A Man Can Believe Because He Had Been Forgiven

[ClubV12]

No problem Gerhard, it's a simple matter of some seeing the "rapture" and the soul burning in eternal hell and many other misinterpretations of scripture. Methodists believe this or that, based on scripture. The Baptists believe see it in a completely different way. Samie see's no investigative judgment, you believe his interpretation, I don't. Whats next for you Gerhard, have you considered the Jehovah Witness view point on their interpretation of scripture, you might fall for some their doctrine as well. Catholics are pretty sure they have it all figured out. Mormons, ditto!

You'll have to make a choice at some point Gerhard, and Samie. Some don't want to make a choice, they prefer their own private interpretation.

In the end, ALL other denominations are equal, they are ALL "Babylon", confusion, zero harmony on their doctrinal points, the blind leading the blind. This is no different, we see it everyday in the people we meet.

The mission of the Gods chosen people, the last remnant Church on earth, the last message to mankind is to COME OUT of Babylon! Come out of ALL other Churches and into the light of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, Gods only true Church for these last days.

Choose carefully, but in the end, there are only two choices. The Church that keeps His commandments AND has the spirit of prophecy or Babylon. Your in or your out. Your call, freewill and all that.

Samie, on the other hand, IS a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church and is preaching false doctrine that Church does not believe in or support. Samie HAS the scriptures and proof texts the Church uses. It's fine to preach a different doctrine, if your a MORMON or a BAPTIST, but he's not. Thats a serious problem, for any denomination when members start preaching a different doctrine. You know what that leads to, if you are a Catholic, or a Lutheran or a whoever? It leads to being separated from the Church, thats why it's a serious matter.

[ClubV12]

Gerhard, since you are an avid student of what Seventh-day Adventist believe and consistently OPPOSE their beliefs I have no doubt you to are familiar with and even well studied on the proof texts Seventh-day Adventists interpret to arrive at their doctrine of an investigative judgment.

I will not enter into a discussion with you over these points because it would not help to enlighten you in the least and would serve no purpose. Like Samie, what you need to do is reconsider your position on how the Holy Spirit leads one into truth. God bless if your search for truth is sincere, humble and of a teachable spirit, and if not, your darkness and delusion will only increase with time.

An outsider you are, impartial, your not!

[joeb]

Rom 12:3 compliments what my post pointed out.

It was God Who attached man to the body of His Son on the cross (Eph 2:11-19). Through the death of our Savior, man was forgiven (Col 2:13,14) and through His resurrection we were given new life, that is, born again (1 Pet 1:3) and made spiritually alive (Eph 2:4,5). Being attached to Christ Who is his Strength (Phil 4:13), man is empowered to overcome evil (Rom 12:21). And for his deeds to be pleasing to God, man need to have faith (Heb 11:6). So God gave man faith (Rom 12:3). This is why faith is both gift (1 Cor 12:4, 9) and fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22).

Again, faith comes after being attached to Christ.

So in your mind unbelievers and those who have rejected Christ are attached to Christ? Romans 12:3 makes it plain that even those people are given "the measure of faith".

[ClubV12]

Gerhard says, regarding the investigative judgment and third angels message,

"It's a figment of the imagination of some enthusiasts, clearly."

Well there we have it, your mind is made up. You've studied the issues, posted your opposititon to these issues on other web sites and actively fight against the Church. On this and on many other doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Nothing more I can do for you friend, you've seen the truth, examined it closely, rejected it and now fight against it. Whatever happens next in your life to help you see your error, whatever it takes, is now in Gods hands.

[joeb]

If I may say something, I'll say you are putting words in Samie's mouth -- your, words of your, thoughts.

You can chime in whenever you like. However, I asked him a question about how he sees things. Asking a question is not putting words in his mouth.

Now, had I made a statement that the thought contained in my qeustion was what he actually thinks, and then gone on to denounce it, that would be putting words in his mouth and misrepresenting him. I didn't do that.

