BobRyan Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 The elelphant in the living room that is being ignored has more to do with breaking the structure of the SDA denomination than it does with Women's ordination. Once the wrong solution is pursued to a point - the can of worms is open regarding rebellion against the denomination rather than patiently waiting for the subject to take its course. How many "others" can not then make it through that same open door? in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 16, 2012 Administrators Posted October 16, 2012 Yes, many are sensing that the topic has changed. It's no longer about WO. It is about authority. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
BobRyan Posted October 16, 2012 Author Posted October 16, 2012 Not only authority - but the business of legitimizing the process of Unions having their own doctrine and practice regardless of the vote of the denomination itself. The question there is "where do you draw the line"? For example FB6 is about to get much more explicit in its affirmation of a real 7 day creation week. Suppose a given union decides to go rogue on that one as well - no matter what the vote is of the denomination? The same is true for the gay marriage idea and a host of other topics that might be pleasing to one union or another? Where does it end? in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Administrators Naomi Posted October 16, 2012 Administrators Posted October 16, 2012 Not only authority - but the business of legitimizing the process of Unions having their own doctrine and practice regardless of the vote of the denomination itself. The question there is "where do you draw the line"?For example FB6 is about to get much more explicit in its affirmation of a real 7 day creation week. Suppose a given union decides to go rogue on that one as well - no matter what the vote is of the denomination? The same is true for the gay marriage idea and a host of other topics that might be pleasing to one union or another? Where does it end? in Christ, Bob Good questions ... the door is more easily opened than closed after the fact Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God
BobRyan Posted October 16, 2012 Author Posted October 16, 2012 It it continues to meltdown going forward - then the GC should open "another door" to compensate. Allow local church members to give tithe to a GC controlled structure outside of their own union and conference. I believe the practice today is - that if a member does not like what their own union/conference is doing and they try to give tithe to the GC - it gets funneled back to their union and conference "anyway". Suppose that rule is lifted in the case of unions that are going their own way on doctrine or practice? in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted October 16, 2012 Author Posted October 16, 2012 The above post opening sentence "edited" IF it continues to meltdown going forward - then the GC should open "another door" to compensate. Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Gordon1 Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Yes, many are sensing that the topic has changed. It's no longer about WO. It is about authority. As several here have long maintained, the matter has always been about authority. The original challenge led to Lucifer's expulsion from Heaven. Quote
CoAspen Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Quote: .....the matter has always been about authority. Agree, wholeheartedly......authority of God or Man! Man speaks through edicts, rules, doctrines, proclamations, etc, but God speaks to the individual through the H*S. The SDA church was founded on the idea of leadership by God, not through a human replacement for Him such as the RC church has in place. For a long time the church has had a membership that sat back and accepted what ever the Men of the church said was of God and perhaps didn't 'listen' to voice of the H*S. But today, many, many are waking up realizing that God is their leader and each person has a responsibility to forward the Good News. This is something the .org was not prepared for, and others, so now we have this great 'concern' about doctrinal/cultural/traditional issues instead of Good News issues. Quote
CoAspen Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Quote: ...Lucifer's expulsion from Heaven. Quote: ..leading to homosexual ministers... Red herrings..... Quote
Woody Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Quote: ...Lucifer's expulsion from Heaven. Quote: ..leading to homosexual ministers... Red herrings..... Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
CyberGuy Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 It is reported that Ted Wilson when they were going to pray said. " All that agree with me please kneel with me." That kind of action makes it seem that instead of praying to our Crator God we are kneeling to give homage to Ted Wilson. That is spirtual bullying plain and simple That will not cause unity. That will cause anger and it will spread. This kind of bullying will be long remembered. Quote Riverside CA
Woody Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 amazing Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
CoAspen Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Quote: “The world Church cannot legitimize practices that clearly contradict the intent of General Conference Session actions. … Accordingly, the world Church does not recognize the actions of unions or conferences that have authorized or implemented ministerial ordination without regard to gender.” The above is from an article posted in the on-line review. From reading ,about the resolution passed, it is indeed about the authority of the church. Quote: . From General Conference Working Policy B 10 22: “All organizations and institutions throughout the world will recognize the authority of the General Conference Session as the highest authority of the Seventh-day Adventist Church under God.” I would suggest that much of the membership of he .org did not/have not understood this statement to be a part of the .org policy, I wasn't at least. I can not accept that it statement as it overrides the H*S speaking to individuals and is a leader to them. What is of note, is that the .org does not make a claim that WO is prohibited by the Bible or in EGW's writings. So the question remains.....who is in control of our lives...God or the .org? It can not be a 'little bit' of both! Sort of like the question, chicken or egg first! God or His product? Quote
olger Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 It is reported that Ted Wilson when they were going to pray said. " All that agree with me please kneel with me." This could be a case of assuming the worst from a minimum of information.. If so - not cool. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
BobRyan Posted October 18, 2012 Author Posted October 18, 2012 If the west wing is able to contain itself and not rush out the door with its own union agenda for evolution, gay marriage, etc etc - then I think we dodged a bullet with this Columbia Union fiasco. As Paul said in 1Cor 8 "I will never eat meat again if it causes my brother to stumble". One would think that this principle would have held up in the case of the entire denomination rather than taking actions designed to fracture the same. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
