Bible and Self Defense

[Robert]

De 32:39 ¶ See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

We've been over this....You say God kills, I say He does not. That's why you have no problem in hating your enemies and blowing them away.

Jesus said "love your enemies". Blowing them away isn't love. Yes, if they want to kill you try to move on, if not you take a nap.

John 12:25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

What did Paul say? "To die is gain".

However, no one can touch you if God says "no", but that's if you are depending on Him. Go out on your own (self-dependent) - with guns strapped on your side - and you might prematurely hit the dirt.

Why are some so afraid to die?

Answer: No assurance of salvation!

[Robert]

When I heard the first broadcast on these innocent children being slaughtered I was almost physically sick. Then of course the hysteria over gun restrictions was close behind.

[Robert]

Look at Paul's death:

Paul was taken in a private manner to the place of execution. Few spectators were allowed to be present; for his persecutors, alarmed at the extent of his influence, feared that converts might be won to Christianity by the scenes of his death. But even the hardened soldiers who attended him listened to his words and with amazement saw him cheerful and even joyous in the prospect of death. To some who witnessed his martyrdom, his spirit of forgiveness toward his murderers and his unwavering confidence in Christ till the last, proved a savor of life unto life. More than one accepted the Saviour whom Paul preached, and erelong fearlessly sealed their faith with their blood. [Ellen White]

This makes my point! God can take something bad and bring good from it. It wasn't God's idea that Nero had Paul beheaded. God simply didn't give Paul a way out. What did Paul do? Practice his 2nd amendment right? No, he, like Christ, loved his enemies even unto death.

[Robert]

Little did I realize that it was their appointed time to die.

James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit"; 14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow.... 15 Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that."

2 Timothy 4:6-8 "I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing."

How did Paul know his time was about up? I don't know - maybe the Lord revealed it to Paul, but he knew his time had come.

Laugh it up if you wish, but it's Biblical.

[Gibs]

I can now see plainly what Roberts problem is, when God says "I kill" Robert says He didn't say that.

His enemies Robert is Satan and his angels and all men who join in his camp. He knew His own even before the foundation of the world Robert, remember their names are writen there before the foundation of the world, perfectly He knew the end from the beginning if you can but believe!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[bonnie]

I can now see plainly what Roberts problem is, when God says "I kill" Robert says He didn't say that.

Robert says a lot of things.When you have your own "selected messages" it is tough to be wrong.

When you can defend yourself or family with force,just not undo force and the next post says Jesus didn't fight back,therefore you can't either How can you be wrong?

If you are attacked and killed it was your appointed time But let's pass new laws so that less have to meet their appointed time.

Just can't go wrong with that type of reasoning Or can you?

[Robert]

He knew His own even before the foundation of the world Robert

[Robert]

If you are attacked and killed it was your appointed time.

Then God isn't in control? It's all up to who has the most guns?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

If you are attacked and killed it was your appointed time.

Then God isn't in control?

It's all up to who has the most guns?

By control I mean of your eternal destiny! The believer has handed His life over to God's control. When it's our time God will not interfere. What do I mean by "our time"? A time when God, in His love, allows us die. It might be a disease; it might be an accident; it might be someone shooting us....It might be just dying of old age.

All these evils come from our world. They do not come from God.

[Robert]

I can now see plainly what Roberts problem is, when God says "I kill" Robert says He didn't say that.

God said He killed Saul, but upon reading the Bible we find Saul committed suicide.

Since God is sovereign and since God has allowed Lucifer to develop his ways, God assumes the blame for what happens to us, that is, until the day of atonement. But that's another subject and I'm afraid your mind is closed to that truth because your faith is in your weapons and your works. Naturally you want a god after your mindset.

Well, I've got bad news: It isn't going to happen!

[Robert]

Jesus and his disciples were carrying two swords, at his direction

I found this on the WWW:

It's difficult to imagine Jesus telling his disciples to buy swords, considering that he would soon state,

". . . for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword." (Matthew 26:52, NASB).

"'Put your sword back in its place,' Jesus said to him, 'for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.'" (Matthew 26:52, NIV)

Also, it was late in the day, and Jesus and his disciples would soon leave for the Mount of Olives. Jesus had much to discuss with them before he would be taken prisoner, so there would be no time to go to the market, argue for the best value for their garments, then haggle over the price of swords.

It's interesting that Strong's Concordance doesn't even acknowledge the noun sword in Luke 22:36. Bishop Pearce believes the word has been inserted from what is said in verse 38, as it is evident Jesus never intended any resistance to his capture, nor to allow such a weapon to be used on the occasion.

But in Luke 22:38 Strong's Concordance acknowledges the Greek word [can't be displayed here]; (machaira, Strong's Concordance #G3162) , defining it as a knife, dirk or sword.

If we back up to verse 35 we hear Jesus reminding his disciples that he had sent them on a temporary journey with neither purse nor passports, nor shoes (see Matthew 10:5-10). When he asked if they lacked anything during the trip, they answered, "Nothing."

But when Jesus was no longer with them, their journey would not be temporary. They would need certain provisions, including a knife for preparation of food, cutting wood for fuel, and possibly to fend off robbers for which the area was noted. So, once Jesus' ordeal was over, they should make sure they each had a knife.

In Luke 22:38 the disciples said they had two knives, and Jesus said, "It is enough." By this he may have been saying that's all they would need, but Bible commentators Adam Clarke and John Gill believe he was saying, "We've talked about this enough." They are likely correct since, according to Luke's account, he then left for the Mount of Olives where his real agony would begin (Luke 22:39). Discussion about swords would be insignificant in comparison.

[Narcah]

Yes I do know people who have used guns in self defense. Go ask 5 cops and probably 3 have.

And that's not counting the private family stories...

[bonnie]

The "gospel" according to Robert has already stated that "That Robert being led by God can defend his family by force".Just not undue force.Odd then in other posts Robert points out that Jesus didn't resist and so we should not.Which is it?

I would take that to mean if you could subdue someone instead of shooting them or some other deadly action that would be the thing to do.

Most would find that reasonable and would do that. I would also take that to mean that if more drastic means were necessary to prevent Robert's family from being harmed he could do so as that would not be "undo force"

[bonnie]

Yes I do know people who have used guns in self defense. Go ask 5 cops and probably 3 have.

And that's not counting the private family stories...

There are people that are truly convicted of what they say God demand's of others.When they say they are a pacifist or that it is wrong to ever use any type of force to defend themselves and their families if being attacked and harmed by others.They will NOT.I don't agree with their beliefs but you can respect someone that is truly convicted of that and acts accordingly.

Then there are those that are biblical opportunists. Using only selected texts to prove their own personal piety and yet exempting themselves.

As in "you may not defend your family" by using any type of force and yet "I may use force being led by God"

Biblical opportunism is a common occurrence for some.A lot of words are thrown around for effect and then the true convictions show.When someone disagrees with you, a true understanding of the word "agape love" is used.As in "you are the son of satan"

The cries for more and more laws are constant,yet as you can read "No harm can come to you if it is not your appointed time"

Most of us understand that God does not cause the evil in this world,but I don't know how many believe that you should do nothing to defend yourself. Maybe it was the appointed time for these 20 "babies" to be slaughtered" If that is true no law could have prevented that.If it was not then these innocent babies could not have been killed by a mortal man. So who needs stricter laws?

[Robert]

Yes I do know people who have used guns in self defense.

[Q.E.D.]

I found this on the WWW:

"including a knife for preparation of food, cutting wood for fuel, and possibly to fend off robbers."

How does one "fend off a robber" with a knife?

Would you just show it to him and say "I have a knife."?

[Robert]

Maybe it was the appointed time for these 20 "babies" to be slaughtered"

"Appointed time"?

Does God know when you are going to die? Yes, He is omniscient.

All that I am saying is you aren't going anywhere, as a believer, unless God allows it.

These children were probably not old enough to understand spiritual things. Does that mean too bad for them? Not in my understanding. I believe that all who die before they are mature enough to understand spiritual matters will be in heaven.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I found this on the WWW:

"including a knife for preparation of food, cutting wood for fuel, and possibly to fend off robbers."

How does one "fend off a robber" with a knife?

Would you just show it to him and say "I have a knife."?

Your question is with the author. If we are to follow Christ's example it is one of non-violence. That's all am saying....

[Robert]

Maybe it was the appointed time for these 20 "babies" to be slaughtered"

Bonnie, why didn't God intervene?

But then that leads into why did God create Lucifer knowing that he would rebel and create this mess we are in?

[bonnie]

"Appointed time"?

Does God know when you are going to die? Yes, He is omniscient.

All that I am saying is you aren't going anywhere, as a believer, unless God allows it.

[bonnie]

Your question is with the author. If we are to follow Christ's example it is one of non-violence. That's all am saying....

Nope the real question is for you? Does Christ's example apply to you? Non-violence or being led by God to defend your family using force,just not undo force. Don't blow someone's head of if less drastic and permanent means are possible.

Which is it for you Robert?

[bonnie]

How does one "fend off a robber" with a knife?

Would you just show it to him and say "I have a knife."?

You could tell them you will call the governing authorities

or you can use force,just not more force than is necessary.

Simple wrap upside the head instead of stabbing someone maybe,if that would take care of it

[Robert]

Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment." The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied. (Luke 22:35-38, NIV)

Here's my take:

If you look at the timeline, Christ was about to be taken by force and publicly crucified.

His disciples, who were only babes in Christ, were still too a large degree controlled by their natures. Hence Christ allowed them to be armed so as to learn "for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword." (Matthew 26:52, NASB).

There's a similarity here with the law. At Sinai God gave the law, but not as a means of salvation. He did it to open the eyes of the Jews to the fact that "there's none righteous, no, not even one".

You see God knew the Jews couldn't keep the law, but He gave it to them anyway. The question is why?

Because they did not know their own hearts. He did it to reveal the impossibility of mankind doing anything to merit salvation. See Galatians chapter 3.

Likewise Christ allowed the mostly "unconverted" (not unsaved) disciples to have weapons to open their eyes, through their own experience, that "all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword".

[Robert]

You could tell them you will call the governing authorities or you can use force,....

Bonnie, Bonnie, Bonnie. Too much TV for you. They have guns too and are very capable of blowing you away. Many hardened criminals live by the gun. That's all they know and they can use it much better than you.

[Robert]

Likewise Christ allowed the mostly "unconverted" (not unsaved) disciples to have weapons to open their eyes, through their own experience, that "all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword".

If a armed criminal is in your house he will defiantly shoot at you if you shoot at him. If you are unarmed he might murder you anyway, or he might not. But with a gun it is almost certain that he will return fire. In other words the threat of violence towards the thief might get you killed.....