[Ted Oplinger]

After JoeB, DebbyM, and I pretty much ended our posting on this thread, Samie resurrected it to post his premise.

I've followed along, just to see how things would unfold. To wit, Samie, your premise (a man is forgiven, therefore is free to be forgiven) you do back up with Scripture, albeit a clumsily at first.

Where we part ways is on your stated point there is no record of sins in heaven.

Here, As I understand your words, you part ways with what the Bible very clearly illustrates in the Tabernacle service: The blood of the sacrifice is both the record of atonement and the record of sin before God.

This is true, whether for the individual burnt and sin offerings (Leviticus 1 and 4), or for the morning/evening lamb burnt offering (Exodus 29:38-43 - these offerings were burnt offerings [vs 42], meaning they provided atonement on a corporate - or collective - level for the sons of Israel [vs 43]).

Sin, though atoned for through the sacrifice, nonetheless were not blotted out at that time - the blood of the sacrifice bore mute testimony of the confessed sin borne into the Tabernacle, and of the death of the sinner through the symbol of the shed blood, as the Lord has stipulated it is in the blood where life is (Leviticus 17:11).

Sins were not "blotted out" until the Day of Atonement, when the Tabernacle was indeed cleansed, and the people of Israel vindicated, through the blood of the sacrifice again presented before the Almighty.

As the Investigative Judgment cropped up in the course of discussion later, I will have the Biblical treatment of that as it pertains to the Day of Atonement.

In the Day of Atonement, God was never looking to re-apply the sins back upon the sinners. Where this concept of Divine double jeopardy comes into the teachings of the Bible about the day of Atonement and the Investigative Judgment, it is certainly not from the Bible. A God of agape love cannot commit double jeopardy - and certainly not with the perfect sacrifice of Jesus.

The object of the Day of Atonement was not to keep people out, but to vindicate as many as possible. The people humbled themselves, not in fear of whether their sins had found forgiveness and atonement, but in the humility that as unworthy as they were, their sinfulness had indeed found atonement and forgiveness in the shed blood before God. They all had to exercise faith that the shed blood of their sacrifices through the year had indeed brought the record of their confession and sin before the Lord, as well as holding to the atonement that God had already been pronounced through the High Priest.

They exercised faith that each day, the lamb sacrifice continued to bear witness to their confession, their prayers - and the atonement the Lord had made through the blood presented in the Holy Place.

I cannot find any evidence the Day of Atonement was a day of re-applying the previous sins already confessed and received atonement for. The blotting out of the record of sins ("making atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness/impurity of the house of Israel - Leviticus 16:16) is to vindicate for all time the both the Tabernacle and Israel for all time.

I look in Leviticus 16, and note how often the Lord says the atonement is to be made for the sanctuary, the tent of meeting, for the Holy Place - all of which would be unnecessary unless there a record of sin - and death for sin - accruing through the year.

As seen in Zechariah 3:1-7, every sinner, and every representative for Israel, is accused by Satan as being unjustly forgiven by God. However, the blood borne into the sanctuary bears its testimony death for those sins has already occurred, and atonement granted on that basis. The only question remaining open to God's court is why those sins took place.

The sinner's motives are already covered in the confession and atonement. The sacrificial blood bears testimony to the sinner's contribution. What is left?

Ephesians 2:1-3 talks of the "prince of the power of the air" which works in the sons of disobedience, which believers also succumbed to. Satan's own contribution to our sins are NOT covered by the blood of the sacrifice.

Hence, when Satan accuses God's people before the Throne, it is presented by Christ that His blood already represents the believing participant in the atoning process. That includes confession, repentance, and the acceptance of God's sovereignty over the soul. What it does not include are the actions Satan took to entice the sinner to sin against God.

Applying this to the sacrifice of Christ...many Christians like to think that Christ's sacrifice on the Cross was all that was needed. I answer yes and no. Yes, one sacrifice is all that was needed. No, one presentation of that perfect sacrifice was not all the plan of salvation required.

