The Bible Says Christ Rose Early Saturday Morning

[John317]

Can you elaborate how were you able to arrive at your conclusion, brother?

Sure. The Greek title of Psalm 47 (48 in the KJV) reads, "A Psalm of praise for the sons of Core on the second day of the week." "Second day of the week" is deutera sabbatou.

The Greek title of Psalm 93 (94 in the KJV) reads, "A Psalm of David for the fourth day of the week." "Fourth day of the week" is tetradi sabbatou.

The above shows very strong evidence that in the time of Christ, "sabbatou" and "sabbaton" were a common way of referring to the "week" since there are seven days in the weekly cycle.

We have further evidence of this in the Didache, which was written between 50 and 120 AD:

Look, for instance, at section 8, "Of fast-days and prayer."

It reads, "Do not keep the same fast-days as the hypocrites. Mondays and Thursdays are their days for fasting, so yours should be Wednesdays and Fridays."

In the Greek original, "Mondays" reads deutera sabbaton, that is, second day of the week.

"Thursdays" is pempth, literally, "fifth [day of the week]"; Wednesday is tetrada, fourth [day of the week]"; and "Fridays," or "sixth days" is paraskeuhn, literally, "preparation."

Chapter 8. Fasting and Prayer (the Lord's Prayer). But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week. Rather, fast on the fourth day and the Preparation (Friday).

Source: http://www.earlychurchtexts.com/public/didache.htm

"But as for your fasts, let them not be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and fifth days of the week, but do ye fast on the fourth and sixth days."

Source: http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/did/did03.htm

"8:1 And let not your fastings be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and the fifth day of the week;

8:2 But do you keep your fast on the fourth and on the preparation day."

Source: http://www.orthodox.cn/patristics/apostolicfathers/didache_en.htm

The 8th section of the Didache is not talking about fasting on sabbaths but rather on various days of the week, a fact that is shown by the reference to Fridays as paraskeuhn.

[Gail]

I really appreciated having people here who actually know Greek.

Thanks! :)

[Gail]

A heart set on love will do no wrong- Confucius ---Gail's signature line

... sometimes it's confusing, if a heart is set on right, that love won’t do a thing.

It can be, for sure!

[John317]

...Can you elaborate how were you able to arrive at your conclusion, brother?

To the evidence already given, I would like to add the translation of Mark 16: 1,2, and 9 and John 20: 1 by Richmond Lattimore, the greatest modern translator of the Greek classics. He made translations not only of the NT but also of all the Greek classics, such as the Odyssey and the Iliad of Homer, and the plays of Euripides, Aeschylus, Aristophanes, etc. His texts are the ones most often found in the bookstores and used in the colleges where courses in the Greek classics are taught. He also taught Greek texts and translation for decades at some of the country's best universities.

Lattimore translated Mark 16: 1,2 and 9 this way:

And when the sabbath was over, .... And very early on the first day of the week they went to the tomb.... [9] Then after he had arisen early on the first day of the week...

John 20: 1-- "Early on the first day of the week, when it was still dark...."

As Lattimore says in his introduction to the Gospels, he kept as close to the Greek as possible.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Can you elaborate how were you able to arrive at your conclusion, brother?

Sure. The Greek title of Psalm 47 (48 in the KJV) reads, "A Psalm of praise for the sons of Core on the second day of the week." "Second day of the week" is deutera sabbatou.

The Greek title of Psalm 93 (94 in the KJV) reads, "A Psalm of David for the fourth day of the week." "Fourth day of the week" is tetradi sabbatou.

[John317]

Lattimore translated Mark 16: 1,2 and 9 this way:

And when the sabbath was over, .... And very early on the first day of the week they went to the tomb.... [9] Then after he had arisen early on the first day of the week...

John 20: 1-- "Early on the first day of the week, when it was still dark...."

As Lattimore says in his introduction to the Gospels, he kept as close to the Greek as possible.

