Separate, but United? The Conundrum of Race-based Conferences

[JoeMo]

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The point of knowing what is the right thing to do is not the results, but because it is right.

That statement should be in bold capital letters and emblazoned everywhere!!!

AMEN times 2!!

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My point was that if Ellen White was really a prophet she would have seen that a strong equality for all mankind stand would have brought praise to the Seventh Day Adventist church much like the Quakers are praised for their stand on equality.

This statement, some of the quotes you posted, and some other quotes I have seen By EGW really make me question the degree of her enlightenment. I have had this issue for many years when I hear some people say "Listen to the word of God": and then quote EGW (frequently out of context).

Racism is wrong; and separate conferences do nothing but promote continued segregation. I really don't care if the racism is white-on-black or black-on white - it needs to stop.

[cardw]

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I notice that you don't really address my statements. The role of Ellen White is significant to why we have separate conferences.

i think her role is not so significant in comparison to the etiology of racism, the nature of it and the levels on which it needs to be addressed. i mentioned the power of it on both sides, which i brought up and you twice made clear you felt that was irrelevant information.

[debbym]

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It's irrelevant to why we SHOULD have separate conferences, not WHY.

so you are saying that the broader picture of racism is irrelevant to the question "should we?" and relevant to the question why.

I have no opinion on whether the Church should do this or that. I am not in a position of responsibility, and have not researched it, discussing it with all those involved in their churches and conferences. i think she (e white) was dealing with racism, and our church was dealing with racism,. The SDA church has social issues in the countries wherever they are always. if African American blacks want to keep their churches and conferences, why not.

we have Vietnamese churches, and i imagine there are other SDA churches with predominant culture other then mainstream American white culture.

The church is going to reflect the social issues of each country it is in, and reflect the times, as we do today.

Racism is not a simple issue, and i cannot see it being dealt with by merely eliminating African American conferences and churches. That the SDA church has reflected the issue of racism in our nation, should not be surprising.

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I'm not comparing her role to other influences on racism. I'm saying she had an influence and therefore it is pertinent to the topic.

I have no doubt that if she wrote and taught as strongly as the Quakers did on the idea that all men are to be treated equal, we would have a far different church.

the Quakers have a very mixed history on racism and slavery, at one time 70% of Quakers had slaves, when they did have individuals who spoke against it it caused many splinter groups, and some groups who marshaled against it.

this was a powerfully divisive issue in the Quaker society. it was not a whole group standing in one position.

not everyone listened to E white in her day, i don't think she was that powerful influence you imagine.

i suspect the SDA church could have been shattered by this issue as the Quaker society was.

i imagine the issue was handled in ways to bring the least disruption to the body of the SDA church over all. As society itself was also in upheaval over it. social change is an amazing phenomenon to examine. and the church survived this to continue to grow and be a viable body to continue to be able to address the issue.

much like if i have a personal issue say with alcohol, God is patient with me, and even though i have not arrived at all the ideals, i am still going to move forward, failings, faults, struggles, and efforts and all.

Christ could have addressed some major issues of social change, but he had priorities. The issue the Jewish Christians had with Gentile Christians went on and on. And Apostle Peter was called a Judaiser and really laid into about it. This did not mean he was not a servant of God, and greatly blessed, and did great things to bless the Body of Christ in his time.. but he did have failing when it came to bigotry.

E white was not alone as a Christian Struggling with social issues of her time.

deb

[cardw]

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It's irrelevant to why we SHOULD have separate conferences, not WHY.

so you are saying that the broader picture of racism is irrelevant to the question "should we?" and relevant to the question why.

[debbym]

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If part of the goal of Christianity is to unify all mankind then even Christianity has a value system of unity. If you are using this idea that because the black church wants to be separate then we should be separate then you are at odds with Christian value systems.

i do not feel i am any less one in Christ with my fellow Christians who have churches of their own culture , or nationality. I can be in Christian unity with great diversity. If i have problems with some sin in my life that is separating me from Christ, then my unity with God's people will be in measure accordingly.

A difference in culture is not sin.

these kinds of diversity are not divergence from Christ.

the goal of Christianity is to do God's will, and His will encompasses much. As in, developing His Character within, to reveal His Goodness, now and in eternity.