I look at the earthly type, Leviticus 16:30 states the participant will be clean - separated from sin and its record. In essence, vindicated through the substitutionary sacrifice. When I look to the heavenly anti-type, there is the same language present - the Holy is cleansed/set right/vindicated (Daniel 8:14) and the people of God (7:22). Interestingly, it is the Adventist perspective of Daniel 7 which gives us the Biblical concept of the Investigative Judgment...and there, the setting of judgment is NOT against believers, but AGAINST the Little Horn and IN FAVOR of the believers. This fits the Day of Atonement perfectly, as it is seen in Leviticus 16.

Christ, as our burnt offering and our High Priest, offers up His own blood as testimony that He - and every human is included in with that presentation. That is why Paul can make his statements justification to life is universally applicable to all the human race in Romans 5.

Christ, as our sin offering and our High Priest, offers up His own blood as testimony that He is indeed the One we are found in. He identified with our sinfulness, we identify with His righteousness. His death is indeed our death, and His blood is mute testimony to our confession, repentance, and the acceptance of God's sovereignty over our souls.

Christ, in presenting His blood before the Father in the day of Atonement,gives the believer the assurance His blood is the all sufficient sacrifice. We take heart that through the Investigative judgment, the atonement He has already granted and declared is still in effect. His blood stands as testimony His people should be forever separated from sin and sinfulness.

We are forgiven - so we can believe in this Investigative Judgment.

Food for thought...

Blessings,

[debbym]

Quote:

Forgiveness comes BEFORE anyone can start believing, because the act of believing is proof of our being attached to Christ.

I am not sure why you feel you have to get all these details lined up, that somehow it gives more meaning and power tot he "true pure gospel"

we are born again by the seed of the word of God.

when a seed sprouts it begins to grow.. it follows the laws of nature and life.

when we come alive spiritually there are laws of life that govern that growth.

if we look at nature we can see the p[rinciples and order of the development of life and find lessons that speak to the development of spiritual life.

Quote:

A seed is the part of a seed plant which can grow into a new plant. It is a reproductive structure which disperses,[1] and can survive for some time. A typical seed includes three basic parts: (1) an embryo, (2) a supply of nutrients for the embryo, and (3) a seed coat.

There are many different kinds of seeds. Some plants make a lot of seeds, some make only a few. Seeds are often hard and very small, but some are larger. The coconut is as big as a child's head, but it contains more than just a seed. At the start, seeds are dormant (resting inside their coat) for a while. When the seed is ready to develop, it needs water, air and warmth but not sunlight to become a seedling.

Seeds carry the food that helps the new plant begin to grow. This food store is in the endosperm, and/or in the cotyledons.

when we exercise faith and confess and receive forgiveness it is because god's spirit who speaks to every human being, has been wooing and bringing to us himself.

the parable of the sower describes how life can quickly spring up in human hearts, the seed can sprout quickly and easily.

but for those plants to reach maturity they must have more conditions.

God broadcasts his love everywhere on everyone. Not everyone is willing to continue on to accept more and more of God in their heart, mind, life. It is God himself being with us and being in us that brings growth and more faith and more of what he has to give us.

i believe we are forgiven so we can then experience giving forgiveness.

God lets us know that he believes in us, so we can then believe in him. God believes in us, because He knows that we are able to receive from him everything we need so we can then enter life God equipped to do everything he asks us to do and to be everything he asks us to be. God knows his plan is able to save us, God believes in our ability to receive his love and come fully alive and even to fully mature.

we receive God's love so we can experience giving His love.

everything we do and everything we give in our walk with God, is what we have first received from him. and God gives to everyone generously and liberally. and then we decide if we will accept, and then in turn give.

[joeb]

Great post, debbym. Well said.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Rom 12:3 compliments what my post pointed out.

