A Man Can Believe Because He Had Been Forgiven

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Again, as I had repeatedly posted, Adam & Eve and all their descendants were all attached to Christ on the cross (Rom 5:18; Eph 2:11-19; Col 2:13,14). Among these, are those who until their death, remained unbelievers and rejected Christ, and therefore are non-overcomers. Their names will be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5). Blotting out of a name is, in effect, removing the person from being part of the body of Christ. When the Savior comes again they will suffer the wrath of God (Matt 16:27; Rom 2:5-8) and ultimately will be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

I'm in agreement with Ted about how the lessons taught by the Sanctuary services and day of atonement are in disagreement with your analysis.

Also, you'll see that your understanding of Rev.3:5 does not jibe with Rev. 13:8, 17:8.

Seems to me you've been studying too much Jack Sequeira literature. Robert, who used to post a lot around here, was on this same theological bent, and Jack Sequeira was his spiritual "guru" so I'm assuming the same source of thought. If I'm wrong about that, I apologize in advance.

joeb;

Could you explain why you said my "understanding of Rev.3:5 does not jibe with Rev. 13:8, 17:8"?

As for Jack Sequeira, who is he? Seems like it's you who studied what he wrote. I only study and present Scriptures, not any other man's thoughts.

And yes, your apologies given in advance are accepted.

[Samie]

Hey Samie, another question

According to scripture:

Jesus said that some people who call Him Lord, Lord would not enter heaven.

Jesus will say He never knew them. (Matthew 24:21-23).

I assume that these people who call Jesus 'Lord' believe – but they will not be in heaven.

Why will these people who believe in Jesus not be in heaven?

Because their names were blotted out from the book of life. Why were their names blotted out from the book of life? Because they are not overcomers. (see Rev 3:5; 21:27)

[Ted Oplinger]

That's OK, JoeB. I'm not here to win any arguments, just to share what the Bible says.

Maybe another day, we can share on that point.

As I understand the Bible to read, and with respect to having one's name being written in the Lamb's Book of Life...I believe people labor under the illusion one must do something first before God writes our names into that Book. I see this as being contrary to Ephesians 2:8, 9, as that would mean we do have a contribution toward our own salvation. We don't. If we cannot do anything - however small - to contribute to salvation and eternal life, why is it we suddenly have the notion we must earn a spot by exercising our power of choice, that our names should be written into the Book of Life?

Many people have the notion we are automatically lost, unless we do something about it. I believe the Bible contends just the opposite - we are automatically saved, unless we choose to do something about it. Unfortunately, hundreds of millions throughout history have chosen to do just that - remove themselves from the gift God has long promised.

Hence, I currently understand that people's names start off written in the Lamb's Book of Life; if people choose to reject God through rebellion and/or unbelief, God honors their choice and blots their name out, as He will not bring into heaven any human that really doesn't want to be there, nor forces them to trust His Word/promises - the latter of which is the very essence of sin. Even after one should make such a choice, He would still try to woo them back to Himself.

As for the text you reference, consider: by the time Revelation 17:8 is shown to be occurring, every case will already have been decided. It is after the close of probation.

Chapter 15-17 form a complete package, detailing what happens after Christ declares those fateful words, "Let he who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness, and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy".

The "whole world following after the beast" is the symbol for that collection of the world's population who either have rebelled against God's authority, or refused to believe God's promises are true for them. They aren't written in the Lamb's Book of Life because they have already demonstrated to God they have made their choice - and have already been removed. These will not repent - even when they know they are on the wrong side of the issue (Revelation 16 reveals this plainly).

To put this more in a simpler terms - it doesn't matter if they start off written therein and are subsequently removed, or if they never got their ticket punched so as to have their name written therein. The context is speaking of people on the other side of probation's closing, as this passage is referring to what happens to the Beast (verse 1, 14-17) during the very last movements. As Chapter 17 continues the narrative of Chapter 16, this places the context of chapter 17 after the finish of the Gospel work - not before.

Only when we get to chapter 18, do we see a break in the vision similar to that occurring for chapter 15. There, God directs John's vision to another aspect of the closing Gospel work and what it is contending with.

That's how I understand the issues raised on Revelation 17:8.

