Analysis of What is Happening with the Ordination of Women Pastors

[Gail]

Thanks, Johann, for your input here. I appreciate your comments and nice to see you!

[Johann]

Thank you, Gail. Will see how long I manage.

[ClubV12]

Johann,

Perhaps I misunderstand your comment, here it is,

"He still hates to read in her writings that women should be ordained and sent out into the homes of people with the Gospel. Just watch and see how many opponents will try to deny the truth that I am giving to you."

Do you mean to say that Ellen Whites writings are clear that women should be ordained? If this is what you mean to say, count me among those "many opponents" who will deny this lie you present as truth. The best lies always contain a large percentage of truth, and your post is no exception. Women should indeed preach, teach, go to homes with the gospel, be bible workers, missionairies and even prophets, as the Lord leads them. And as the Church should encourage them, but this does not mean they should be ordained.

It is grossly misleading, indeed, it is a serious lie, to proclaim that Sister Whites writings or the bible itself is "clear" on the issue of womens ordination. If it was clear, we wouldn't be having this discussion!

[Johann]

Because we have too many people in the church who do not read for themselves, just claim what they think Ellen White should have said to agree with them. This was the problem Ellen White had with the General Conference President in 1888. He wrote to Ellen and lamented that she did not agree with him. After all he was the president,so of course she should support him.

Pray about it. Discover the Truth for yourself. Do not let others tell you what it is.

[ClubV12]

Johann, Sister White had many occasions where she had "no comment" or took no definitive position. Such is the case with the Holy Spirit, the 144,000, the "daily" of Daniel, on the support of James Whites view of Daniel 11 and on the issue of ordination. None of the above issues can be completely resolved with her writings. I will not engage in speculation, these issues are simply not clear to those who will come with a humble, teachable spirit in search of truth.

Yet, EACH of the above issues have been declared by somebody, someplace at sometime to be "clearly presented" as "proof" of just where Sister White really stood on that issue. Fools rush in...

One thing I see that troubles me is so much talk of how women have been preachers, even licensed ministers, evangelists, prophets, leaders, teachers, bible workers as if this somehow suggests they should be ordained. Women SHOULD be involved in all of the above, but once again, that doesn't mean they need to be ordained to do it! Anymore than a "layman" (literally man or woman) could do all of the above, without being formally ordained.

[Johann]

Johann, Sister White had many occasions where she had "no comment" or took no definitive position. Such is the case with the Holy Spirit, the 144,000, the "daily" of Daniel, on the support of James Whites view of Daniel 11 and on the issue of ordination. None of the above issues can be completely resolved with her writings. I will not engage in speculation, these issues are simply not clear to those who will come with a humble, teachable spirit in search of truth.

Yet, EACH of the above issues have been declared by somebody, someplace at sometime to be "clearly presented" as "proof" of just where Sister White really stood on that issue. Fools rush in...

One thing I see that troubles me is so much talk of how women have been preachers, even licensed ministers, evangelists, prophets, leaders, teachers, bible workers as if this somehow suggests they should be ordained. Women SHOULD be involved in all of the above, but once again, that doesn't mean they need to be ordained to do it! Anymore than a "layman" (literally man or woman) could do all of the above, without being formally ordained.

It is good that you also have a forum where you can present your problems with the Spirit of Prophecy. Doesn't that teach us humility?

[Tom Wetmore]

Yet, EACH of the above issues have been declared by somebody, someplace at sometime to be "clearly presented" as "proof" of just where Sister White really stood on that issue. Fools rush in...

One thing I see that troubles me is so much talk of how women have been preachers, even licensed ministers, evangelists, prophets, leaders, teachers, bible workers as if this somehow suggests they should be ordained. Women SHOULD be involved in all of the above, but once again, that doesn't mean they need to be ordained to do it! Anymore than a "layman" (literally man or woman) could do all of the above, without being formally ordained.

Do you think women should, or could, be ordained for any of those roles?

[ClubV12]

No, I do not support ordination for women for any position. I certainly support women fulfilling, being involved in, undertaking any of those positions. Not only support the concept, encourage it!

Johann, I have no problem with the Spirit of Prophecy in any capacity. I believe Ellen White was not only an inspired prophet but more than that, an inspired messenger. Her work is similiar to many people we see in the bible record, another voice, for a specific time, raised up by God to address His people. There are many things the bible does not comment on, just like Ellen White, it's position is not always clear.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

No, I do not support ordination for women for any position.

Are you speaking of 'man made' ordination or 'God' ordination?

Which to you is more important?

What does 'ordination' mean to you?

