Elephant in the Room...

[BobRyan]

Woody,

Just like we can't say every word that proceeded from the mouth of Isaiah or Jeremiah was prophetic, we dare not say that every word that proceeded from the mouth of EGW was prophetic.

Nor do we make the conflict of the ages series and the Testimonies out of such trivia as "overheard at the dinner table... Ellen White said..."

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I could make the argument that the NT gift of prophecy is different than the OT office of prophecy.

Then you are at odds with James 2 where the significance of prophecy is stated to be based on "He who said".

And possibly at odds with 2Peter 1:20-21 saying that those moved by the Holy Spirit "speak from God".

Such that Paul can inform us that prophecy is indeed - by the Holy Spirit in 1Cor 12.

In 1Cor 14 Paul claims that prophecy is of such a sort as we find in the OT - that even if one is speaking - and another gets a message - the one speaking must immediately cease and let the other one proceed for God is in absolute control of it.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

[

Given that moral interconnection, it would be only a matter of time, if we follow the path of the Southern Baptist of reversing ourselves away from accepting/allowing women in pastoral ministry and leadership in the Church that we step back toward the dark ages

Seriously???

[JoeMo]

John,

Regarding EGW's infallibility, she also said:

"In regard to infallibility, I NEVER claimed it; God ALONE is Infallible." Selected Messages, Book One, pp 415 and 37

"Let no one come to the conclusion that there is no more truth to be revealed. The diligent, prayerful seeker for truth will find precious rays of light yet to shine forth from the word of God." Counsels on Sabbath School Work, p. 34

"There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make an error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. Review and Herald, December 20,1892

"We cannot hold that a position once taken, an idea once advocated, is not, under any circumstances, to be relinquished. There is but One who is infallible --- He is the way, the truth, and the life.

"If the pillars of our faith will not stand the test of investigation, it is time we knew it." Testimonies to Ministers, pp 105 and 107

"The Bible and the Bible alone, is our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this holy Word will be in harmony . . . Man is fallible, but God's Word is infallible.

"We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed.

"In regard to infallibility, I never claimed it; God alone is infallible. His word is true, and in Him is no variableness, or shadow of turning." Selected Messages, Book One, pp. 416 and 37.

"Our position and faith is in the Bible. . . . And never do we want any soul to bring in the Testimonies ahead of the Bible." Evangelism, p. 256

“We are not to accept the opinion of commentators as the voice of God; they are erring mortals like ourselves. God has given reasoning powers to us as well as to them. We should make the Bible its own expositor.

“We must study the truth for ourselves. No man should be relied upon to think for us. No matter who he is, or in what position he may be placed, we are not to look upon any man as a criterion for us. Testimonies to Ministers, pp. 106 and 110

“Whatever may be man’s intellectual advancement, let him not for a moment think that there is no need of thorough and continuous searching of Scripture for greater light. As a people we are called individually to be students of prophecy. We must watch with earnestness that we may discern any ray of light which God shall present to us. We are to catch the first gleamings of truth; and through prayerful study, clearer light may be obtained, which can be brought to others.

“Some of our leading brethren have frequently taken their position on the wrong side: and if God would send a message and wait for these older brethren to open the way for its advancement, it would never reach the people.

“The rebuke of the Lord will rest upon those who would bar the way, that clearer light shall not come to the people. . . . Let no one run the risk of interposing between the people and the message of heaven.” Gospel Workers, pp 300, 303, and 304.

A spirit of pharisaism has been coming in upon the people who claim to believe the truth for these last days. They are self-satisfied. They have said, “We have the truth. There is no more light for the people of God. But we are not safe when we take the position that we will not accept anything else than that upon which we have settled as truth. We should take the Bible, and investigate it closely for ourselves. We should dig in the mine of God’s word for truth.” Review and Herald, June 18, 1888.

We need to begin all over again. . . . Errors may be hoary with age; but age does not make error truth, nor truth error. Altogether too long have the old customs and habits been followed. The Lord would now have every idea that is false put away from teachers and students. We are not at liberty to teach that which shall meet the world’s standard or the standard of the church, simply because it is the custom to do so.” Testimonies for the Church, vol 6, p. 142.

[Gordon1]

Some men and women wish to see "all things done decently and in order." (1 Corinthians 14:40).

These are not murderous, but seeking peace without compromise of principle.

[jasd]

QR frame:

>>feminism and homosexuality<<

>>I'm not saying everyone who favors WO also favors homosexuality. But I know many who do favor both, […] Instead, I'm afraid we will be encouraging them to continue their sinful practices.<<

Unwarranted and unfortunate linkage between WO and feminism/Homosexuality.

Seems to me that the woman desiring to serve Gd in a manner she feels called - deserves encouragement, support, and acclamation - rather than disparagement or nullification.

