in turn appointed, the channels by which rules, laws, organization were sustained.

Korah did not seek to be separate from that authority, he just wanted to have a say in how it was structured. He was sincere-ly mistaken, and knew it not until the earth swallowed him and his followers up.

I see the same parallel here with the Unions wanting to decide the matter for themselves, having run out of patience with leadership. Out of patience with leadership? How many times do we see that in the history of the Israelites? Satan is well pleased with such open rebellion...

The G.C. remains to this day, when in session and properly represented by men and women from around the world, the highest authority on earth.

Here is the patience of the Saints, or,,, is it?

[Alchemy]

Excellent post, ClubV12

[monty]

Korah's rebellion was accompanied by physical manifestations of God's support of Moses leadership. This was available for all to observe and make their choice as to which side they would be on. Also this event was accompanied by Moses humility and lack of politicalization. The former which is largely lacking and the latter which is rampant in the way the SDA church is run today. This is a poor Biblical analogy!

[ClubV12]

We have sufficient evidence of the divine providence to indicate the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the last day Church raised up by the Father with the last message to mankind. We have nothing to fear for the future except we forget how this Church has been led in the past.

The Father will not remove every avenue of doubt, there are many hooks upon which to hang your doubts.

Korah's rebellion is applicable to the split in the leadership the Church is now experiencing. Men and women, who want to have a say in the structure of leadership, how things get done, who decides.

The issue could be some other topic they disagree with, it happens to be ordination. Rebellion is rebellion. This could be about where the tithe is spent, abortion issues, gay Pastors, any number of things. Ordination is just a smoke screen a red herring, reason from cause to effect, this IS rebellion.