[ClubV12]

Without a doubt, no question, I'm speaking of man's ordination. Ellen Whites advice to those who are brand new in the Church is not to wait for someone to educate them on what to do. She says, "Go right to work", for the Lord. Solid advice, don't wait for man to instruct or approve, just go right to work.

However, I do not take lightly the ordination by man, it is a solemn event and should be done only after much thought, approval and consideration of the candidate.

Mans, or we could say the Church, ordination is supposed to be recognition that the ordained person represents and speaks for the Church in a world wide capacity, in any country or State. When ordination is done through a Conference or Union and is not recognized by the General Conferenc, that is, the WORLD church, it is not a true ordination. It is ordination in a limited capacity.

We do not have to choose which is more important, man or God as it concerns ordination. It is not an either or question, it is both.

[Live4Him]

Quote:

Ellen told her brother about this experience in a letter she wrote to him. We still have her letter, but she does not tell how her companion explained the texts. I have full confidence in her and therefore I do not permit any doubts to trouble my mind.

I have to agree with some of the other posters on this point. I have no problem with EW preaching because I believe she was a prophet. I find women in scripture who were called by God for the same purpose.

Quote:

But I do know that when young king James gave a number of his theologians the task of making a new edition of the English Bible he instructed them not to make the wording of the new edition contradict the present doctrines of the Church of England, especially when it concerned the priesthood.

Please, please let's not go here. It distresses me when people belittle and try to undermine confidence in the protestant Bible. Many people were tortured and died so we could read a pure version of the scriptures and now a lot of theologians virtually spit on it as quaint and unreliable. I have heard the claim that king James orchestrated the KJV, what people fail to understand is there was a committee of puritan scholars who also helped in the translation. At the time the puritans were being hunted down and arrested for worshiping outside of the church of England. The KJV Bible was actually a suggestion of the puritans and king James jumped on it as a way to ease tensions. I highly doubt the puritans would have participated in the translation and adopted it and brought it to the new world if there was deliberate corruption in it. They already rejected the corrupt Bible the church of England was using at the time.

One last point I would like to mention is that the verses I posted cannot be just a corrupt mistranslation because if you look them up in the NIV or ESV which are both based on different manuscripts than the KJV and done by a much different type of translator, they say exactly the same thing.

[Live4Him]

so this means the women should not even be school teachers? Sabbath School teachers? University teachers?

[Tom Wetmore]

When ordination is done through a Conference or Union and is not recognized by the General Conferenc, that is, the WORLD church, it is not a true ordination. It is ordination in a limited capacity.

And yet, you do not accept that it was the General Conference that recognized Ellen White as an ordained minister. Was that action of the General Conference not a true ordination?

[Johann]

No, I do not support ordination for women for any position.

So Ellen White was all wrong when she wrote the following:

[Tom Wetmore]

No, I do not support ordination for women for any position. I certainly support women fulfilling, being involved in, undertaking any of those positions. Not only support the concept, encourage it!

I appreciate your direct honesty. But you need to carefully consider this quote from Ellen White:

Quote:

Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands. In some cases they will need to counsel with the church officers or the minister; but if they are devoted women, maintaining a vital connection with God, they will be a power for good in the church. This is another means of strengthening and building up the church. We need to branch out more in our methods of labor. Not a hand should be bound, not a soul discouraged, not a voice should be hushed; let every individual labor, privately or publicly, to help forward this grand work. Place the burdens upon men and women of the church, that they may grow by reason of the exercise, and thus become effective agents in the hand of the Lord for the enlightenment of those who sit in darkness. [Emphasis added.] {RH, July 9, 1895 par. 8}

[Tom Wetmore]

And then there is this one:

Quote:

There are women who should labor in the gospel ministry. In many respects they would do more good than the ministers who neglect to visit the flock of God. Husband and wife may unite in this work, and when it is possible, they should. The way is open for consecrated women.--5MR 325, 326.

By the way, what does the word "consecrated" mean?

Did you know that the term "consecration" was used in her day the same as "ordination"?

[CoAspen]

Quote:

We do not have to choose which is more important, man or God as it concerns ordination. It is not an either or question, it is both.

Thanks, then we will dissagree! I see God as always being the more important, always!! Man is a far second. Man can never go before God and it would be presumptious for mankind to presume that whatever God ordains must get approval from man or be in concert with mankinds opinion.

[ClubV12]

The G.C, recognized Sister White was a messenger of God, a prophet. She was also a licensed minister as were other women of her time, as is the case today. Being licensed does not mean being ordained, for men or women. Being consecrated does not mean being ordained.

If the matter was as perfectly clear from a R.H. quote as you suggest it is Tom, it would have been solved in the 1800's and women would be ordained then and now. There are many quotes one can find that if taken alone and by themselves lead people to an incorrect position. The SOP is no different than the bible in that regard, it is dangerous and foolish to base your theological position on a single verse or quote.