This sort of disparagement does not deserve the pseudo-call of ‘unity’; better the .org revisit its dogmas.

>>the WO issue can be used by others to create a far bigger rift than the WO issue ever dreamed of being.<<

Then there should be more wisdom brought to the table when selecting issues that ought to be supported and issues that require all the resources of the assembly – to fight – rather than using WO as stalking horse.

[lazarus]

Then there should be more wisdom brought to the table when selecting issues that ought to be supported and issues that require all the resources of the assembly – to fight – rather than using WO as stalking horse.

WO is definitely being used as a proxy for all other issues; music, dress, preaching styles, cheese, pastors who don't wear ties, preaching from ipads, clapping in church, and so much more.

[Woody]

Excellent JoeMo. I'm glad that someone around here is a scholar and a gentleman.

[Woody]

Quote:

WO is definitely being used as a proxy for all other issues; music, dress, preaching styles, cheese, pastors who don't wear ties, preaching from ipads, clapping in church, and so much more.

I had not thought of this. But as I observe - it is entirely RIGHT ON.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: jasd

Then there should be more wisdom brought to the table when selecting issues that ought to be supported and issues that require all the resources of the assembly – to fight – rather than using WO as stalking horse.

WO is definitely being used as a proxy for all other issues; music, dress, preaching styles, cheese,

Well that is an interesting fantasy.

So far WO is WO until another conference/union decide to go rogue on something else and quickly figures out they can use the same open-barn-door that WO created.

Time will tell who will do it and what topic they will pick.

in Christ,

Bob

[JoeMo]

Thanks, Woody,

I'm glad to see there are some here with a clear and open mind. God is in a good mood; and He is in a good mood towards us and women pastors. Just as there is no circumcision or uncircumcision; there is no male or female. We are all children of God - even the non SDA's.

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

This is true for now.

The problem (and I am conducting research on this issue) is that feminism and homosexuality seem to share the same ethical trajectory. One indicator of this is what proponents of both have to say about each other (feminism and homosexuality).

Giving that moral interconnection, it is a matter of time until WO steps back and opens the door for homosexuality. It is coming, Sir.

Using this same "logic", many anti-feminists and those most voraciously opposed to women in ministry or leadership also practice and believe it is necessary and appropriate to use corporal punishment on a disobedient wife.

Given that moral interconnection, it would be only a matter of time, if we follow the path of the Southern Baptist of reversing ourselves away from accepting/allowing women in pastoral ministry and leadership in the Church that we step back toward the dark ages of the treatment of women. If you like that direction, sir, take a look at Muslim extremists....

Nice to see you snooping ADvindicate, Tom. Why don't you join the forum there? Love to have you.

[phkrause]

Thanks, Woody,

I'm glad to see there are some here with a clear and open mind. God is in a good mood; and He is in a good mood towards us and women pastors. Just as there is no circumcision or uncircumcision; there is no male or female. We are all children of God - even the non SDA's.

I'm in agreement with "God is in a good mood; and He is in a good mood towards us and women pastors. Just as there is no circumcision or uncircumcision; there is no male or female. We are all children of God - even the non SDA's." But not with your very first sentence. I believe all do see things with a clear and open mind! They might not see it the same way as you or I. People see things a little different, doesn't mean they are right and you are wrong, or that they are wrong and you are right. Lets take the Sabbath for instances! Some have no problem with taking a canoe trip, but there are others that would condemn that because they don't see it as an activity for the Sabbath. There are some that have no problem swimming on the Sabbath and there are those that are ready to condemn, etc. Each person has there walk with there Lord and Savior and are all at different places with that walk. So as I mentioned I'm in agreement with your second and third sentence, I am not in agreement with the first one.

[olger]

ok

[Gerr]

Quote:

.....the matter has always been about authority.

Agree, wholeheartedly......authority of God or Man!

Man speaks through edicts, rules, doctrines, proclamations, etc, but God speaks to the individual through the H*S.

Man is to rule by God speaking to individuals through the HS? --> CHAOS!!! You claim to be spirit-led; I claim to be spirit-led, and so thus yet another. And we ALL have opposing views!!! Now tell me who is to lead!!!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: CyberGuy

It is reported that Ted Wilson when they were going to pray said. " All that agree with me please kneel with me."

That kind of action makes it seem that instead of praying to our Crator God we are kneeling to give homage to Ted Wilson.

That is spirtual bullying plain and simple

That will not cause unity. That will cause anger and it will spread. This kind of bullying will be long remembered.

I was there. I was paying attention. I certainly do not recall hearing Ted say anything of the sort. And I am more than a little skeptical that he said it at any other gathering.

Thank you, Tom. I find it difficult for me to believe such a thing was uttered! But is there a transcript of what was said in that meeting?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Woody

I might differ with the EGW comment. It is just her opinion UNLESS she says "And I was shown". That makes a difference. If God shows her in vision ... it is something we need to pay attention to. If it is just her thoughts and opinions - that is different.