Originally Posted By: Gerhard

Lattimore saying in his introduction to the Gospels, he kept as close to the Greek as possible, says with the word possible, that he could not translate other than what he understood or believed.

That's incorrerct. He means that he kept it as close to the Greek as he possibly could without making it either hard to understand or ugly to the ear when read aloud. Those are two objectives of any good translator of the Bible. If a translation is too literal, it can cause problems for the reader. As an experienced translator, Lattimore naturally wanted to avoid them.

[Samie]

The best Greek translators in the world can NEVER supplant with their translation the day Scriptures explicitly say when Christ resurrected. Not because someone whom the world considers the best in Greek translation believed that "sabbatou" is "week" means it is truth.

That "sabbatou" refers to "week" is a creation of the Roman Catholic Church and swayed the world into believing long, long before Lattimore was even born. Lattimore honestly believed the lie the RC Church perpetrated, and translated the "sabbatou" of Mark 16:9 into "week" believing it is right. He could not do otherwise. Sadly, Lattimore is no longer around to correct the error he honestly believed in.

The Latin Vulgate had been very consistent in its translation of the Hebrew "shabbath", into "sabbati" or "sabbatum".

Here's the list for "sabbati": Exod 16:23; 20:8, 10f; 35:3; Lev 23:3, 11, 15; Num 15:32; 28:9; Deut 5:12, 14f; 2 Kgs 16:18; 2 Chr 23:8; Neh 10:31; 13:15, 17, 19, 22; Ps 23:1; 47:1; 91:1; 93:1; Jer 17:21f, 24, 27; Ezek 46:1, 4, 12;

Here's the list for "sabbatum": Exod 16:25f, 29; 31:13ff; 35:2; Lev 16:31; 23:3, 24, 32, 39; 25:2, 4; 2 Kgs 4:23; 11:9; 2 Chr 23:5, 8; 36:21; Neh 9:14; 13:18f; Hos 2:11; Amos 8:5; Isa 1:13; 56:2, 6; 58:13; 66:23; Lam 2:6

The Greeks derived their "sabbaton" from the Hebrew "shabbath". The Septuagint consistently translated the Hebrew "shabbath" in the above list into the corresponding cases of "sabbaton".

Never had the Septuagint nor the Vulgate translated the Hebrew "shabbath" into anything else that can be misconstrued for "week". The Vulgate translated the Hebrew "shabuah", a period of 7 days or one week, into "ebdomade" in Gen 29:27, "ebdomadem" in Gen 29:28 and "ebdomas" in Dan 9:27. The Septuagint translated "shabuah" into "hebdoma" in Gen 29:27, 28, and "hebdomadas" in Dan 9:27. It is interesting to note that Latin and Greek have identical word for "week", one which is so entirely different from the Latin "sabbati" or the Greek "sabbatou" that even the uninitiated can readily distinguish. The overwhelming evidence in Scripture tells us "sabbatou" refers to "sabbath" not to "week".

It is the handiwork of the Roman Catholic Church why the world, and even Sabbath-keepers, now honestly believe that "sabbatou" is "week" and I can't blame those who come running to her aid to defend what she had deftly orchestrated, believing it is truth.

But the lie is now exposed and truth must prevail.

[John317]

Lattimore translated Mark 16: 1,2 and 9 this way:

And when the sabbath was over, .... And very early on the first day of the week they went to the tomb.... [9] Then after he had arisen early on the first day of the week...

John 20: 1-- "Early on the first day of the week, when it was still dark...."

Originally Posted By: Gerhard

And my view ALLOWS THE BETTER AND PRECISE AND ONLY POSSIBLE LITERAL AND CORRECT translation of John 20:1 ---which the predominant traditional view FORBIDS and PREVENTED Lattimore to make.

That's an assumption you're making without any knowledge or evidence to support it. If you knew about Lattimore and his translations, you'd know that he wasn't influenced by "tradition."

Originally Posted By: Gerhard

The literal Greek is, prohï skotias eti ousehs. Skotias is a Noun, Possessive, therefore, being the early-OF-DARKNESS still which is dusk after sunset before proper dark-of-night.

