Bible and Self Defense

[bonnie]

Bonnie, Bonnie, Bonnie. Too much TV for you. They have guns too and are very capable of blowing you away. Many hardened criminals live by the gun. That's all they know and they can use it much better than you.

Really? I would guess that in the last year I may have watched 20 hours of TV and that is on the high side. "Have guns to"?? And I have guns for self defense?You do a terrible job trying to use your "divine wisdom".

But never fear,regardless if I did choose to have a gun for self defense or use any other means,"I,like you,being led by God would never use undue force".Just what was sufficient

[Robert]

...why on earth do you care that they died? They will be in heaven so don't sweat it.

Well, no one wants a child to die, but ultimately their future is secured because of Jesus Christ.

If those parents want to see their children I suggest that they accept Christ if they haven't already. That's reality. I hope they turn to Christ if they haven't....

[Robert]

I'll keep my God, my freedom, my gun and my money. You can keep "THE CHANGE".'

You have no control....That's a delusion. Your freedom doesn't come by your gun. That's more nonsense. Your money could be gone tomorrow.

Your freedom comes by placing your faith in Christ.

[bonnie]

If a armed criminal is in your house he will defiantly shoot at you if you shoot at him. If you are unarmed he might murder you anyway, or he might not. But with a gun it is almost certain that he will return fire. In other words the threat of violence towards the thief might get you killed.....

If I chose to have a gun for self defense I would make sure I knew how to use it.

My preferred method of self defense was a 120 lb Rott.I lived five miles out in the country and my husband spent a total of six months working out of state.If a armed criminal were in my house he would have made "lunch" for my dog.

Great thing about Rotts,they don't make noise.All of a sudden they will be in the face.Giving her the go-ahead the criminal with a gun would not have had a face.

Many people do not live where they can have that type of protection.They are not anxiously waiting to shoot someone. Those I know have had intensive training in the use of their firearm.

As for your theory,certainly didn't hold true here. There was a series of breakins and robberies.Several houses had some really nasty looking warning signs about the intent of the owners should someone consider breaking in. Not one with the warning signs was bothered.Wonder why that was.

[bonnie]

In the end,what you claim to believe I or others should or should not do is meaningless.You do not apply it to yourself

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Likewise Christ allowed the mostly "unconverted" (not unsaved) disciples to have weapons to open their eyes, through their own experience, that "all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword".

If a armed criminal is in your house he will defiantly shoot at you if you shoot at him. If you are unarmed he might murder you anyway, or he might not. But with a gun it is almost certain that he will return fire. In other words the threat of violence towards the thief might get you killed.....

"When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: but when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils" (Luke 11, 21-22).

If you trust your armour (your weapons) they will let you down. Someone will get you....Don't be delusional! The guy with the element of surprise (that would be the thief/murderer) has the edge.

[Robert]

You do not apply it to yourself

I have no weapons...I can't beat down an opponent with the martial arts I use to do because I have a bad back. If God allows I guess I'll be pushing up daises. I'm not in control.

[Q.E.D.]

The guy with the element of surprise (that would be the thief/murderer) has the edge.

Well trained martial artists will disagree with you on that point.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The guy with the element of surprise (that would be the thief/murderer) has the edge.

Well trained martial artists will disagree with you on that point.

You are very mistaken. Back to reality....

[bonnie]

You have no control....That's a delusion. Your freedom doesn't come by your gun. That's more nonsense. Your money could be gone tomorrow.

Your freedom comes by placing your faith in Christ.

I know that you have no control,but that is your problem.Why don't you try a little honesty when you reply. I never have claimed "my freedom came from my gun"

My money certainly could be gone tomorrow,but of course I have never said other wise.

That is simply your way to deflect and to not address your total hypocrisy on this topic.

Jesus didn't fight back.you claim Jesus as your example.Robert in being led by God would fight back.Two totally different statements.One for everyone else and special one for Robert.

Ponder for a bit what Biblical opportunism means.

Now go ahead and keep deflecting,it is obvious,but you keep hoping no one will notice

[Robert]

Jesus didn't fight back.

[Q.E.D.]

Well trained martial artists will disagree with you on that point.

[Robert]

Apparently you have but little real experience in martial arts as far as surprise attacks in real life street fights.

You are a black belt....You are walking down the street. I'm hiding behind a bush. You walk by and I shoot you. End of story. You've been watching too many movies....

Martial arts has its limits. During the opium wars the Chinese and their martial arts when up against British guns. Guess who lost?