Blessings,

[Ted Oplinger]

Samie,

From my perspective, you are conflating two distinctly different points: the moment reconciliation/atonement is granted, versus the completion of the atoning process. I fear you are getting wrapped up and losing details in the semantics.

Just because the human race has received an atonement, a reconciliation, does not mean that is the end of the whole process. God must finish the process He has started so as to make permanent what He has conditionally extended to humanity. That condition is that He completes the atonement process in the Tabernacle "made without hands, that the Lord pitched, and not man" - something He has promised He would do.

What I understand you to be saying, would be like an Old Testament believer saying everything was completed when he slew the sin offering and obtained the atonement/reconciliation from the High Priest. The Tabernacle does not declare that to be the case.

From Passover to Day of Atonement, God instructed His people to act out the very symbols and means by which He illustrated how was going to remove sin from mankind. It is a process initiated by and finished by God, and was the pre-Cross Gospel.

During this process, those who sinned participated in the process by going through the ritual which demonstrated how God lifted sin away from man, and placed in on the symbol of His sacrifice. And like I stated before, the Bible is very clear that once the sacrifice was slain and the blood received into the bowl, the High Priest still must bear the record of sin and death into the presence of God - that record being the blood shed. There, that record remained until the Day came when God declared that record was to be purged from His presence - again, with the blood shed.

You quote the Romans 5 verses which clearly indicate the High Priest's atoning work after the sin sacrifice (Leviticus 4), but by no means had the High Priest completed the whole process God instructed to be demonstrated.

At the Cross, Christ became our sin sacrifice, and when He ascended to heaven to minister as our High Priest, He bore His own blood to be the record of humanity's sin and death to reside in the presence of the Father. Christ announced through Paul the very thing the earthly High Priest declared to the penitent offerer in Leviticus 4 - reconciliation/atonement. Yet, our record of sin and death remains in the presence of the Father, as He has yet to complete the that which makes the atonement permanent. That will happen on that day the Father tells Christ our High Priest to purge it from His presence - again, by the very same Blood shed will He blot it all out.

We can only consider atonement accomplished, because God has promise He would finish everything on His end - and God is true to His promises.

Blessings,

[Samie]

Ted,

Explanations cannot supersede Scriptures. You cannot back up your claim with Scriptures that atonement was not completed at the cross, can you? If you could, go ahead, brother.

For my part, I have shown how Scriptures prove my point. When our Savior died, we were atoned or reconciled to God (Rom 5:10,1l). I had shown Bible verses that say it is only when atonement is completed that forgiveness of sin occurs (see Lev 4:20, 26, 31, 35; 5:10, 13, 16, 18; 6:7; 16:30; 19:22; Num 15:25, 28). Since Col 2:13 says we were already forgiven, therefore, atonement had been completed. Scriptures refer not to "days of atonement" believed to have started in 1844, but rather to a "day of atonement" (Lev 23:27,28; 25:9) . This day of atonement occurred when the Savior offered Himself on the cross, for Christ need not die more than once (Heb 7:27).

What the tabernacle services on the day of atonement did annually in the Old Covenant (Heb 10:1), Christ did but once in the New Covenant (Heb 7:27), securing our atonement or reconciliation (Rom 5:10,11). Since then, sins committed are no longer imputed against man (2 Cor 5:18,19), although any sin committed is proof that the person is not yet an overcomer (Rom 12:21). Should he die a non-overcomer, his name will be blotted out from the book of life (Heb 9:27; Rev 3:5).

[Ted Oplinger]

Ted,

Explanations cannot supersede Scriptures. You cannot back up your claim with Scriptures that atonement was not completed at the cross, can you? If you could, go ahead, brother.

For my part, I have shown how Scriptures prove my point. When our Savior died, we were atoned or reconciled to God (Rom 5:10,1l). I had shown Bible verses that say it is only when atonement is completed that forgiveness of sin occurs (see Lev 4:20, 26, 31, 35; 5:10, 13, 16, 18; 6:7; 16:30; 19:22; Num 15:25, 28). Since Col 2:13 says we were already forgiven, therefore, atonement had been completed. Scriptures refer not to "days of atonement" believed to have started in 1844, but rather to a "day of atonement" (Lev 23:27,28; 25:9) . This day of atonement occurred when the Savior offered Himself on the cross, for Christ need not die more than once (Heb 7:27).

What the tabernacle services on the day of atonement did annually in the Old Covenant (Heb 10:1), Christ did but once in the New Covenant (Heb 7:27), securing our atonement or reconciliation (Rom 5:10,11). Since then, sins committed are no longer imputed against man (2 Cor 5:18,19), although any sin committed is proof that the person is not yet an overcomer (Rom 12:21). Should he die a non-overcomer, his name will be blotted out from the book of life (Heb 9:27; Rev 3:5).

No, explanations do not supercede Scriptures. I have, though, communicated enough in my explanation that one learned in the Word should have no trouble at all referencing the Scriptures from whence these principles come.

However, you asked - so in the morning, I shall go through this, Lord willing. And, also Lord willing, I will address the overcoming point you raise in this post.

For one who professes ignorance of who Jack Seguira is, your thoughts in this post correlate remarkably to his teachings.

Blessings,

[Samie]

No, explanations do not supercede Scriptures. I have, though, communicated enough in my explanation that one learned in the Word should have no trouble at all referencing the Scriptures from whence these principles come.

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

No, explanations do not supercede Scriptures. I have, though, communicated enough in my explanation that one learned in the Word should have no trouble at all referencing the Scriptures from whence these principles come.

This is exactly why I wanted you to lay out your verses because I noticed that you - one learned in the word - referred to Lev 4 in your claim that the High Priest brings the record of sins (blood) to the holy place while Lev 4 refers only to the ministration of ordinary priests, not of the High Priest.

[Ted Oplinger]

As I promised, Samie - the following posts will outline the reasons for what I said above. Have patience, though, as I must start at an unlikely place.

These posts are not going to be debated. I will clarify certain points as needed, but I will not debate what follows - it is being presented solely because you asked where I obtained my perspective...

I start here, because I have found that whether inside or outside the Adventist church, I must clear up a major issue: that what was given in the Old Testament was a non-Gospel religion of works based upon animal sacrifices. Faith in the Gospel Promise has been the only way God has brought people through the redemption process.

1 Peter 1:18-20 "knowing you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from the futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ, for He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you."

The word for "foreknown" - "proginosko" - literally means, "to know beforehand".

The redemption by the Lamb of God - Christ - was known beforehand since the foundation of the world. Hence, there never was a time Christ's redeeming blood did not cover the human race. All the Old Testament sacrifices and prophecies pointed toward it, starting with the very first prophecy written out in words:

Genesis 3:15 - "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel."

God promised a redeemer - a son of promise that would stand forth at the head of the human race and crush Satan's head - a new Adam of God's promise.

If Christ was known beforehand since the foundation of the world, beginning with this prophecy, then it stands to good reason the Gospel of Christ was just as much Old Testament as it is New Testament.

The Gospel to Abraham.

How did Abraham come by the Gospel, nearly 2000 years before the Cross? Jesus quite plainly declared to the Jews of His day that Abraham did indeed recognize the Gospel, and was glad:

John 8:56 - "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it, and was glad."

Clearly, Christ is not simply pulling this out of thin air. By the Father's direction, He plainly told them Abraham well understood the Gospel as it is in Christ - and rejoiced over it. How could Christ Jesus make such a point?

Because Christ instructed Abraham with a vivid example. Let's go to Genesis 22 and read the passage of what God told Abraham to do with Isaac. Verse 2 contains the points to clue in:

"Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac" - Which "only son"? Isaac, or Ishmael? God is referring here to the "only son" of the promise: Isaac (Genesis 18:9-15)

[inserted point - "Only son" also points to John 3:16, where Jesus Himself says of His Father, "For God so loved the world He gave His one and only son" to illustrate both the love and uniqueness involved in this relationship. Who was Jesus? The Son according to the promise.]

What was Abraham to do? "Go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you."

What did Abraham understand about the burn offering? It was God's instructed way in approaching God, atoning for sin, and participating in the promised redemption. A substitutionary sacrifice representing the sinner, voluntarily surrendered to God. It was to be completely reduced to ash.

Piecing together what Abraham knew of Isaac (from previous God moments in his life), this is what is reasonably what Abraham understood God to be commanding:

"Go now, and and take Isaac your son, whom you dearly love, the son according to My promise, and according to My promise through whom all nations shall be blessed, and voluntarily slay him as a substitutionary sacrifice for sin in My promised redemption, and reduce his body to ashes, at the place I will tell you of."

The passage says Abraham did not even blink - he set off immediately to do just this. Abraham had faith in God, as evidenced in verse 5, where he tells the servants to stay behind: "...I and the lad will go over there, and we will worship and return to you." Abraham knew, in spite of what he knew about the burnt offering, both he and his son would return, alive, if indeed God was going to be true to His promise beyond this point in time.

Verses 7, 8: 'Where is the lamb?" Honest question by Isaac. "God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering".

As these words feel out of Abraham's mouth, I doubt he really understood the importance of what he just pronounced...but he did later.

Verse 9 - Abraham builds the altar, stacks the wood - then, to Isaac's surprise - binds up Isaac, scooping his beloved son up and placing him atop the wood. I cannot help but think Abraham is either in tears at this point, or doing all he can to stuff those tears back. He knows God does not require human sacrifice, like the heathen nations around him did, yet God is commanding this to be done.

Verse 10 - Abraham prepares to slay Isaac...and in verse 11, God intervenes at the last possible moment.

Verse 12 - Abraham has passed the test. However, it is not enough to say Abraham is truly trusting now; God puts in it in very precise terms, "since you have do this thing, and not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."

God then revealed the substitution to Abraham at this point, with the words, "you have...not withheld your son, your only son, from Me" still echoing in his ears. That animal? A ram, found as a sacrifice in the burnt (Leviticus 1:10), sin (Leviticus 3:23), and guilt offerings (Leviticus 5:15 and 6:6) in the Tabernacle daily services, as well as in the burnt offering of the Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16:5).

The Gospel to Abraham pointed to both the Daily Service and the Yearly Service aspects of the Gospel, as illustrated by the Tabernacle - but I return to this point later.

In verse 14, Abraham did indeed put it all together when he named this mountain in the Moriah region, "In the mount of the Lord it will be provided"

The Gospel to Abraham:

At a place and time of God's choosing, He will provide the sacrifice for sin, atonement, and worship. That sacrifice would be God's Son, his only Son to be the promised Redeemer as prophesied to Adam. Father and son rejoiced.

Christ affirms this when He declared, "Abraham saw My day, and rejoiced, and was glad."

I will post how the New Testament builds upon this, in my next post: The Gospel Process illustrated by Abraham.

Blessings

[Ted Oplinger]

The Gospel Process as Illustrated by Abraham

Above, I outlined in brief that the Gospel was known beforehand - it is not a New Dispensation thing, but rather something found from the earliest of the Old Testament. The Gospel was given to Abraham, he understood what is was, and rejoiced to see the Promised Gospel: At a time and place of His choosing, God would take the seed, declared since Adam, from Abraham through Isaac. That seed would be the Redeemer, the provided offering for the human race, who would be God's beloved only Son.

Christ affirmed this when He said Abraham saw His day, rejoiced, and was glad, in John 8:56.

Paul expands upon this point of the Gospel to Abraham in a series of passages in Galatians 3.

After chastising the Galatians for so soon leaving the Gospel faith, Paul begins to build his case that the Gospel of Christ is not a simple believe in the Cross and all is done - the Gospel reveals a process which people must continue to participate in until God can finally be united with his children again. Paul unfolds this first in Abraham, then extends this to the Tabernacle service.

Verses 2 and 5 ask the exact same question, and it is a good place to start: How does God interface with man? Does God require man's overcoming in aligning his behavior and motives into harmony with God's Law, before moving upon him with His Spirit? Or does God first declare His words, promises, and covenant, then man believes/trusts these words and promises by faith?

Paul answers by stating plainly in verse 6: "Even so, Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness" (Paul references Genesis 15:6)

A question: Can a man be both righteous and a sinner simultaneously? Common sense says one or the other must be. Then God reckoning Abraham as righteous is synonymous with declaring atonement - by faith.