In all due respect, you are wrong in your analysis and translation of the Greek in John 20: 1.

First of all, skotias is not possessive. It is genitive, and there are many types of genitive nouns. Genitive of possession is only one kind, and skotias in this instance is not possessive. In Greek grammar, it is called "genitive absolute." A similar construction is found in John 21: 4-- "And when morning had come, Jesus stood on the shore."

Notice that both the noun, skotias, and the participle, ousehs, agree in case, gender, and number. This conforms perfectly with the rules of Greek grammar.

John 20: 1, then, is telling us that Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb. The adverb "early" modifies the present participle ercheti [comes], and therefore is correctly translated, "comes early..." It was early on the first day of the week.

It isn't saying the darkness was early. It is saying Mary came early. That is to say, the events being described happened early in the morning.

In fact, the word proi (Strong's #4404] means "in the morning," "early," Matt. 16: 3. In Mark 13: 35 it refers to the morning watch, which ushers in the dawn. It obviously cannot refer to "dusk" as you claim.

The word ousehs is from the nominative form, eimi, to be, to exist. Here it is translated "being" or "while it was."

The adverb eti (Strong's #2089] means "yet, still."

Thus, "there being yet darkness."

The translation you suggest--- that Mary came to the tomb at dusk--- would contradict what the other Gospels say about the time the women came to the tomb.

Matthew 28: 1 says Mary came to the tomb just before dawn. Mark 16: 2 agrees that it was about the time when the sun arose. It says, "And very early... they come...."

So it wasn't dusk, shortly after sunset. Rather, it was dawn.

Luke 24: 1 agrees with the other Gospels by saying that the women came to the tomb "at early dawn."

[John317]

Hear what I am saying to you [samie] in all meekness myself being a Mr Nobody when it comes to the Greek, DONT pretend you know Greek or are able to translate it into English. You are worse than me, friend, and I am a sad case.

It's become obvious in this discussion that you are both sad cases when it comes to translation of the Greek. I can't believe that you guys think you are able to translate the NT better than people who've dedicated their lives to its translation. You'd be better off staying with the best published translations rather than trying to come up with your own.

[Gail]

That's incorrerct. He means that he kept it as close to the Greek as he possibly could without making it either hard to understand or ugly to the ear when read aloud. Those are two objectives of any good translator of the Bible. If a translation is too literal, it can cause problems for the reader. As an experienced translator, Lattimore naturally wanted to avoid them.

[Gail]

It's become obvious in this discussion that you are both sad cases when it comes to translation of the Greek. I can't believe that you guys think you are able to translate the NT better than people who've dedicated their lives to its translation. You'd be better off staying with the best published translations rather than trying to come up with your own.

Note- Interestingly this summer at Camp I spoke at length about Bible versions with one of our Conference's pastor and a translation scholar.

He told me a bit about the translations we offered, one-by-one, and schooled me a bit. It was a fascinating talk. He really wanted to buy our Hebrew OT, but said it was a bit too pricey for him at the time.

He did tell me that all of our Oxford translations (which will be the NRSVs and some others) were of excellent scholarship.

He did also tell me that when he researched the NIV he was surprised at the scholarship that produced it.

What he told me was nothing new to me, as it matched up with what John317 has been telling us over the years.

[Gail]

Moral of the story:

Be aware of the worldviews of the translators

Be also aware of what the differing translations are saying in differing instances. You may be surprised AND you may discover something in those other translations that you as SDA can use in your witness.

I think I will ask that pastor also about Lattimore and see what his input is, just out of curiosity's sake.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Gerhard

Hear what I am saying to you [samie] in all meekness myself being a Mr Nobody when it comes to the Greek, DONT pretend you know Greek or are able to translate it into English. You are worse than me, friend, and I am a sad case.

It's become obvious in this discussion that you are both sad cases when it comes to translation of the Greek. I can't believe that you guys think you are able to translate the NT better than people who've dedicated their lives to its translation. You'd be better off staying with the best published translations rather than trying to come up with your own.