CoAspen Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 Quote: ......gay marriage,.... Red H alert! Red H alert!!! Come on...doesn't this 'gay agenda' scare tactic get a little old? Some of you all try to tie this into everything you disagree with! Is the true homophobia finally being seen?? Lets get back to topic!! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 18, 2012 Moderators Posted October 18, 2012 For a long time the church has had a membership that sat back and accepted what ever the Men of the church said was of God and perhaps didn't 'listen' to voice of the H*S. But today, many, many are waking up realizing that God is their leader and each person has a responsibility to forward the Good News. That is true, but if a person feels that the Holy Spirit is leading him or her to go against the doctrinal decisions of the SDA world church in General Conference, the correct thing is to leave the church. It isn't right to stay in the church and cause division. A person is free to teach and practice as they believe they should, but if it means opposing the main body of believers, they should separate. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 18, 2012 Moderators Posted October 18, 2012 ...Come on...doesn't this 'gay agenda' scare tactic get a little old? Some of you all try to tie this into everything you disagree with! Is the true homophobia finally being seen?? It's also a little old to accuse people of being homophobic simply because they oppose the gay agenda, which is to legitimize homosexuality and to have practicing gays accepted as church members and pastors. Many of the same arguments are being used to push the gay agenda as are being used to push for women as SDA elders and pastors. Pointing these things out has nothing to do with homophobia, but it has everything to do with following Bible truth. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 18, 2012 Moderators Posted October 18, 2012 It is reported that Ted Wilson when they were going to pray said. " All that agree with me please kneel with me." What/who was the source of this report? And what were the circumstances? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
CyberGuy Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 Do not know the circumstances. One source said Ted Wilson did say that. Another said Ted did say that but not at the Union discussion but at an earlier meetings some time in the past. I wish there were internet streaming like there was at the PUC session. Then all our questions on what was said and who said it and when would be clear. Circumstances. Do not know. Still those that were there when Ted said that said it was inappropriate for Ted Wilson to say that. It makes it appear anyone who does not agree with him is not christian and has no right to kneel to pray to God. As it is all we have is reports of people who heard Ted Wilson say that but not the circumstances on why Ted did that. I have heard the words "Spritual Abuse" Both times in describing what Ted Wilson did when he said that. It does not matter WHEN he said it and why. It should not be said as something like that will be taken wrong and taken to mean you are not a christain if you disagree with Ted Wilson and have no right to kneel to pray to God. Quote Riverside CA
CyberGuy Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 As far as sources is concerned. It came from elected conference personal who has contact with delegates who go to these GC meetings and report back to the conference what was said. So this is not idle gossip. Now I know that Ted is human and as a human makes terrible mistakes but just realize that Ted Wilson is not always doing what God wants. I see that some think that anything critical said of our leadership is an attack on themselves. Do not make that mistake. I am critical of church leadership when they make very public statements that affects us all. Ted Wilson seems to have a problem with his power he has has GC president and in my opinion is misusing it but I am NOT going to leave the church over that. Even the church leadership in Acts made terrible mistakes. James asked Paul to go to the temple and go through a Jewess ritual. It was there that Paul was recognized and arrested that lead to his eventual beheading. Ellen White said that the acts of the church leadership was cowardice caving in the the Judahizers who wanted the church to follow the cerialmonial laws of Moses that were abolished at the cross. We are the Ladiacan church. We are rich and increased in goods and feel we are in need of nothing not knowing we are spiritually naked and blind spiritually. So just be aware when I report on what is being said at these GC meetings I have contacts in the conference whose delegates report to them. This is not idle talk. Ted has a power issue that is bringing him into conflict with many Unions in the world church. Ted has always fought against womens ordination even when he was a Division president before he was GC president. Ted says to wait until the committee brings their report in 2014 but Ted Wilson has stacked that committee with his own people so we know what the result of the finding of that committee will be. It will say what Ted wants them to say. That is why many Unions will not wait until 2014 and do not trust that committee. Quote Riverside CA
BobRyan Posted October 18, 2012 Author Posted October 18, 2012 If the west wing is able to contain itself and not rush out the door with its own union agenda for evolution, gay marriage, etc etc - then I think we dodged a bullet with this Columbia Union fiasco. As Paul said in 1Cor 8 "I will never eat meat again if it causes my brother to stumble". One would think that this principle would have held up in the case of the entire denomination rather than taking actions designed to fracture the same. Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
olger Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 Forsooth, Bob. g Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
CoAspen Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 Plain and simple....a fear tactic not substantiated...except in a few minds! Quote
CyberGuy Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 Originally Posted By: BobRyan If the west wing is able to contain itself and not rush out the door with its own union agenda for evolution, gay marriage, etc etc - then I think we dodged a bullet with this Columbia Union fiasco. As Paul said in 1Cor 8 "I will never eat meat again if it causes my brother to stumble". One would think that this principle would have held up in the case of the entire denomination rather than taking actions designed to fracture the same. Originally Posted By: CoAspen Red H alert! Red H alert!!! Come on...doesn't this 'gay agenda' scare tactic get a little old? Some of you all try to tie this into everything you disagree with! Is the true homophobia finally being seen?? Lets get back to topic!! By contrast the facts are that the left-coast - west wing is already pushing for it. The question is an obvious one. Simply holding up the homophobia red herring does not address the issue. in Christ, Bob I live on the west coast in fact SoCal and I know that is not true. There are homosexual SDA churches here and they do pay tithe to the conference but they are not admitted into the sisterhood of churches because of their acceptance of homosexuals and openly homosexual pastors. So your fears are groundless. Homosexuals in the church are not an issue in our area yet. Quote Riverside CA
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