[Live4Him]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

When ordination is done through a Conference or Union and is not recognized by the General Conferenc, that is, the WORLD church, it is not a true ordination. It is ordination in a limited capacity.

And yet, you do not accept that it was the General Conference that recognized Ellen White as an ordained minister. Was that action of the General Conference not a true ordination?

Did you also realize that she refused this ordination? a few years ago someone produced an authentic looking ministers license for Ellen White from the church. Turns out one of the members on the forum proved it was a fraud. I don't recall ever seeing that poster post on that forum again. I personally emailed the EGW estate asking if EW was ever an ordained minister and they assured me that she had turned down ordination.

[Live4Him]

And then there is this one:

Quote:

There are women who should labor in the gospel ministry. In many respects they would do more good than the ministers who neglect to visit the flock of God. Husband and wife may unite in this work, and when it is possible, they should. The way is open for consecrated women.--5MR 325, 326.

By the way, what does the word "consecrated" mean?

Did you know that the term "consecration" was used in her day the same as "ordination"?

[debbym]

Quote:

Not Scriptural, Johann.

in all sincerity,

neither is it scriptural for a woman to pray without her head covered, or for any woman to speak aloud in church... and various other things.

come on lets get to the principles.

debbym

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

in all sincerity,

neither is it scriptural for a woman to pray without her head covered, or for any woman to speak aloud in church... and various other things.

debbym

so...why do women do it?

seems as if people want to pick and choose which scripture they wish to follow and which not to follow...

[Woody]

Quote:

Not Scriptural, Johann.

in all sincerity,

neither is it scriptural for a woman to pray without her head covered, or for any woman to speak aloud in church... and various other things.

come on lets get to the principles.

debbym

[debbym]

Quote:

Poster: rudywoofs

Subject: Re: Analysis of What is Happening with the Ordination of Women Pastors

Quote:

Originally Posted By: debbym

in all sincerity,

neither is it scriptural for a woman to pray without her head covered, or for any woman to speak aloud in church... and various other things.

debbym

so...why do women do it?

seems as if people want to pick and choose which scripture they wish to follow and which not to follow...

i heard the word Hermeneutics thrown around and the word exegesis. Apparently there is rhyme and reason to how they extrapolate the "truth" from scripture. it seems the early proof text method used by those who have not been to seminary is discounted as faulty, yet is held in a death grip by many who believe they must hold tight or they will lose their soul. then there is the historical, and various contextual approaches, and the greek hermaneutics, and Catholic hermaneutics, and early and late Protestant. And more and more. Be careful if you aspire to think.

And then some embrace the post modern world we live in with it's pluralism, and everything goes.

And there remains the word of God speaking faith, hope and life to human hearts as life as we know it would destroy faith and suffocate sincere life out of us all.

Thank God we have spiritual men and women showing that we can live for something other then ourselves, and be an instrument of Christ, the source of healing, empowerment, and peace to our world.

God will reach this world and bless through anyone willing to be used, in spite of whether we will see our way through this ordination issue or how we do it.

Somethings over time in the scriptures do change. God does not change. Societies change, and traditions, and social norms do change. I think this needs to be carefully understood. the arrival of post modernism is a change, and it does not make society any more or less righteous then it has ever been. We remain dependent on The mercy of a Holy and Righteous God, and the provision of the Holy Spirit speaking through the Word of God for our daily life. Jesus sees all of this, and is fully prepared to meet every change, issue and need as it arrives, including dementia, which if we get old enough will likely be one more change we deal with.

smiles

debbym

[Johann]

Hermeneutics seems to be still relevant in connection with the Ordination Study Committee. How many adhere to the hermeneutics officially adopted by the General Conference? Will those hermeneutics be revised in this connection?

We have mentioned the hermeneutics of Samuelle Bacchiocchi. It appears like he followed SDA typology from the beginning, but when he discovered that this type of hermeneutics actually allowed the ordination of female pastors, then he had to make an amendment to his hermeneutics where he could be in tune with Roman Catholic doctrines of male priesthood alone, as well as his male headship doctrine.

Then he discovered that his new amendment in order to be in tune also with generally accepted SDA principles, as he understood them, required that we keep the Jewish Passover and other Jewish holidays. Some of us remember how he explained that in his news letters. And some of us have in fresh knowledge how people associated with him would visit our churches, trying to convince us of these teachings.

Bacchiocchi never managed to convince any other influential people in the SDA church but he did have some fellowship with Sabbath keeping people in another denomination. But it appears that a number of SDA accepted part of his hermeneutics sana the Jewish holidays. And some of these problems remain with us unsolved, not the least because they are being influenced through TV preaching.