Well said, John. Although admittedly, it made me a little bit sad.

I was merely pointing out the lie the overwhelming Scriptural evidence for which you cannot deny. NEVER did I think of being able to translate the NT better than Lattimore or the Sunday-keeping translators who equated "sabbatou" with "week". Not because a Microsoft client pointed out a bug in a Microsoft software means the client is better off in programming than the programmers of Bill Gates.

Now, back to the issue.

You offered the translation of the Douay version of some verses in Psalms as proof for concluding the translation of "sabbatou" to mean "week" is correct.

In my previous post, it was proven that the RC Church translators for the Douay version, translating from the Latin Vulgate, translated the "sabbati" of the Vulgate to favor the lie perpetrated by the church, instead of sticking to how the Vulgate translated the Greek "sabbatou" or the Hebrew "shabbath" to mean. Because elsewhere in the Vulgate, all other occurrences of "sabbati" is from the Hebrew "shabbath" and NEVER from "shabuah" which the Vulgate translated into "ebdomas" consistent with the Septuagint's "hebdomas". The Vulgate has "ebdomas" when it means "week" and "sabbati" for "sabbath".

It then becomes a wonder why the "sabbati" of the Vulgate in Psalms was translated to mean "week". And because the translation was done by the Sunday-keeping translators working for the Roman Catholic Church, the reason is obvious.

[Samie]

The Sunday-keeping translators translated "mia ton sabbaton" into "first day of the week", inserting the word "day" and equating the plural "sabbaton" into the singular "week". These same translators, applying rules of translation they themselves set, translated "mia ton paidiskon" into "one of the maids" (see Mk 14:66) and "mia ton sunagogon" into "one of the synagogues" (see Lk 13:10). It is not therefore against these same rules set and applied by the Sunday-keeping translators to translate "mia ton sabbaton" into "one of the Sabbaths", which can readily be seen as the literal meaning of the Greek phrase since "sabbaton" is derived from the Hebrew "shabbath" which always refers to "sabbath" and NEVER to "week".

Now, is the insertion of the word "day" and equating the plural "sabbaton" into the singular "week" resulting into "first day of the week", justified? The answer would be Yes, if and only if it can be shown that "first day of the week" = "one of the sabbaths" in that paschal week.

The question now arises, Is the first day of the week, Sunday, one of the Sabbaths in that paschal week? A sabbath can either be the weekly sabbath or a ceremonial sabbath. Sunday, the first day of the week, can never be a weekly sabbath, the 7th day of the week. But was it a ceremonial sabbath back then? Based on Scriptural accounts, Sunday was neither a ceremonial sabbath in that paschal week as well.

There is then no basis in Scriptures to justify translating "mia ton sabbaton" to mean "first day of the week".

[John317]

....May I just remind you that the Greek phrase in the Gospel verses you quoted from which the English phrase "first day of the week" is derived from, is "mia ton sabbaton" both in Mark 16:2 & Luke 24:1. "sabbaton" in those verses is plural.

See page 566 of Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, under sabbaton, section 2, Strong's #4521.

Originally Posted By: Samie

"mia ton sabbaton" is "one of the sabbaths". (Compare "mia ton paidiskon" translated "one of the maids" in Mk 14:66; and "mia ton sunagogon" translated "one of the synagogues" in Lk 13:10). Why do you think the translators translated "mia ton sabbaton" into "first day of the week"? We can only surmise.

Mia is the nominative singular feminine of heis, the masculine singular form found in the Lexicons.

"Mia" can either be a cardinal numeral, "one," or the ordinal,"first." In the latter case, it is used like the Hebrew word for "one", Heb. echad, i.e., it is put in place of the ordinal protos, first.

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, page 187, under Mia, Strong's #1520.

See also page 229, 230 of the Greek-English Lexicon by Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich.

See Strong's #3391-- "one or first"

Titus 3: 10-- "...after the first [Gk mia] and second admonition."

Acts 20: 7-- "Now on the first [Gk mia] [day] of the week..."

1 Cor 16: 2-- "Upon the first [Gk mia] [day] of every week..."

Originally Posted By: Samie

But you yourself can see the word "day" is inserted. There is no "hemera" in the verse. And "sabbaton" is "sabbath" not "week". And you very well know that koine Greek has "hebdomas" for "week".

In the Greek, the word "day" is assumed, which is the reason the writers left it out. There are many examples of this in the NT. For instance, John 19: 42 has, literally, "... because of the preparation of the Jews." The English translation is, "... because of the Jewish day of Preparation..."

Originally Posted By: Samie

Gospel writers wrote about Sabbath. As to why translators made it appear they wrote about the first day of the week, Sunday, is not for me to address.

Yes, they did write a lot about the Sabbath, but in the above instances, the Gospel writers and Paul were not writing about the Sabbath but were referring instead to the weekly 7-day cycle.

[John317]

You offered the translation of the Douay version of some verses in Psalms as proof for concluding the translation of "sabbatou" to mean "week" is correct.

In my previous post, it was proven that the RC Church translators for the Douay version, translating from the Latin Vulgate, translated the "sabbati" of the Vulgate to favor the lie perpetrated by the church, instead of sticking to how the Vulgate translated the Greek "sabbatou" or the Hebrew "shabbath" to mean.

No, Samie-- I offered you evidence from the LXX, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, which was made long before the existence of the Catholic Church and even longer before the Douay version.

[John317]

The Sunday-keeping translators translated "mia ton sabbaton" into "first day of the week", inserting the word "day" and equating the plural "sabbaton" into the singular "week". These same translators, applying rules of translation they themselves set, translated "mia ton paidiskon" into "one of the maids" (see Mk 14:66) and "mia ton sunagogon" into "one of the synagogues" (see Lk 13:10).

Samie, can you please explain the use of mia in the following verses, especially Titus 3: 10?

Titus 3: 10-- "...after the first [Gk mia] and second admonition."

(Should this be translated, "... after the one and second admonition..."? Or do you agree with the way it's translated in the KJV, NKJV, NASB, RSV, NIV, ESV, and in all the others?)

Acts 20: 7-- "Now on the first [Gk mia] [day] of the week..."

1 Cor 16: 2-- "Upon the first [Gk mia] [day] of every week..."

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

You offered the translation of the Douay version of some verses in Psalms as proof for concluding the translation of "sabbatou" to mean "week" is correct.

In my previous post, it was proven that the RC Church translators for the Douay version, translating from the Latin Vulgate, translated the "sabbati" of the Vulgate to favor the lie perpetrated by the church, instead of sticking to how the Vulgate translated the Greek "sabbatou" or the Hebrew "shabbath" to mean.

No, Samie-- I offered you evidence from the LXX, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, which was made long before the existence of the Catholic Church and even longer before the Douay version.

In Psalms, the Septuagint has "deutera sabbatou" and "tetradi sabbatou" which I don't question. It is the translation for it that I question. Why is "deutera sabbatou" "second day of the week" and not "second sabbath; why is "tetradi sabbatou" "fourth day of the week" and not "fourth sabbath"?

In the Septuagint, "sabbatou" is from the Hebrew "shabbath" from which the Greek "sabbaton" is derived and NEVER from "shabuah" which corresponds to the Greek "hebdomas", a period of 7 days and equivalent to one week. This is the justification from the the Greek and Hebrew Scriptures that led me to believe that in Psalms and elsewhere in the Septuagint "sabbatou" is "sabbath" and not "week".

What justification from the Septuagint itself can you provide that would warrant your translation of "sabbatou" to mean "week"?

[Samie]

John,

You can translate "mia" in any way you please, I have no issue regarding it, brother. The issue is not in the word "mia" but in the whole phrase in which it is related with "sabbaton" as in "mia ton sabbaton".