Ellen White denied that she ever wrote her mere opinions in articles and books for the church. She only wrote what she knew God wanted her to write. She wouldn't agree with the statement that "It is just her opinion UNLESS she says, 'And I was shown.'"

Prophets don't give their own messages; they give God's messages. If they give their own opinions, they're a false prophet.

[Woody]

Man is to rule by God speaking to individuals through the HS? --> CHAOS!!! You claim to be spirit-led; I claim to be spirit-led, and so thus yet another. And we ALL have opposing views!!! Now tell me who is to lead!!!

All leaders have error.

Having all Truth is not a requirement for having the Spirit.

[CyberGuy]

Originally Posted By: CyberGuy

Dwight Nelson of the Pioneer Memorial church came out in a sermon in favor of WO. He also spoke a few months before against homosexulatity and if one has a tendancey toward that he should maintain abstainance as scripture plainly teaches that those who practice same sex sex are going to lost.

So you see putting everyone who favors WO as favoring Homosexuality is simply untrue.

...I am not saying that some who favor WO favor Homosexuality. I am saying putting the whole WO camp into the homosexuality camp is untrue and unfair.

I'm not saying everyone who favors WO also favors homosexuality. But I know many who do favor both, and there seems to me to be a connection between these two viewpoints. For instance, I know that Friz Guy favors practicing homosexuals becoming members of the SDA Church. Of course he also very much favors WO. He uses some of the same arguments in his defense of both positions.

I am concerned about the homosexual issue because I am myself a non-practicing homosexual. I think it's wrong for us as a church to teach gays that God is OK with the practice of homosexuality. That is exactly what we're doing if we accept practicing gays as church members. If the church accepts practicing gays into the church, it will only be a short time before we will also have gay clergy. God will hold our church accountable if we join the fallen churches in accepting homosexuality as "normal" and neglect to help them resist and overcome their sins. Our church should be at the forefront of helping gay people become aware of the power of the gospel to change their lives. Instead, I'm afraid we will be encouraging them to continue their sinful practices.

I admit there are some in the WO camp that favors allowing homosexutals in the church but they are in a very small minority and that is not going to happen in the forseeable future as most even in Southern Calfornia are very much in favor of straight male female sexual relationships and frown on homosexual relationship.

In the prop 8 the prop that recognizes marriage as between a man and a woman the SDA church members was second in religious members to the mormons in its membership supporting the prop 8 with money.

So do not try to tie that to WO

I could just as well tie violence and threat of violence to the people who oppose WO.

In 1980 some person sent a death threat to Gifford the SECC conference president for supporting WO. He resigned and moved out of california. The Next president Lynn Mallery supported WO as well and got death threats as well. He ignored them. He got a brick with a note on it threatening him thrown threw his car window as it was parked in his driveway.

People calling up and threatening him with them turning off caller id.

People asking Folkenberg GC president at the time why he did not disfellowship the churches and conferneces that supported WO etc.

I have not heard of one case of violence by those who support WO but lots of cases of violence or threat of violence by those against WO.

So I could make the case that those who are against WO are prone to violence or threatening violence. You see my point.

[Woody]

Quote:

So I could make the case that those who are against WO are prone to violence.

Excellent point. So very true.

[BobRyan]

In the prop 8 the prop that recognizes marriage as between a man and a woman the SDA church members was second in religious members to the mormons in its membership supporting the prop 8 with money.

And there were number of outspoken voices opposing it - within the SECC that were notable on this web site and other web sites as well. They complained about the denomination's view of this and especially about RL not opposing Prop 8.

So Fritz Guy is not the "one off" that some might have hoped.

in Christ,

Bob

[CyberGuy]

Maybe so but there were far more voices in SoCal conferences that supported it than were against it. The membership were overwhelmingly behind it and supported it with our dontions.

So do not put just a handful of liberals that were against prop 8 as a condemation of WO.

[CyberGuy]

Read what the person Washington post and huffington post had to say about this.

http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2012/10...-women-mistakes

[CyberGuy]

This story was also published by the Huffington Post. The wording of the vote is not the best PR for the Silver Spring, Maryland-based leaders, especially in light of their plans to hold a massive evangelism campaign in major cosmopolitan centers.

I have heard many students in our universities say they do not want to be part of a church that is biased aginst women to be ordained simply out of bias and have NO scriptural backing for their position.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Now tell me who is to lead!!!

Already answered! God!

There will always be opposing view points, it is the direction of progress that matters. If God be fore us, than why the constant 'worry' over the details? I trust in God, and that means His people will preserve, not always in unity of opinions and interpretations, but in the Goal of eternal life. Humans are afraid that they can't let God control outcomes without interference from themselves, sorry, but that is a lack of trust....in my opinion!!!