[bonnie]

No...Robert being led by his nature would fight back....[/quote

Nope,Robert said...Being led by God he would defend his wife

but would not use "undue force"

Go back and look

[You can't read my motive, so why try?

Your motives are very easy to read. Jesus didn't fight back,so no one else but Robert can.

But let's concede you are right. We should not and most rational people are not anxious to take a life of another human being even if justified. They will protect themselves and their families but not use undue force.

[bonnie]

Robert said....

Quote:

..Remember this, if God doesn’t want you to die nobody can touch you. It He wants you to die, thank Him, for all your worries will be over. You will go to sleep until He comes. Hence, we can say with Paul, “For me to live is Christ and to die is gain.” (Phil. 1:21)

God must have wanted those 20 children dead,otherwise the shooter could not have touched them.So what is your beef and why would you want more laws

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Robert

If my human nature had its way I would wipe out anyone trying to hurt my wife. If led by God I would try to protect her without undue violence. God is my shield and my protector, not a 44-mag.

See we agree. Jesus did not try to protect himself,but you being led by God would.Of course using the rational approach and not using "undue violence"

Being led by God and believing this "Remember this, if God doesn’t want you to die nobody can touch you"

why on earth would you even try to protect your wife.If God wants her dead she is dead.If not,not to worry,she can't be harmed as you do nothing.

Biblical opportunism.It is interesting to watch repeated posts that do just that

[Q.E.D.]

You are a black belt....You are walking down the street. I'm hiding behind a bush. You walk by and I shoot you. End of story.

[Q.E.D.]

why on earth would you even try to protect your wife.If God wants her dead she is dead.If not,not to worry,she can't be harmed as you do nothing.

[Robert]

Quote:

Do you remember now? "They will let you down."

Yes, in the illustration your martial arts let you down because the bad guy blew you away. Now your family is coming after the bad guy until he is in jail or pushing up daises. Everybody loses.

[Robert]

God must have wanted those 20 children dead, otherwise the shooter could not have touched them.

I wouldn't say that He wanted them to die, but neither did He intervene. In fact Romans 5:12 says, "just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men". Death is a given. It's the result of sin. People are dying daily. Some by violence, others by disease and some by old age. However, God is in control of believers life. The believer has allowed God to have control of his/her destiny.

Were these kids believers? Probably not at that young age. And what about the parents? Again, we don't know. For some reason God didn't intervene. Was it because of unbelief? I don't know. No one knows, but if you are a believer God knows best when to let you go to sleep.

[Robert]

See we agree. Jesus did not try to protect himself,but you being led by God would. Of course using the rational approach and not using "undue violence"

[Narcah]

"Faith without works is dead..." Just quoting. :)

[Robert]

Bonnie,

Really, there's no point going on. You feel comforted by having a gun or two around. I do not.

Are you going to miss out on heaven because you are failing to live Christ's life?

No, that's legalism. If you must live Christ's life in every detail then no one will make it.

At this point in my life I chose not to have a gun. That might change (I might be wrong), or you might change your view. God takes us where we are at and no one knows it all.

If you can have peace with God and a clear conscience, your guns are your business.

We fight way too much. I get on your nerves and you mine. I'd rather seek peace with you....

[bonnie]

Bonnie,

Really, there's no point going on. You feel comforted by having a gun or two around. I do not.

[bonnie]

I think it is three times now that you have taken the signature at the bottom of the page and made a dishonest issue out of it.Maybe under the "umbrella of grace" you don't think a little stretch or comments that put something in a unintended light is dishonest,but personally I do.

You took a slogan that began as a response to a president's ridicule of those that disagree with him and made it into something else.

Under "your umbrella of grace" you allow yourself "being led by God" to resist those trying to harm your family.For others, they obviously are less than Christian. To intervene if possible would have to be seen as trying to circumvent God's plans for the one in danger.

No...Robert being led by his nature would fight back.... and then you said....

Nope,Robert said...Being led by God he would defend his wife

but would not use "undue force"

Can't lose on this can you?

I would still like a honest direct answer if you can find one.

If you believe this to be true in this context,explain why you would defend your wife in any manner

..Remember this, if God doesn’t want you to die nobody can touch you.

Your intervention is pointless and trying to take over God's role.Your wife simply could not be harmed if God did not want her to die

If He wants her to die, thank Him, for all her worries will be over

Instead of Being led by God and he would defend his wife but would not use "undue force",you should be expected to tell your wife goodbye and thank God for allowing this to happen.

How much does this "belief" of yours cover? