When was Jesus born?

[Gibs]

Yes Woody, it would be great if it was not incorporated with the occultic stuff. It is but a great day of the world for merchandising and it is a pain to go into the stores to get anything.

Yes and it is a fact that it is a lie that that is the time of His birth as so much out there points to. No it happened over two months before like it or not.

The roots of that great celebration is not the birth of Jesus Christ. Paganism and True Christianity cannot and will not mix.

Do the search on it and find out, I have and find your understanding rewarded. It is some time consumming and I did it once and don't care to do it again.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Quote:

Yes and it is a fact that it is a lie that that is the time of His birth as so much out there points to.

You continue to put forth the accusation that people believe Dec 25th was His birth. But yet you refuse to back up your accusation. It's easy to make such accusations. But much harder to put forth the truth. I sympathize with your situation Gibs.

You obviously want to change the day we celebrate Christmas to a different date. But Gibs - no matter what date we came up with --- somewhere somehow --- people would find a pagan connection . And if there was no connection - the pagans would make one and claim the day.

As an example Gibs. Let me know when YOUR birthday is. And I guarantee you - I can find a pagan connection. The question is: Are we going to let the pagans do this and win?

[JoeMo]

Gibs, You are a great one to quote EGW. As such, for one of the first times ever, I quote:

“Shall We Have a Christmas Tree?”—God would be well pleased if on Christmas each church would have a Christmas tree on which shall be hung offerings, great and small, for these houses of worship. [Note: reference is made in this article to current building projects. As the principles set forth in this connection are applicable today, these specific references are left in the article.] Letters of inquiry have come to us asking, Shall we have a Christmas tree? Will it not be like the world? We answer, You can make it like the world if you have a disposition to do so, or you can make it as unlike the world as possible. There is no particular sin in selecting a fragrant evergreen and placing it in our churches, but the sin lies in the motive which prompts to action and the use which is made of the gifts placed upon the tree. "{AH 482.1}

Since you are a major fan of EGW, are you gonna toss this out, or suggest a new day on which to celebrate the birth of Christ, if our motive is to celebrate Christ coming into the world?

[Woody]

Quote:

Yes and it is a fact that it is a lie that that is the time of His birth as so much out there points to.

You continue to put forth the accusation that people believe Dec 25th was His birth. But yet you refuse to back up your accusation. It's easy to make such accusations. But much harder to put forth the truth. I sympathize with your situation Gibs.

You obviously want to change the day we celebrate Christmas to a different date. But Gibs - no matter what date we came up with --- somewhere somehow --- people would find a pagan connection . And if there was no connection - the pagans would make one and claim the day.

As an example Gibs. Let me know when YOUR birthday is. And I guarantee you - I can find a pagan connection. The question is: Are we going to let the pagans do this and win?

I wanted to add one more thought to this.

Gibs - are you going to promote Paganism and let Paganism win by submitting to any day that they might want to claim. This is a serious issue. Do you realize what you are doing?

[Tom Wetmore]

...let Paganism win by submitting to any day that they might want to claim...

This reminds me of a conversation I had not so long ago with a very earnest fellow that quite seriously felt that we should stop using the names of the days of the week and follow the Biblical way of simply referring to them as "the first day", 'the 2nd day", etc. The reason? The names are of pagan origin.

[Gibs]

I do not pay any attention to any pagan teachings or observings. Lots of people realize Dec 25 isn't the date of Christ's birth and still put up manger scenes etc. Yes it is a worldly holiday merchandising on the birth of our Lord and many when young are led to believe it is His Birth day.

My Aunts would have had me believe that it was as a child but my Dad would have no part of it and taught me the truth.

Then santa claus is brought into it. My wife even wanted to introduce santa claus to my children and I told her, she must not deceive them and she didn't. But because of what my kids learned from other kids and maybe from the church school here they had to be retaught that Dec 25 was not Christ's birthday. At first it was a blow to them to realize that.

Truly I am always glad when the Xmas day and new years celebrations and merchandising is over. Yes it should be labled xmas day and never Christmas day. Christ and mass do not mix. Christ I don't see is in it.

Santa is Satan if you just move the t after the first a and then reverse the na to an.

If Christ is to be in it, then santa must be removed.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Quote:

I do not pay any attention to any pagan teachings or observings.

I am sorry that to your belief - honoring Christ's birth is a pagan observance. It speaks volumes about your view of things. I am just now understanding better ... your theories on things.

But for the record - I very much disagree with them.

[Woody]

Quote:

Lots of people realize Dec 25 isn't the date of Christ's birth and still put up manger scenes etc

Since we don't know the date - what is wrong with Dec. 25th?

OR ...

R U saying that we can't honor His birth unless we know the date.

Your theories really confuse me.

And again - putting up the "symbols" of His birth is what Christmas is all about. Remember - Symbolism.

Also - I must ask again for proof of your accusation that Christians are lying about the date.

[Tom Wetmore]

...

Santa is Satan if you just move the t after the first a and then reverse the na to an.

If you change but one letter of your name it spells "Gobs"... Or if you add three letters it is "Giblets" . I am not trying to insult you, but I assume you can see my point.

You indicated that you passed on to your children what your father taught you on this subject. I assume your children are adults with children of their own, and maybe grandchildren. Do they still avoid Christmas and teach their children and grandchildren the same thing?

[Gibs]

No Tom I don't as I didn't use different letters or add letters. However I will let you have santa claus. It is a symbol of what?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

The spirit that is in the xmas holiday is of the world, I am not a part of it. I love my Lord and Saviour with all my heart and soul and give thanks every day for such a wonderful gift even to save a wretch like me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Quote:

It is a symbol of what?

I've given you many examples of symbolism Gibs. You obviously have no concept of symbolism.

[LynnDel]

Hey guys, you are not going to agree, and you are not even arguing on the same point! How long are you going to go round and round on this? *sigh*

We all know Jesus wasn't born on Dec. 25. We all know that the origins of Dec. 25 are pagan. Many of the Christmas songs explicitly say that Christmas is Christ's birthday, though what is meant is that it is the day His birthday is celebrated. It is misleading, because many don't understand the songs are wrong. I even heard a song recently that advised people not to shop at stores where the employees didn't greet you with "Merry Christmas" --because they were dishonoring Christ. Bah humbug! I suppose that insincerity in the form of "buy here" is recommended.

When I was teaching, I had my students with summer birthdays pick a day on the school year calendar on which we would celebrate their birthday. We all knew it wasn't their birthday, but we sang Happy Birthday to them on that day, and they didn't feel left out. Perhaps that is the type of symbolism to which you refer, Woody?

However, there is another type of symbolism having to do with the Christmas tree. I have only once seen a church put up a tree in the way EGW suggests. Instead of just a green tree on which to put gifts for the needy, the tree often is decorated with baubles and lights. I tend to believe, by the way, that her statement on the tree was a private opinion and not a message from God. Why? Because of this verse from Jeremiah 10, the context having to do with idolatry:

2... for the customs of the peoples are vanity. 3 A tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman. They decorate it with silver and gold; 4 they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move.

In considering the issue, I suppose it may start with letting everyone be persuaded in their own minds. I have changed in my own private opinions in the last few years, but I do not make accusations against others because they are already persuaded in their own minds and have many reasons they want to continue in their practices. I am not holier than they; they are not more sinful than I. We are all growing in our walk and are at different points along the path. One day soon it will all converge, and we will then know how many times God has had to wink at our ignorance. I think we will all be shocked, and ever so grateful.

[Gibs]

For those of you that actually do want to learn a little of Jesus Birth among us and the connections implied in the feast of tabernacles, please peruse these and they are not long, There is many more you can get on this that pins the day down very close but I didn't take the time this morning to do it, this may get up your interest to do it yourself.

http://raptureintheairnow.com/the-jewish...-of-tabernacles

http://jewishroots.net/library/messianic/was-the-birth-of-christ-during-t%20Tabernacles.htm

http://www.ldolphin.org/studynotes/xmas.htm

May you be Blessed,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[phkrause]

Excellent, excellent post LynnDel very much. Some seem to think we are all at the same place in our walk with our Lord and Savior!

[Woody]

Excellent post LynnDel.

[Naomi]

good post LynnDel

I especially like

Quote:

One day soon it will all converge, and we will then know how many times God has had to wink at our ignorance. I think we will all be shocked, and ever so grateful.

[LynnDel]

I read your posts, dgrimm, and that's what inspired me to write mine. Thanks!

LD

[LynnDel]

Gibs, I read the first of your links and will look at the others. I have heard before the theory that Jesus was born on the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles. While that sounds like such a neat and clean way for God to do it, it doesn't make sense to me, then, that Joseph and Mary would have been looking for an inn for lodging. If it was Tabernacles, it seems they would have been planning on camping out anyway. I know that they were supposed to be in Jerusalem to celebrate this feast, however, so that could account for the lack of preparation if, indeed, that date is correct. On the other hand, it seems there would have been some scriptural mention of the lack of tolerance and the more than inconvenience to the entire Jewish nation to have Caesar Augustus interrupt their annual feast with a command to go to their birthplaces and not Jerusalem for census and taxing purposes. Is there any historical mention of this?

LD

(Hoping no one ever repeats that command; it would be a long trip for me)

[LynnDel]

Aha. I see the second link addresses that issue. Very good links. Thanks for sharing.

LD

[Gibs]

There has been much revealing research that can easily be found that makes it clear to me at least that our Saviour came to us very possibly the first day of the feast of tabernacles. The feast I see it as a prophecy of that event.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Windsor]

How could the feast be a prophecy of that event when none of the gospel writers make even a passing reference to the feast? Seems that would have been quite an important reference to make.

[Kevin H]

HEY ALL

the pagans worshiped the sun ---they noticed that

the sun during the winter months was coming closer

to the earth--they noticed that about DEC 21 the sun

did not get any lower to the earth and by DEC 25 the sun

was moving up in the sky away from the earth

it was the CATHOLIC CHURCH that set the DATE DEC 25

at the day to worship JESUS as SON OF GOD to go along

with the pagan sun worship

dgrimm60

The traditional understanding for December 25 says that it was started in the 4th century under Constantine to make Christianity easier for pagans. This theory was developed by scholars in the 1700s using the best material they had and built it on the evidence they had to work with.

However over the past 200 years we have discovered more evidence which is starting to become better known. I first learned about it from either the 2001, 2002 or 2003 November-December issue of Bible Review, and there was a similar article about 2 years ago in Biblical Archaeology review and you can hear references made to it in some newer articles and books and tv shows, and of course the older ones have what was understood in the 1700s.

There was an intertestamental tradition built in Judaism that had prophets conseved on the same date that they were to die. And there was also a tradition formed that said to expect good things to happen at passover, that it was passover when Isaac was conseved and it was Passover when Abraham took Isaac to sacrifice him but substituded with the ram caugh in the bush. Thus Passover was seen in Judaism as the conseption of Isaac and 9 months after Passover the birth of Isaac, and thus that Isaac was born sometime during what in our callenders, is the month of December, including sometimes falling on our December 25. When Jesus was a little boy, this season was celebrated as the birth of Isaac. Long before the Catholics came around.

In the second century the Christians sepperated from the Jews. Christians said that Jesus was better than Isaac, that Isaac was only a shadow of Jesus. That like Isaac, Jesus was conseved at Passover, and like the other prophets Jesus was conseved on what was the same day as would be his death. That like Isaac, Jesus was conseved on passover, born 9 months later in the Roman month of December (occasionally landing on the Roman December 25, but moving with the Jewish callender) and was, like Isaac, sacrificed on Passover. But unlike Isaac who needed a substitute, Jesus was the true sacrifice. At this time Christians stopped keeping passover but on the day of passover started celebrating the feast of the annunciation.

One year, durring the second centuary, when Passover and the Feast of the Annunciation fell on March 25 in the western Synogogues and churches (and on April 6 in Eastern Synogogues and Churches) Christians decided to stop using the Jewish Callender and adopt the Roman callender. Thereafter instead of cellebrating the feast of the annunciation on what ever date the Jews cellebrated passover. They would always celebrate it on March 25 or April 6, and believe that Jesus was born 9 months later.

In the third century AD, the church, which was hiding in the catacomes and wanted nothing to do with paganism, was still cellebrating the feast of the announciation on March 25 or April 6, and started putting a bit more ephessis on Jesus being born 9 months after this feast, or focusing on Jesus being born December 25 or April 6, and this date was already intrenched in Christianity over a hundred years before Constantine and the Catholics. It came from intertestamental Judaism which saw this season as when Isaac was born.

[Kevin H]

LynnDel: I like your post, except for the line saying that December 25 comes from paganism. That was what the best of our understanding from the evidence avalible to scholars in the 1700s came up with. But I hope you update it to the discoveries since then. Current evidence suggests that we got December 25 from intertestamental Judaism, who saw prophets being conseved and dieing on the same day, and Isaac being conseved on Passover, being born 9 months later, during the Roman month of December, and being taken by Abraham to Mt. Moriah on Passover, and that Christians saw this Jewish tradition as a type of Christ and that Jesus the antitype like Isaac was conseved on passover, born 9 months later, and sacrificed on Passover. Initally the feast of the detication fell on what ever the date of the Roman callender Passover fell on and the birth of Jesus was seen as 9 months later. Then when the church changed callenders they started to celebrate his conseption on March 25, and saw his birth as 9 months later, or December 25, and in the third century they started putting more focus on his birthday than having the major focus on his conseption so that December 25 was already entrenched in Christian tradition one and two centuries before Constantine.

[Kevin H]

For the feast of Tabernacles people: Maybe you are right. I am interested in the evidence but not convinced by it. Please don't misunderstand the above 2 posts. I don't believe that Jesus was born on December 25 any more than I believe that Isaac was born on December 25. I am only sharing new evidence discovered since the 1700s that show how we started to celebrate December 25 as the birth of Jesus. That it traces back to intertestamental Judaism, and was cellebrated as the conseption and birth of Isaac since before Christ and by Christians as a type of Christ in the second and third centurys and was already intrenched by Constantine.