It was God Who attached man to the body of His Son on the cross (Eph 2:11-19). Through the death of our Savior, man was forgiven (Col 2:13,14) and through His resurrection we were given new life, that is, born again (1 Pet 1:3) and made spiritually alive (Eph 2:4,5). Being attached to Christ Who is his Strength (Phil 4:13), man is empowered to overcome evil (Rom 12:21). And for his deeds to be pleasing to God, man need to have faith (Heb 11:6). So God gave man faith (Rom 12:3). This is why faith is both gift (1 Cor 12:4, 9) and fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22).

Again, faith comes after being attached to Christ.

So in your mind unbelievers and those who have rejected Christ are attached to Christ? Romans 12:3 makes it plain that even those people are given "the measure of faith".

Again, as I had repeatedly posted, Adam & Eve and all their descendants were all attached to Christ on the cross (Rom 5:18; Eph 2:11-19; Col 2:13,14). Among these, are those who until their death, remained unbelievers and rejected Christ, and therefore are non-overcomers. Their names will be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5). Blotting out of a name is, in effect, removing the person from being part of the body of Christ. When the Savior comes again they will suffer the wrath of God (Matt 16:27; Rom 2:5-8) and ultimately will be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

[Samie]

After JoeB, DebbyM, and I pretty much ended our posting on this thread, Samie resurrected it to post his premise.

I've followed along, just to see how things would unfold. To wit, Samie, your premise (a man is forgiven, therefore is free to be forgiven) you do back up with Scripture, albeit a clumsily at first.

Where we part ways is on your stated point there is no record of sins in heaven.

[Ted Oplinger]

You seem to misunderstand my point, Samie. I think we might have to agree to disagree between our perspectives as to what happens in the atoning process.

My understanding is as follows:

The Old Testament lays out the atoning process in figures, symbols, and types - what happened in the earthly Tabernacle was the symbol illustration of what God is currently doing in the heavenly Tabernacle in resolving the sin issue for mankind.

The sin sacrifice (in Leviticus 4) of the Tabernacle service shows a clear transference of the sin from the sinner to the sacrifice. When the sacrifice died, and the blood collected, the blood represented the testimony the one bearing the sin had died. All of the pollution of the sinner was transferred to the sacrifice; every bit of the sacrifice was polluted with sin - even the blood.

After the sacrifice was dead, atonement had not been made yet: the High Priest (or his designate) still had to take this blood (being the record of the sinner's sin AND death) into the Holy Place and sprinkle it before the veil separating the Mercy Seat and the Altar of Incense. Hence, a record of sin and death of sinners occurred in the Holy Place. Only when this record was placed in the Holy Place was the High Priest permitted to come out and announce the atoning of the sinner to God.

All of this is recorded in Leviticus 4.

A clear reading of Leviticus 16 states the need for the Day of Atonement was that the Holy Place was polluted with the transgressions of Israel. The record accumulating needed to be reckoned, balanced, and removed from the Holy Place.

All of this was the illustration God conveyed to us to show us what He would be doing with His own Blood in the heavenly Tabernacle.

It is clear Christ is our sin sacrifice -our sin became His sin. He carried His blood into the Holy Place of Heaven, and presented this sin, and its death, for every person who would ever be conceived within the human race. A record of sin and death was placed in heaven, before our Father, and the Son sat down at His right hand on the throne when this was done.

When we confess our sins and repent, Jesus applies the merit of that One sin sacrifice to us, resulting in our atonement and fixing our place in the record of sin and death. However, not everyone wants to participate in this process

In 1844, the heavenly counterpart to the earthly Day of Atonement began, to cleanse the Holy Place in heaven. The why is for the exact same reason as seen in Leviticus 16: the records of our sin and death pollutes the place, and they must be removed.

The blood sacrifice needed is already there - it is Christ's own blood as the slain Lord's Goat. You are correct - Hebrews does say the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin; that is why it is solely the blood of Christ (which the Lord's Goat blood was only a symbol of) which does the cleansing.

As the Book of Leviticus describes the complete atonement process, I do not - and cannot - accept the premise that "everything was completed" at the Cross.

