Separate, but United? The Conundrum of Race-based Conferences

[lazarus]

......There is an interesting history to the development of black and white conferences that I assume few people my age know. Originally, the different conferences were formed for a good reason. The Seventh-day Adventist church was established in the 1860s, a time when slavery and other racial issues still divided the nation. White Adventists were not willing to accept blacks in the church, and the few times blacks were allowed to fellowship with whites, they were denied positions of leadership.

In the 1940s, blacks still faced racism, and segregation continued in many places, including the Adventist church. George Knight, in his historical work, Organizing for Mission and Growth wrote: “Black Adventists in Washington, D.C., including those who worked at the General Conference, could not eat at the denominational cafeteria, send their children to nearby Washington Missionary College, or become a patient at the Washington Missionary Sanitarium.”

In 1944, following an incident when a black woman died after being denied treatment at the sanitarium, the General Conference Committee met to discuss the best way to deal with the racial issues. After discussing several possible options, they came up with a solution: different conferences for black members. These separate conferences would allow for blacks to have leadership roles and distance them from the racial tensions in the white conference....

http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2012/11/15/separate-united-conundrum-race-based-conferences

[OzarkWoman]

I have a great disdain for any conference or any church that is race or ethnic based. Our country used to be a melting pot and now it is nothing but a hodge podge of people who came here and got citizenship but wish to still be part of the country they left. We have very few, yes there are some, that come here because they wish to be truly American and just that, American, not a hyphennated American.

[CoAspen]

Very interesting.

Thanks

[phkrause]

Yes I agree with CoAspen, that was very interesting bit of history. I never had heard that before.

[nuff sed]

I never heard that story nor do I trust it being it came via Spectrum magazine............I do remember that in 1954 or '55 the Northeastern Conference was organized at the 'demand' of the black churches in the Greater New York Conference.I was there. My father was the Union auditor and was the one who had to separate the assets of the black churches from the rest of the GNYC so that the new conference could be formed. Nuff Sed

[Gerr]

The president of SE Calif Conf was a black 6 years ago when I was still living there. He may still be. The president of the Southern Union looks like a black person to me. So how long are we to keep these present separate conferences? To me this is a black eye on the church's witness to the world.

[BobRyan]

The regular conferences are integrated - all races world wide take part in that administration.

The traditionally black conferences in North America are not nearly as integrated.

The problem is not race. It is politics, staffing, and the logistics of merging.

Are we really going to still have "Two presidents" in a given conference area? If not - then a merge means one of them is not going to be "president" of a conference.

Etc ... etc.

As for "History" -- behind black conferences.

http://www.drpipim.org/church-racism-con...ces-part-1.html

The black conferences are listed under each Union.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Division_of_Seventh-day_Adventists

As for Ron Smith - if you look at his bio -

http://www.southernunion.com/site/1/docs/personnel/President_bio.pdf

Ron was apparently a pastor in the black conferences and went from that role to several other SDA admin roles outside of strictly black conference contexts - and was then elected to Southern Union President.

I was hoping he was a pastor outside of the Black conferences prior to that - because it seems like we do not have many black pastors outside of black conferences. And I don't know of many white pastors in black conference churches in North America. Maybe someone can inform me on that one.

in Christ,

Bob

[Tom Wetmore]

I never heard that story nor do I trust it being it came via Spectrum magazine...........

It is true.

George Knight is the quoted source and he is a reliable church historian. I have heard the story from other trusted sources too.

[lazarus]

I have a great disdain for any conference or any church that is race or ethnic based.

Heard many first hand stories of people of color who were refused entry to white churches, refused membership, even denied opportunity to be married in those white SDA churches. This happened in the 60's, 70's and even the 80's in the area around the GC, including the former GC church.

Before regional conferences were created the churches and conferences were race based. It's time to end it but there needs to be dialogue forgiveness and confession.

[lazarus]

The problem is not race. It is politics, staffing, and the logistics of merging.

The problem is most definitely race.

Despite the call to come out of her, racism is still one of the sins that the SDA church is still partaking of.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Despite the call to come out of her, racism is still one of the sins that the SDA church is still partaking of.

It was alive in the 90's as well in certain states of the south, my family observed it the church they were members of. It has improved, but we can do better.

[cardw]

Well segregation may be a reflection of Ellen White's attitudes on race and gender.

Quote:

"You are the children of God. He has adopted you, and He desires you to form characters here that will give you entrance into the heavenly family. Remembering this, you will be able to bear the trials which you meet here. In heaven there will be no color line; for all will be as white as Christ himself. Let us thank God that we can be members of the royal family."

(The Gospel Herald, March 1, 1901, para. 20)

I thought Jesus had brown skin?

Quote:

"Thus Satan used an unconsecrated woman [Jezebel] to sway the heart of the king, and through the king to cause all Israel to sin. It is a terrible thing to be an instrument in the hands of Satan. Satan chooses women, for he can use them more successfully than he can men." (Manusript Releases, vol. 10 p. 76, Ms. 29, 1911, p. 13. Released by the White Estate Washington, D. C. July 16, 1980)

Quote:

"The Colored People should not urge that they be placed on an equality with White People." Testimonies Vol. 9, page 214, Paragraph 3.

Quote:

We cannot expect that they ... [Colored People] will be as firm and clear in their ideas of morality." Testimonies Vol. 9, page 223 paragraph 3.

Quote:

"The work of proclaiming the truth for this time is not to be hindered by an effort to adjust the position of the Negro race." Testimonies Vol. 9, page 214, paragraph 4.

[debbym]

I spoke with someone who explained in depth how the self identified black church did not want to lose their identity. Racism goes both ways.

throwing oneself into the civil rights movement could well absorb all of the resources and energy of throngs of people for generations, and would certainly be a derailment if your agenda was to carry the gospel to the world.

and the energy involved in the civil rights movement for equality was consuming, and we still have unabated racism. i don't think it is something we can human change as we cannot change hearts by social activism. we do pass laws that punish behaviors that are legally unacceptable, and this doesn't stop racism.

The whiteness of Christ is not his race, it is the light, as Moses glowed with light so bright he had to wear a veil.

and if you are thinking in hetero terms, generally speaking a woman has much more power to seduce a man then another man. look at the context.

[cardw]

I spoke with someone who explained in depth how the self identified black church did not want to lose their identity. Racism goes both ways.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

The point of knowing what is the right thing to do is not the results, but because it is right.

That statement should be in bold capital letters and emblazoned everywhere!!!

[lazarus]

Well segregation may be a reflection of Ellen White's attitudes on race and gender.

Ellen White certainly reflected the attitude of her time. She would be considered to be a racist today in many respects. Not many SDA's have seen those quotes. Good digging. Most SDA's a shocked when they see those quotes.

[debbym]

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted By: debjm

I spoke with someone who explained in depth how the self identified black church did not want to lose their identity. Racism goes both ways.

Quote:

posted by cardw

This is irrelevant and is easily refuted by the statement, "Two wrongs don't make a right."

i was just giving information, separate churches are not necessarily mutually established between the two groups.

Quote:

Originally Posted By: debjm

throwing oneself into the civil rights movement could well absorb all of the resources and energy of throngs of people for generations, and would certainly be a derailment if your agenda was to carry the gospel to the world.

Quote:

posted by cardw

And instead of being a champion for something that would be a major historical stand and evidence of being ahead of their time, the choice was made to invest in a movement based on being mistaken about the coming of Jesus.

Instead the Quakers really understood the moral high ground, but they weren't considered "real" Christians.

i do not know why Quakers cannot be considered real Christians. we all pick our battles.

Quote:

Originally Posted By: debjm

and the energy involved in the civil rights movement for equality was consuming, and we still have unabated racism. i don't think it is something we can human change as we cannot change hearts by social activism. we do pass laws that punish behaviors that are legally unacceptable, and this doesn't stop racism.

Quote:

posted by cardw

Again, irrelevant. The point of knowing what is the right thing to do is not the results, but because it is right. And what has all this gospel spreading done? Has this stopped racism?

Individually racisism is ended in the heart of each one that loves everyone with God's love,

Quote:

Originally Posted By: debjm

and if you are thinking in hetero terms, generally speaking a woman has much more power to seduce a man then another man. look at the context.

Quote:

posted by cardw

This would suggest that instead of women being the weaker sex, men are. It takes Satan to control a woman, but it "only" takes a woman to control a man.

That's an insult to both men and women.

well i also believe a heterosexual man has more power to seduce a heterosexual woman, then another woman has. and same for women to men. this is not saying anything about satan. i see it as a common observation, i don't see why it is insulting.

[cardw]

and if you are thinking in hetero terms, generally speaking a woman has much more power to seduce a man then another man. look at the context.

Quote:

posted by cardw

This would suggest that instead of women being the weaker sex, men are. It takes Satan to control a woman, but it "only" takes a woman to control a man.

That's an insult to both men and women.

well i also believe a heterosexual man has more power to seduce a heterosexual woman, then another woman has. and same for women to men. this is not saying anything about satan. i see it as a common observation, i don't see why it is insulting.

[cardw]

I spoke with someone who explained in depth how the self identified black church did not want to lose their identity. Racism goes both ways.

Quote:

posted by cardw

This is irrelevant and is easily refuted by the statement, "Two wrongs don't make a right."

i was just giving information, separate churches are not necessarily mutually established between the two groups.

The context of your comment suggested that this was a reason the early SDA church shouldn't work against racism. If that is not the case and you're "just" providing this as "information," then the comment is, like I said, irrelevant.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Instead the Quakers really understood the moral high ground, but they weren't considered "real" Christians.

i do not know why Quakers cannot be considered real Christians. we all pick our battles.

Here is one example of why Quakers are not considered Christians. By most mainstream evangelical organizations Quakers are considered members of a cult.

Quakers follow a cult

Quakers were one of the early organizations to promote conscientious objection to participation in war. They were the main thought leaders against slavery in both England and the United States.

What is hypocritical is that conservative Christians will take credit for being anti-slave because they will refer to Quakers as Christians when it suits their purposes of disinformation. But they will ignore the fact that most Christians in the United States were saying that slavery was supported and imposed on the black man by the Bible, because of the curse of Ham. And the Bible never condemns slavery in either the Old or the New Testament. In fact it supports slavery.

My point was that if Ellen White was really a prophet she would have seen that a strong equality for all mankind stand would have brought praise to the Seventh Day Adventist church much like the Quakers are praised for their stand on equality. Instead, under her guidance, the SDA church is forced to defend its racist beginnings.

I'm not sure what your point is, but you don't seem to understand the conversation.

[debbym]

Quote:

My point was that if Ellen White was really a prophet she would have seen that a strong equality for all mankind stand would have brought praise to the Seventh Day Adventist church much like the Quakers are praised for their stand on equality. Instead, under her guidance, the SDA church is forced to defend its racist beginnings.

I'm not sure what your point is, but you don't seem to understand the conversation.

ok i will do one more round of attempting

to do justice to your comments.

i don't think being a prophet means you are omniscient. i do not see her stance on slavery as being a test of her serving as an inspired speaker, teacher, and writer. She was a human being, like anyone, deeply imperfect, and had her errors and problems. Prophets are not perfect people, it is not a criteria for the job. Look at Jonah.

and I don't think i have any compunction to defend any racist beginnings of the SDA church, and i have no reason to believe any SDA members feel forced to do this. i am really kind of wondering about your comments.

I have no idea if the Quakers really understood any "high ground" on the development of the slavery issue. They had a very clear sense of the creator-ship of God, and to diss someone because they had diff skin color was to them dishonoring God. It was a very religious thing.

people are people and everyone is a collection of their history, their experience, education and the contemporary thinking and views at the time, and more. i understand this, i am not going to judge anyone for how they thought and spoke in the middle 1880's. the phenomena of racism is not simple and not easily changed in any society. In Japan there is deep prejudice against the darker skinned hairy Japanese that live in the north on the land. There has been tremendous efforts to change the attitudes of the Japanese who feel superior. This is not presented to the world or acknowledged, and it runs deep. it profoundly effects those who are the outcasts.

http://www.apa.org/pi/oema/programs/racism/un-conference-plenary.aspx

In human history this dogging is very painful and is pervasive with the human race. The scheme of racism is complex and multidimensional. i also see it in animal nature. Have you seen chickens and how they can be with the pecking order? Bullying and hatred because people are different has caused death. However dreadful it is it still goes on. There are people who do a hate thing with any number of various groups of people. SDA's are also targeted by haters. The social phenomena occurs on a continuum of mild to severe as we all know.

there are separated SDA congregations but as i mentioned before, i know of the instance that African American SDA's prefer this. I do not believe this separation has so much to do with color but many factors to their identity, the ties in family, history and culture. But i believe there is a tremendous unity In Christ regardless of differences not only among groups in the USA, but regardless of the differences in culture, language, and nationalism around the world.

yes i believe we can be separated and still united, and we can be integrated and united.

ok i am done...

deb

[cardw]

Quote:

My point was that if Ellen White was really a prophet she would have seen that a strong equality for all mankind stand would have brought praise to the Seventh Day Adventist church much like the Quakers are praised for their stand on equality. Instead, under her guidance, the SDA church is forced to defend its racist beginnings.

I'm not sure what your point is, but you don't seem to understand the conversation.

ok i will do one more round of attempting

to do justice to your comments.

i don't think being a prophet means you are omniscient. i do not see her stance on slavery as being a test of her serving as an inspired speaker, teacher, and writer. She was a human being, like anyone, deeply imperfect, and had her errors and problems. Prophets are not perfect people, it is not a criteria for the job. Look at Jonah.

Well then my question is: How come the Quakers got it right without a prophet and literal interpretation of the bible and Seventh Day Adventists got it so wrong?

Of what use is a prophet if that prophet can't give accurate information?

Of what use is a prophet if that prophet steers you the wrong way?

[debbym]

i dont think we are in kansas anymore... this is not about

separate but united? the conundrum of race based conferences.

i am happy to continue conversing with you though

[cardw]

i dont think we are in kansas anymore... this is not about

separate but united? the conundrum of race based conferences.

i am happy to continue conversing with you though

I notice that you don't really address my statements. The role of Ellen White is significant to why we have separate conferences.

From my perspective religion is no more enlightened than believing in Santa Claus or from your reference, the Wizard of Oz.

I would point out that the Wizard kept saying to not pay attention to the man behind the curtain. And in a sense that is what you have been doing.

So, you're right, were not in Kansas any more.

[debbym]

Quote:

I notice that you don't really address my statements. The role of Ellen White is significant to why we have separate conferences.

i think her role is not so significant in comparison to the etiology of racism, the nature of it and the levels on which it needs to be addressed. i mentioned the power of it on both sides, which i brought up and you twice made clear you felt that was irrelevant information.

i put up content of these elements, and you feel i am just not addressing your statements. i am looking at the picture through my lens and you are looking through yours.

you seem to have such a strong agenda to put down e white that you did not recognize that the information i was offering had any bearing on the thread at all.

it can be a very floppy experience trying to debate someone out of their faith. equally so to debate someone into it.

lol

so why this game?

deb