Just because "mia" is translated "first" in many instances in the Bible, it would justify translating "mia ton sabbaton" into "first day of the week"? What happens with the occurrences where "mia" is also translated into "one"? This explains why I have nothing against how you like "mia" to be translated, whether 'first' or 'one'. The issue is in the phrase.

You very well know that "sabbaton" (spelled with an omega) is noun genitive neuter plural common; it is "sabbatou" that is singular. Translating "mia ton sabbaton" into "one of the sabbaths" is not incorrect. What is suspect is equating the singular "week" for the plural "sabbaton", the way Sunday-keeping translators did in the resurrection verses.

I had shown in a previous post why the translation of "mia ton sabbaton" into "first day of the week" is Biblically untenable.

[Samie]

The hands of the master counterfeiter have been just uncovered manipulating the translation of "sabbaton" in all resurrection-related verses making the world believe that it means "week". Whereas Gospel writers were writing about the Sabbath in the resurrection verses, the resulting translation made them appear writing about Sunday and caused deception of the whole world.

1 Corinthians 15:33-34 33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God:

But there is still ample time. We still can awake to righteousness. Proclaim the truth and unmask the deceiver with his deception.

Honest Sunday-keepers who keep Sunday believing it is the resurrection day of the Savior, can now start keeping the Saturday Sabbath holy, for it is the day Scriptures say the Savior rose from the grave.

In Christ our Lord and Savior,

Samie

[John317]

Samie, you're basically out on your own in this notion, because whether you will believe or not, neither the biblical nor the historical evidence supports a Sabbath resurrection. Jesus slept in the grave on the Sabbath just as He rested on the first Sabbath in Eden. Besides, the Bible gives no support to the idea that God wants us to celebrate the resurrection by worshipping on a particular day, whether Sunday or Sabbath. It really is just another side-issue (among many others) to get God's remnant people off the really important issues, such as the Three Angels' Messages.

[John317]

...

Just because "mia" is translated "first" in many instances in the Bible, it would justify translating "mia ton sabbaton" into "first day of the week"? What happens with the occurrences where "mia" is also translated into "one"?

I showed the evidence that mia can be translated correctly as "first" because it was argued that mia means "one," not "first." It was used as evidence that the verses related to the resurrection were mistranslated.

Thousands of words in both Testaments are translated in different ways, depending on context. If you look up "heis" in Greek lexicons or dictionaries, you will see that "mia" is sometimes "equivalent to protos first Mt 20: 21; 1 Cor 16: 2; Titus 3: 10" (Shorter Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, Gingrich, page 61).

[Samie]

Samie, you're basically out on your own in this notion, because whether you will believe or not, neither the biblical nor the historical evidence supports a Sabbath resurrection.

[John317]

1 Corinthians 15:33-34 33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God:

But there is still ample time. We still can awake to righteousness.

How is believing that Christ rose from the grave on the Sabbath "awakening to righteousness"?

[John317]

Jesus slept in the grave on the Sabbath just as He rested on the first Sabbath in Eden.

Originally Posted By: Samie

This is your own notion, brother. You were equating the death of Christ to the rest in Eden for which you have no Biblically-endorsed paralellism to base on.

Can I conclude, then, that you don't accept Ellen White's prophetic ministry?

She wrote:

Quote:

Christ rested in the tomb on the Sabbath day, and when holy beings of both heaven and earth were astir on the morning of the first day of the week, He rose from the grave to renew His work of teaching His disciples. But this fact does not consecrate the first day of the week, and make it a Sabbath. Jesus, prior to His death, established a memorial of the breaking of His body and the spilling of His blood for the sins of the world, in the ordinance of the Lord's Supper, saying, "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come." 1 Corinthians 11:26. And the repentant believer, who takes the steps required in conversion, commemorates in his baptism the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. He goes down into the water in the likeness of Christ's death and burial, and he is raised out of the water in the likeness of His resurrection. . .to live a new life in Christ Jesus. {FLB 303.2}