At the Cross, only the Lamb sacrifice was slain. Even 3 days later, Christ had not been to heaven as yet, to present the merits of His own Blood before our Father.

Just because the sacrifice was accomplished did not mean the atoning process was complete. The High Priest still had to make certain the merits of the sacrifice were carried into the presence of God, and place the record of the sinner's confession/repentance, sin, and record of death before God. Only then could the priest come back to the sinner and pronounce atonement - but the overall process was still not complete.

At the Cross, Jesus was the Sinner's Sacrifice...but He was not yet our High Priest, interceding to us. That came only after He ascended into heaven and picked up that responsibility on our behalf.

As we confess our sins and repent, our sin and death is placed in that record which is before God. The merits of Christ's death are reckoned to us; atonement is granted us, but the atoning process is by no means completed yet. The record of sin and death must be removed prior to Christ opening the veil between heaven and earth. That record is blotted out with His own blood, and God will remember it no more.

Ezekiel 18 gives us a good insight into this process.

When the wicked man lives wickedly for a long time, then confesses and repents - participates in the atonement - Ezekiel's words there say that when all is finished, that man will live - because Leviticus 4 and 16 testify the man's record of sin and death was found to be present before God, then blotted out, both in symbol then, and in reality at the end of all things As Jesus applies His merits to both points.

When the supposedly righteous man lives righteously for a long while, then stops doing so, but chooses to live wickedly until the end of his days, the testimony here is that this man will not be reckoned as righteous and atoned for; he may have participated to a point, but he ceased his confession and repentance before the atonement process was completed. Unconfessed and retained sin remains to him; that record is not before God, so it cannot be granted to him atonement, nor could they be blotted out. He dies without mercy when all is said and done, as he has not participated fully in the process in type in Leviticus 4 and 16, and hence would not be found in the reality with the heavenly sacrifices.

The difference between what I understand the Bible testimony to be, and what I see you posting:

Where I see your thoughts as either not completely stated, or lacking, is the consideration that the atonement of the sinner is a process incomplete until God makes that process final at the end of the day of Atonement. The atoning process is not completed until that day He pronounces His declaration found in Revelation 22:11. Until that time, we are to fully participate in the atoning process as a daily practice, until we either sleep in the grave or see Him coming in the clouds of glory.

To answer a question before it is raised by someone...no, this record is not being held over our heads to make sure we're good boys and girls to the end. As we grow in Christ, we are maintain this record being with Christ, represented by His blood, and not reckoned to us. He is our Sin-Bearer, and after He take our sins and death away from us, we are not at liberty to call the process "completed" for all time until He has done so.

We can treated them as "blotted out" and "remembered no more", because that is indeed the way God treats us while He is finishing the atoning process He is completing in heaven - but He has not yet completed that process. The record of sin and death is not blotted out "again", Samie - it is blotted out only once - and that at the very end of the Day of Atonement.

So long as we continue participating in the process of confession, repentance, and humble submission to God, we have no fear. The record of our sin (and death because of sin) is present before God in the reality of Christ's blood. We take comfort in the fact that when the Day of Atonement is finished, that record will be no more. We may also approach God in complete confidence that in the present, God treats us as if the "blotting and remembering no more" is already an accomplished fact - just as He accepted the righteous of the old Testament as if Christ's sacrifice was already and accomplished fact.

Should a believer stop tomorrow and live wickedly, Samie, what does Ezekiel 18 say will be one's final fate? Do you think anyone will really stand justified before God (a la Romans 5) with unrepented sin?

Blessings,

[joeb]

Again, as I had repeatedly posted, Adam & Eve and all their descendants were all attached to Christ on the cross (Rom 5:18; Eph 2:11-19; Col 2:13,14). Among these, are those who until their death, remained unbelievers and rejected Christ, and therefore are non-overcomers. Their names will be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5). Blotting out of a name is, in effect, removing the person from being part of the body of Christ. When the Savior comes again they will suffer the wrath of God (Matt 16:27; Rom 2:5-8) and ultimately will be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

I'm in agreement with Ted about how the lessons taught by the Sanctuary services and day of atonement are in disagreement with your analysis.

Also, you'll see that your understanding of Rev.3:5 does not jibe with Rev. 13:8, 17:8.

Seems to me you've been studying too much Jack Sequeira literature. Robert, who used to post a lot around here, was on this same theological bent, and Jack Sequeira was his spiritual "guru" so I'm assuming the same source of thought. If I'm wrong about that, I apologize in advance.

[Ted Oplinger]

From my understanding, Jack was spot on about the "in Christ" motif, from the point of who was included in Christ, and he had correctly deduced what that meant from the legal sense of justification by faith - how it differs markedly from what either the Catholics or mainstream Protestants taught as justification and righteousness by faith. He was also correct in teaching what faith's relationship is to the Divine power in the Word of God.

Where he went wrong, if I understand his work correctly, is in the application of both of these thoughts to our day-to-day experience with Jesus - the ramifications of that justification and faith within our day-to-day life. Here, he taught what was essentially a behavior-based legalism/perfectionism.

He began right on justification and faith, but faltered on the sanctification, taking faith, love, and mercy right out of the process. He did not understand what the Tabernacle's illustration (of the atonement process) taught as to how repentant sinners walked in the Day of Atonement atmosphere, nor how Jesus presides as our High Priest in today's Day of Atonement proceedings (aka, the Investigative Judgment).

He still related it to the old 1940-1950's idea of how the Investigative Judgement is conducted - which results in fear, legalism, and inability to confess one is wrong.

Unfortunately, I have found that quite a few people throw away the whole of a man's understanding, rather than deduce where he went wrong, and avoid making the same mistake. A.T. Jones was treated similarly - though Jack is no A.T. Jones...

Blessings,

[joeb]

From my understanding, Jack was spot on about the "in Christ" motif, from the point of who was included in Christ, and he had correctly deduced what that meant from the legal sense of justification by faith - how it differs markedly from what either the Catholics or mainstream Protestants taught as justification and righteousness by faith. He was also correct in teaching what faith's relationship is to the Divine power in the Word of God.

Where he went wrong, if I understand his work correctly, is in the application of both of these thoughts to our day-to-day experience with Jesus - the ramifications of that justification and faith within our day-to-day life. Here, he taught what was essentially a behavior-based legalism/perfectionism.

He began right on justification and faith, but faltered on the sanctification, taking faith, love, and mercy right out of the process. He did not understand what the Tabernacle's illustration (of the atonement process) taught as to how repentant sinners walked in the Day of Atonement atmosphere, nor how Jesus presides as our High Priest in today's Day of Atonement proceedings (aka, the Investigative Judgment).

He still related it to the old 1940-1950's idea of how the Investigative Judgement is conducted - which results in fear, legalism, and inability to confess one is wrong.

Unfortunately, I have found that quite a few people throw away the whole of a man's understanding, rather than deduce where he went wrong, and avoid making the same mistake. A.T. Jones was treated similarly - though Jack is no A.T. Jones...

Blessings,

I've read some of his writings and seen the results in posters around here and on other forums, and this seems to me to be the same place Samie is going with his theology. I may be wrong about that, but that's what it looks like to me. Hopefully I'm wrong.

[Ted Oplinger]

Yes, it appears that way. I'll wait and see if the thread unfolds more in that direction, or not.

Blessings,

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

Samie, your premise (a man is forgiven, therefore is free to be forgiven) you do back up with Scripture, albeit a clumsily at first.

That was not Samie’s ‘premise’.

This was Samie’s ‘premise’, APTLY presented WITH Scripture,

>>Rom 12:3 compliments what my post pointed out.

It was God Who attached man to the body of His Son on the cross (Eph 2:11-19). Through the death of our Savior, man was forgiven (Col 2:13,14) and through His resurrection we were given new life, that is, born again (1 Pet 1:3) and made spiritually alive (Eph 2:4,5). Being attached to Christ Who is his Strength (Phil 4:13), man is empowered to overcome evil (Rom 12:21). And for his deeds to be pleasing to God, man need to have faith (Heb 11:6). So God gave man faith (Rom 12:3). This is why faith is both gift (1 Cor 12:4, 9) and fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22).

Again, faith comes after being attached to Christ.<<

That is the Gospel – the FULL Gospel of Jesus Christ which He does not need to work on until this day and until He will Come Again to finish.

[Arwen]

Believing is a good act, and to ask the unforgiven man to first believe so he can be forgiven, is asking the unforgiven to do that which is impossible for the unforgiven to do.

The fact that men now are able to believe is proof enough men had been forgiven from all sins.

Any comments, forum mates?

Hi Samie

According to scripture:

The Devil believes (cf. James 2:19 )

Is Satan saved because of his belief?

Is Satan forgiven because of his belief?

[Arwen]

Hey Samie, another question

According to scripture:

Jesus said that some people who call Him Lord, Lord would not enter heaven.

Jesus will say He never knew them. (Matthew 24:21-23).

I assume that these people who call Jesus 'Lord' believe – but they will not be in heaven.

Why will these people who believe in Jesus not be in heaven?

[debbym]

because they never surrendered their will to God, they served god doing what they wanted to do. In this story Jesus further says, those who do the will of my Father, will be those who enter heaven.

Judas walked with Christ, but he reserved himself, and kept his selfish interests on the top above God's interests.

the question is do we live for our glory or do we live for God's glory?

we can say Lord Lord, and do great things in God's name and still do them for our glory.

[joeb]

Quote:

I am quite familiar with the verses he is using to support his premise, and his initial premise does find a favorable view to my rationale - that is why the building of the case appeared clumsy/inefficient to me. However, the way I would have approached that premise could very likely appear clumsy in your eyes, right?

So you're in agreement that every person on earth has been attached to Christ? In view of the Book of life, in which everyone's name is not written, how do you support that? And, just how do you see a person being attached to Christ in cases where there is no positive relationship(friendship or agreement) with Christ, and in fact there is either animosity or indifference towards Him?

Maybe you and I see being "attached" to Christ from much different paradigms.

[joeb]

because they never surrendered their will to God, they served god doing what they wanted to do. In this story Jesus further says, those who do the will of my Father, will be those who enter heaven.

Judas walked with Christ, but he reserved himself, and kept his selfish interests on the top above God's interests.

the question is do we live for our glory or do we live for God's glory?

we can say Lord Lord, and do great things in God's name and still do them for our glory.

I agree with your analysis of Judas. To me this shows no attachment to, or real relationship with, Jesus. It was, from Judas' point of view, a relationship of convenience, of one where Judas was covering his bases looking to get himself ahead of the curve.

[Ted Oplinger]

Quote:

I am quite familiar with the verses he is using to support his premise, and his initial premise does find a favorable view to my rationale - that is why the building of the case appeared clumsy/inefficient to me. However, the way I would have approached that premise could very likely appear clumsy in your eyes, right?

So you're in agreement that every person on earth has been attached to Christ? In view of the Book of life, in which everyone's name is not written, how do you support that? And, just how do you see a person being attached to Christ in cases where there is no positive relationship(friendship or agreement) with Christ, and in fact there is either animosity or indifference towards Him?

Maybe you and I see being "attached" to Christ from much different paradigms.

JoeB,

Romans 5, 6 and 2 Corinthians 5 are explicitly clear - Every person was put into Christ when He became our new Adam. Romans 5 is explicitly clear: in Christ ALL stand justified. Yes, that is a universal point. Paul affirms this point in 2 Corinthians 5:14, 15 - Christ just didn't die FOR us, He carried each one of us with Him into that death. When our new Adam died, we died with Him. All of us.

When Christ, as our new Adam was raised from the dead, it guaranteed every one of us would live again. ALL of us would be resurrected.

Now, go back and look at 2 Corinthians 5:15 - "He died for all, so that they MIGHT no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf."

Notice the conditional here - MIGHT - sandwiched among the absolutes of what Christ has done for ALL people. Christ, as our new Adam, included every person into Himself to attach them to new life - but it still remains to the individual whether to accept that new attachment or NOT.

That attaching aspect, we had no choice in - just like we had no choice but to accept the first Adam's sin legacy as well.

We choose between remaining attached to Christ, or we choose to accept the legacy of sin.

Those accepting Christ's attaching them into Himself are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Those refusing this attachment are not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life - but they must still participate in the power of resurrection...they have no other choice.

That is why we see two resurrections: both are powered by the inclusion of every person into the resurrection of our Second Adam.

As far as outward deportment...This placement in Christ is what Paul calls "the new inward man", and much of the reality of what belongs to the "new inward man" is buried by the flesh - there is little evidence of it on the outside.

We must accept this "new/inward man" as any other promise/action of God - by faith. Many times, what God declares as true has little or no evidence of reality in the real world; so much of our salvation does depend upon the power of the spoken word of God. God's word unfolds and manifests itself over time - either instantly (in some cases) or drawn out over a long period (most cases). Where today there may be indifference or animosity, tomorrow there could be deep abiding love. Why do you think some sins find such a startling change, while others take a long time to manifest?

We do not know when a person may clue into this placement Christ has already made for them, or if they will throw it away and believe the flesh has a better argument.

What we call "conversion" and "accepting Christ" is in reality our cluing in and accepting the reality of what Christ has already done with us. 2 Corinthians 15:16 follows up with, "Therefore from now on we recognize ...no Christian?....no Church member?...No, the words there are the universal NO ONE...according to the flesh".

Even today, the Remnant still has not clued into what Paul turned the world upside-down with, as a whole. Recognition that our place in Christ is not one of our doing, but of His already accomplished action, is what drives the Third Angel's message.

Blessings,

[joeb]

Ted,

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I do not get the same idea from chapters 5 and 6 of Romans and IICorinthians 5 that you do.

I see no attachment to Christ in the ungodly. I see said attachment made only when we accept the free gift. Yes, the gift is made available to all men, but having the gift available to us is not the same as making use of the gift. And, you still haven't addressed the issue of the Book of Life (Rev. 17:8). It speaks of a group of individuals whose names were not written in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world. This group is made up of those who wonder after the beast, i.e. those not saved.

No where do I see any reference to blotting out anyone from the book of life other than those who have accepted Christ at one time and then broken that attachment. That's what is referred to in Rev. 3:5 as this is Jesus speaking to members of the church of Sardis, not those who have never accepted Him. Context is king. Saying that this verse applies to even those who have never accepted Christ is a very great stretch. It's much too large a stretch for me to even begin to make.

[Samie]

The current issue is whether atonement was completed at the cross or not.

...

As the Book of Leviticus describes the complete atonement process, I do not - and cannot - accept the premise that "everything was completed" at the Cross.

At the Cross, only the Lamb sacrifice was slain. Even 3 days later, Christ had not been to heaven as yet, to present the merits of His own Blood before our Father.

Just because the sacrifice was accomplished did not mean the atoning process was complete.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Believing is a good act, and to ask the unforgiven man to first believe so he can be forgiven, is asking the unforgiven to do that which is impossible for the unforgiven to do.

The fact that men now are able to believe is proof enough men had been forgiven from all sins.

Any comments, forum mates?

Hi Samie

According to scripture:

The Devil believes (cf. James 2:19 )

Is Satan saved because of his belief?

Is Satan forgiven because of his belief?

Hi Arwen;

I am sorry, brother, but your style of questioning deserves a question which when you can correctly answer, then, you have answered your own two questions as well.

According to the Bible, is Satan included in the plan of redemption for mankind?