When did this reckoning occur? After the Mountain in Moriah experience, where he passed his test of faith? No. The context of Genesis 15:6 places this reckoning of righteous as that point where Abraham had parted with Lot and began to wander in the Promised Land.

As we read in Genesis, this was by no means the end to the atonement. Paul illustrates this was but one step in a process Abraham continued to participate in all of his life - despite his failings.

In worshiping God and knowing what burnt offering was required, Abraham is shown as knowing how to approach the Lord out of habit. Abraham continued his participation with every burnt offering he lifted up before God, even as he was reckoned righteous by his faith. Verse 7 continues:

"Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham." We can be certain of our place among the sons of Abraham because of faith - God speaks, He promises, He affirms, and we trust/believe - which follows through in our participating.

To make certain these Gentiles knew they were not "second-rate sons", Paul now drops another couple of Gospel clues of the process in verse 8: "The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify <justify=declare righteous> the Gentiles by faith, preached the Gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'All the nations shall be blessed in you.'"

When did this occur? Genesis 12:3 - when Abraham was still named Abram, and had just responded to being called away from Haran, in the land of the Chaldeans. In other words, at the very beginning of Abraham's journey. Going further back into time and journey, Paul assures that these Galatians are participant in the same Gospel journey as was Abraham, going through the exact same process:

1) Having the Gospel preached to them - calling one away from the realm of sin (Genesis 12:1-3);

2) Responding in faith to the Gospel, beginning that journey (Genesis 12:3-4);

3) During that journey, believing the promises of God, resulting in God declaring the believer righteous (Genesis 15:6);

4) at the time and place of God's choosing, God reveals Who the Gospel is centered upon: the Son of Promise, God's Promised Redeemer (Genesis 22:1-13);

5) People of faith would continue to lift up the Redeemer's sacrifice, to continue participating in this process until their place in the process was finished (Genesis 22:14-18); and

6) At the time and place of His choosing, God did send His beloved Son in Promise as our Promised Redeemer, as illustrated by the Tabernacle, as the continuing process God was revealing to His people as He is effecting the Plan of Redemption for mankind.

While getting slightly ahead of myself with #6, we see the process of the Gospel in Abraham's life - but this process would continue long after Abraham died. So long as Abraham participated in the Gospel process by his faith in God's promise, he continued in being reckoned as righteous by the word of the Lord (as attested to by James in James 2:21-24 on the very same Mountain of Moriah experience Christ affirms was Abraham's recognition of the Gospel in faith). While Genesis 15:6 showed where Abraham was declared righteous by God, it was not until 40 yrs and 7 chapters later, in Genesis 22:1-18, where Abraham's continued participation in the process (through all of the failings Abraham did in the intervening chapters) was in fact fully demonstrated in the Gospel illustration of lifting up his son (at God's command) in sacrifice to God.

Had Abraham stopped at Genesis 15:6 with his own atonement - his own being reckoned as righteous - Genesis 22:1-18 would never have happened.

Abraham's continued participation by faith allows Paul to continue his teaching on this point: in verse 9, Paul assures the Galatians, "So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham the believer." Actually, Paul states literally, "with the believing Abraham". Paul includes the Galatians as part of the Gospel process Abraham also entered upon by faith - "with the believing Abraham".

It must be said that even though Gentile believers, the Galatians were quite familiar with Abraham and his life history - else Paul could not have used Abraham as such a vivid illustration throughout this chapter. Had they been unfamiliar with Abraham as a people, Abraham's example in history as a believer would have been completely lost upon these people. Thus, they understood also Abraham's mountain of Moriah experience - this experience, also, illustrated Abraham's faith, allowing Paul to use Abraham's faith and experience in the Gospel to point directly to Christ - just as Abraham's Moriah experience did for Abraham.

For those who would answer his questions posed in verse 2 and 5 incorrectly, Paul asserts in verse 10 what God has declared all along: "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse, for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all the things written in the book of the Law, to perform them'". He references Deuteronomy 27:26 - written nearly 500 years later. Man never approached God by doing the right works; it was always by faith that man was declared righteous (per Abraham's example). Indeed, the only way to "abide by all the things written in the book of the Law, to perform them" was by faith, as Paul concludes next in quoting Habakkuk 2:4, last phrase: "Now that no one is justified by the law before God is evident, for, 'The righteous man shall live by faith'."

No one - before or after the Cross was ever justified by "works of the Law". The very idea that what was given to the Jews was a religion of works to come to God is anathema to the Gospel preached to Abraham - or to Moses, who wrote those very words of Deuteronomy 27:26.

Now, let's back up a bit to verse 8, and notice the words, "The Scripture, foreseeing...". Who wrote those words? Moses is accredited authorship of Genesis, meaning Moses was inspired by God and shown the details of Abraham's life 500 years+ prior. God showed Moses this process He brought Abraham into on his journey, from the preaching of the Gospel, to the reckoning by God as being righteous, to the Mountain in Moriah experience (wherein Abraham saw Christ's day rejoiced, and was made glad, according to the words of Christ Himself).

Moses himself also entered into the Gospel process, by faith, and knew the Gospel, for the Gospel was preached to the people of Israel. Hebrews 11 lists several things Moses did by faith, not by works. Among these was accepting the reproaches of the Messiah as greater riches than the glory of Egypt (verse 26)...which would have meant nothing had Moses not known of the Gospel's promised Redeemer to come (and he knew he wasn't that promised Redeemer).

Then Hebrews 11 makes another point about Moses in verse 28: "By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the first-born would not touch them".

As if it were not enough to declare in verse 6 the parenthetical thought that without faith it is impossible to please God, the writer here states the reality of the first point in the Tabernacle's illustration of the Gospel process: the Passover was not a work of the Law, it was a sacrifice of faith - a sacrifice that allowed God to free His people of faith from enslavement.

I will continue in the next post with the Gospel given to Moses - and the Jews.

Blessings,

[Samie]

Thanks for the effort so far exerted, Ted. Except for some minor points, I have nothing against what you just posted in your last two posts. I have posted in this forum the 3 dimensions of the gospel which presents the everlasting gospel right from where it started - before the foundation of the world - sealed and ratified by the death of our Savior on the cross.

The first dimension entails the writings of names of Adam & Eve and all their descendants in the book of life contingent upon the death of the Lamb of God as typified by the death of the animal the skin of which was fashioned into the covering of the first couple in the garden of Eden and by subsequent animal sacrifices in the old covenant. In the first dimension, God made humanity, Jews and Gentiles, part of the body of His Son, and hence everyone was empowered to be able to overcome being attached to Him Who is their strength. This is God's work FOR man; all grace, not an iota of human participation.

When Adam & Eve was saved from the immediate death penalty on the same day they fell into sin, they (and all their coming descendants) started to live under the 2nd dimension of the gospel. In this dimension, sins committed are not imputed having been forgiven through the substitutionary death of animal sacrifices pointing forward to and contingent upon the death of the Lamb of God on the cross. God writes His law into our hearts and minds, works IN us both to will and to do of His good pleasure under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and should a person sin, God remembers that sin no more having been forgiven and paid for by the death of His Son. In this dimension we are to become overcomers by overcoming evil with good. An overcomer is one who when faced with the opportunity to commit sin refuses to commit the same sin again but instead does that which is good. This is the essence of repentance - turning away from sin. Only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life.

In the 3rd dimension of the gospel, God through Christ at the 2nd Coming will reward every man according to what he has done. Those whose names remained in the book of life being overcomers will inherit life eternal; all others will suffer the wrath of God and finally thrown into the lake of fire.

In Christ our Lord & Savior,

Samie

[Samie]

...

Samie, I can agree with you up to "Since then...."

I also do not agree "any sin committed is proof that the person is not yet an overcomer". In fact, Paul says "we" - all being still nothing but sinning sinners - "are more than overcomers through Jesus Christ".

[Ted Oplinger]

The next post will have to come tomorrow evening - between preparing this and what I need to do for Sabbath, my fingers are pretty much worn. The Gospel as given to Moses (and by extension, the peoples of Israel) is done, but it just needs transferring to electronic format.

Yes, I am still old fashioned, and do my preliminary sketch work using paper and pencil.

In these coming 3 posts, the Gospel process is anchored in to the Sanctuary format.

Sabbath Blessings,

[joeb]

joeb;

Could you explain why you said my "understanding of Rev.3:5 does not jibe with Rev. 13:8, 17:8"?

As for Jack Sequeira, who is he? Seems like it's you who studied what he wrote. I only study and present Scriptures, not any other man's thoughts.

And yes, your apologies given in advance are accepted.

In answer to your question about "jibe" as I'm assuming you're not familiar with with the word, it means to agree with.

Your interpretation of Rev 3:5 is that it applies to everyone on the earth. It does not. It is Christ speaking to the member of the church of Sardis. Rev 13:8, especially, makes clear that there is an entire group of people whose names were never writte in the "lambs book of life". This group is made up of those who "wonder after the beast". Thus they are those who do not have a saving relationship with Jesus. They are not attached to Christ in any way, shape or form.

[joeb]

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

joeb;

Could you explain why you said my "understanding of Rev.3:5 does not jibe with Rev. 13:8, 17:8"?

As for Jack Sequeira, who is he? Seems like it's you who studied what he wrote. I only study and present Scriptures, not any other man's thoughts.

And yes, your apologies given in advance are accepted.

...

Your interpretation of Rev 3:5 is that it applies to everyone on the earth.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Could you expand on this thought? I'm unsure of what you mean. Are you saying any sin committed after conversion means a person is not an "overcomer"? [/quote']The Bible says in Rom 12:21 that we have to overcome evil with good. You would agree with me that if one commits sin that person is overcome with evil, otherwise he would not have committed that sin in the first place. Therefore he who commits sin, is not yet an overcomer as far as that specific sin is concerned.

But the sin committed is not imputed against him because that sin had been forgiven on the cross (Col 2:13). However, that specific sin committed proves the person is not an overcomer yet. He must come to a point in his life where when faced with the opportunity to commit sin he refuses to commit the same sin again but instead does that which is good. If his response to the same situation is to do good again and again instead of committing the same sin all over again, he is then an overcomer.

Why was he able to overcome? Because he is attached to Christ Who is our strength. But why is a person overcome with evil? Because he refuses to overcome.

Have I made myself clear, brother?

[debbym]

Quote:

The Bible says in Rom 12:21 that we have to overcome evil with good. You would agree with me that if one commits sin that person is overcome with evil, otherwise he would not have committed that sin in the first place. Therefore he who commits sin, is not yet an overcomer as far as that specific sin is concerned.

The bible does not say we have to overcome evil with good, the bible says it as a command "to overcome evil with Good". it is following a discussion on counsel to not take revenge, to not overcome evil by taking revenge. saying the end does not justify the means, if you overcome evil by evil you will not succeed, but when you overcome evil with Good you will succeed.

additionally this discussion on what do you do when you are a christian and you sin, when you are expected to be able to not sin.

can a leopard change his spots, can you who are accustomed to doing evil do good, No.

Of Ourselves we can do nothing. but we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.

it is a learning and growing curve.

God is our Father, and we are his Children he loves deeply and gave His Son to us to be with us and in us to intercede for us, and to grow us and restore his image in us.

we cannot judge one another, Christ is interceding for all sin until he perfects our faith, "Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith, until we grow up into His Character.

"this is the victory that overcometh the world even our faith".

the Just shall Live by faith.

we are in a time where we are detaching from selfishness and attaching to Godliness. however painful it can be at times, we are assured if we continue will will be completely victorious in God's timing.

God is not willing for any to perish but that all should come to a knowledge of Truth and be saved, we can approach the throne of grace boldly to obtain grace for our time of need.

it is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. not fear.

[joeb]

The Bible says in Rom 12:21 that we have to overcome evil with good. You would agree with me that if one commits sin that person is overcome with evil, otherwise he would not have committed that sin in the first place. Therefore he who commits sin, is not yet an overcomer as far as that specific sin is concerned.

But the sin committed is not imputed against him because that sin had been forgiven on the cross (Col 2:13). However, that specific sin committed proves the person is not an overcomer yet. He must come to a point in his life where when faced with the opportunity to commit sin he refuses to commit the same sin again but instead does that which is good. If his response to the same situation is to do good again and again instead of committing the same sin all over again, he is then an overcomer.

Why was he able to overcome? Because he is attached to Christ Who is our strength. But why is a person overcome with evil? Because he refuses to overcome.

Have I made myself clear, brother?

Just so I can clarify exactly what you're saying.

You're saying that any sin committed is habitual and therefore shows rebellion against God? I'll give you an example straight out of the Bible. Peter refusing to eat with the Gentiles for fear of the Judaziers. The way I see your theology this makes Peter a habitual sinner, a man in rebellion against God. Is that an accurate representation of your thinking? Did Peter's sin happen because he refused to overcome?

I see only a couple of people in the Bible who have no sins recorded against them: Daniel and Enoch. By your theology David, the man after God's own heart, and Abraham, the friend of God, were both in rebellion against God as they sinned after their conversions. Is this also an accurate representation of your thinking? Were David's and Abraham's sins the result of their refusal to overcome?

In my understanding of what you're saying, I think you're more than a little narrow in how you see things in this regard. A "refusal to overcome", in my thinking, is clinging to known sin, refusing to give it up. There are other ways in which we can fall into sin. Self can rear its ugly head and we can fall into sin because we have taken our eyes off of Christ. We can become discouraged and fall into sin. The devil can tempt us into sinning. All of these things can happen and they are not a refusal to overcome. They are simply human weaknesses.

I do agree that overcoming sin is a must, but to say any lapse is a refusal to overcome is taking things into an area that is detrimental to point of becoming judgmental in the extreme. I think you need to find the balance that is found in the Bible and in the SOP on this subject.

[joeb]

Yes, they were never attached to Christ in any way because they are not 100% descended from Adam & Eve.

Now I'm really confused as to your thinking. How can any human being who lives on earth not be 100% descended from Adam and Eve? Where did they come from if they aren't descendants of Adam and Eve?

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

The Bible says in Rom 12:21 that we have to overcome evil with good. You would agree with me that if one commits sin that person is overcome with evil, otherwise he would not have committed that sin in the first place. Therefore he who commits sin, is not yet an overcomer as far as that specific sin is concerned.

But the sin committed is not imputed against him because that sin had been forgiven on the cross (Col 2:13). However, that specific sin committed proves the person is not an overcomer yet. He must come to a point in his life where when faced with the opportunity to commit sin he refuses to commit the same sin again but instead does that which is good. If his response to the same situation is to do good again and again instead of committing the same sin all over again, he is then an overcomer.

Why was he able to overcome? Because he is attached to Christ Who is our strength. But why is a person overcome with evil? Because he refuses to overcome.

Have I made myself clear, brother?

Just so I can clarify exactly what you're saying.

You're saying that any sin committed is habitual and therefore shows rebellion against God?

No, that is not what I mean. Sin committed once, like David's in the matter involving Uriah and his wife, and Peter's actuations in Gal 2:11-15 is not habitual. You know what 'habitual' means, don't you, brother?

[joeb]

No, that is not what I mean. Sin committed once, like David's in the matter involving Uriah and his wife, and Peter's actuations in Gal 2:11-15 is not habitual. You know what 'habitual' means, don't you, brother?

I asked because I was unsure of your meaning. You said in a previous post that to sin, without giving any qualifiers to that all-encompassing statement, was refusal to overcome sin.

I gave the possible qualifiers to your all-encompassing statement and then you ask me if I understand my own words? ***shakes head***

Maybe if you had explained your own position any misunderstanding might have been avoided.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Yes, they were never attached to Christ in any way because they are not 100% descended from Adam & Eve.

Now I'm really confused as to your thinking. How can any human being who lives on earth not be 100% descended from Adam and Eve? Where did they come from if they aren't descendants of Adam and Eve?

[debbym]

sorry Samie,

human women did not breed with evil angels, even in all the species varieties on earth there is no cross specie breeding.

The sons of God were men that worshiped the true God.

The daughters of men were women who were of families that did not worship the true God.

[Samie]

sorry Samie,

human women did not breed with evil angels, even in all the species varieties on earth there is no cross specie breeding.

The sons of God were men that worshiped the true God.

The daughters of men were women who were of families that did not worship the true God.

sorry, debby. I could not possibly exchange what Scriptures say with what you say.

I have shown how the term "sons of God" in the Old Testament referred to angels. Using Scriptures, you should have instead addressed the verses I used and show how those verses do not in anyway prove my position.