This is something we are growing into. Just because someone is not perfect in Christ doesn't mean they are not Christian and growing and doing well in their walk with God.

If members of a church are struggling with racism or note struggling with it, i cannot judge or condemn them. There walk is sacred, and God is in charge of dealing with the issues of his people, not me.

i would accept their choice and place it in God's hands. and i cannot say that racism is at the base of having different conferences. i am not directly involved to make that judgement.

i do not lose what unity i have with Christ if i do not take up social activism and start a war in the SDA church to end racism in the church.

[cardw]

A difference in culture is not sin.

[CoAspen]

A question......

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...the goal of Christianity is to do God's will.....

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..i do not lose what unity i have with Christ if i do not take up social activism..... to end racism in the church.

Is it God's will that social injustice and racism are to be allowed to continue? If not, then how do we maintain unity with Christ by not being active against it?

Okay...2 questions!

[Windsor]

I thought Jesus had brown skin?

If you have an authentic picture of Jesus, please share it with us. Your modern day resident of Israel and Palestine comes in a variety of shades and who is to say what they looked like 2000 years ago. Besides, white has always been a symbol of purity and perhaps it's a color that nobody today has.

[lazarus]

If members of a church are struggling with racism or note struggling with it, i cannot judge or condemn them. There walk is sacred, and God is in charge of dealing with the issues of his people, not me.

God deals with issues in the church through us. Leaders and members are charged with disciplining.... discipling other church members. If we see racism in a fellow believer on in the church it is our duty to call others to the standard of Christ. Galatians 6:1, Matthew 18:15.

Going further, If I am the object of racism in the church is is my duty to rebuke the racist or I will share in the guilt of the racist. Lev 19:17. Of course this applies to many other sins too.

[debbym]

since racism occurs on a continuum we cannot always recognize it, so i suppose if it was blatant i would not have a problem speaking up, but it is an issue that does not appear in my church This doesn't tell me if it is or is not there.

so in my church if someone is struggling with it, or not struggling with it, i am not able to know, it remains in their private domain. if someone was suffering from it, then they would have to bring it to someones attention. this is a tremendous barrier. there are so many kinds of abuse going on in the families in the church, and bring it to someones attention is not an easy thing to do. And proving it is another challenging task.

there are some saying we are in the post racism era, but i do not buy it.

i am certain the vast majority of racism is not manifested. we can pass laws against it, but that only serves to punish that which is so blatant it cannot escape notice. It is very difficult to get convictions of it. policy cannot stop it.

if someone publically makes a racist remark it seems all they have to do is say sorry, and it is wiped away.

It is something only the Holy Spirit can clean up. And yes God can work through us to deal with it, and God can also deal with it directly. God does discipline his people.

[debbym]

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Is it God's will that social injustice and racism are to be allowed to continue? If not, then how do we maintain unity with Christ by not being active against it?

Thew first part can be asked, is any of the suffering that has resulted from sin something God wills. There is endless social injustice and suffering in the world, of which racism is a part. This is a classic question, does God will this suffering to continue.

I believe no he does not, but that people do.

the second question could be stated, How do i remain in unity with Christ in the face of a world that is antagonistic to God's will.

It starts with losing my personal consent to sin. It starts with me being the change i want to see int he world, through God working in me to do his will. and no God has not asked me to take on the social ills of the world, but for now to listen and walk with God and do the things i know and see are his will for me.

i have been involved in social justice, and it is very tough and the changes are extremely slow to come by. i believe the kingdom of Christ is set up in hearts individual by individual. This is where the greatest battles are fought and the greatest miracles are won, when my heart finds surrender to God.

so my unity with Christ is in my heart and i cannot see how others see it, or when they see it or if they see it, i don't concern myself with that. i concern myself with coming to God and seeking Him and His will through my day. If God asked me to do more i hope i would be ready and willing to do it.

[lazarus]

Obviously, if the issue is not known it cannot be addressed. That is applicable to any sin. We are talking about things that can be addressed. Racism does not just manifest itself in personal relationships but in organizational structures. The fact that we still have separate conferences is evidence of the presence of racism in the SDA church. SDA's are not unique in terms of the presence of racism but perhaps somewhat unique in the fact that we have been able to maintain a unified church organization in the face of it.

Much of secular society has been able to begin deal with institutional racism through policies and restructuring. We are still stuck. The roots of this issue run deep.

[debbym]

the Quakers had about 70% slave owners, before they started addressing the issue, and when they did, it was individuals who took strong positions, and it caused quite a shattering of their society of friends into various groups to this day.

i would say the church has survived even though struggling with this issue, along with a lot of other issues. And is able to continue to address it.

i have no way of measuring or how to measure how much racism has to do with the current structure of the SDA Church in north America. I know we have churches of different culture and nationalities in the USA, and i believe it is their preference.

I believe there may well be enough cultural differences that African Americans may be able to more effectively spiritually labor for their communities and families remaining as they are.

and European Americans may be able to work more effectively as they are.

I know the Hispanic communities are very strong to maintain their cultural identity and have their churches, and it is their preference.

how could anyone begin to assert the necessity of church organizational change, and accuse of present racism as the basis for these changes. i don't see that being effectual.

i believe we can have unity and diversity. how could anyone prove that their exist racism in the organizational leaders in the African American SDA church and in the European American SDA church.

[JoeMo]

My profession is Risk Management. One of the classifications of risk in business is reputational risk. In business, if a company had "seperate but equal" facilities for whites and blacks, no matter how identical the facilites and organizations are, that business would be tagged as "racist". If it was a publicly held company with stock, the value of their stock would go down. It wouldn't matter if 99% of the employees (both black and white) were OK with the situation, society at large would label the company as "racist; and the value of their stock (hence the value of the Company) would decrease; maybe even to the point of bamkruptcy or liquidation.

Isn't it the same for the church? If we are perceived as racist by even a small percentage of the population, we are labelled as racist.

Some people have said that we have seperate conferences to preserve and respect the cultural diversity between races. OK - why not have an Hispanic Conference, and an Asian Conference, and a Native American Conference as well?

[CoAspen]

...and don't forget an Irish-American or German-American or..........

[Woody]

I think I'll form the first Swiss n Swedish Conference. After all - we do have our self interests to serve.

[JoeMo]

It is sheer racism to leave out a Sons of Italy Conference

[Woody]

It is sheer racism to leave out a Sons of Italy Conference

[Woody]

It is sheer racism to leave out a Sons of Italy Conference

Actually - I've been to the Italy Conference. Listened to an entire sermon in Italian. Didn't understand one word.

[JoeMo]

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Actually - I've been to the Italy Conference. Listened to an entire sermon in Italian. Didn't understand one word.

But it sure sounded rich and beautiful didn't it?

[cricket]

Forced integration seems to be working in the secular world. It's taken years, but it sure seems to be working. So, why not force integration in the non-secular world? Get rid of all the conferences. Restructure EVERYTHING.

[Woody]

Cricket for President.

Cricket for President.

[JoeMo]

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Cricket for President.

Cricket for President.

Of the U.S or the SDA General Conference? OOOO - is a female GC President worse than a female minister?

In order to save a rebuking post, I'll confess:

[Woody]

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Cricket for President.

Cricket for President.

Of the U.S or the SDA General Conference? OOOO - is a female GC President worse than a female minister?

In order to save a rebuking post, I'll confess:

We might need to get a new Vice President since having both a woman president and Vice President - might be too much.

[debbym]

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from JoeMo,

Some people have said that we have separate conferences to preserve and respect the cultural diversity between races. OK - why not have an Hispanic Conference, and an Asian Conference, and a Native American Conference as well?

I have no doubt at all, that if any other minority in the USA, had the members and resources they would be happy to have their own conferences, to martial their resources to serve their population group.

schools and conferences, and churches, yes they would love it.

melting pot schmelting pot, individuals in this country from other countries really maintain their identity. we have emigrants and family's here that are Hispanic, Italian , and Scottish , and Asian.

they have either their own stores to shop their imports, or they have their annual festivals,, and costumes, and dances and games, and wow i think it is great. you have no doubt they are sternly preserving their cultural identity. I get to learn and shop and experience cool things i would not otherwise experience. yes they maintain their identity. It is vital to their families to do so.

deb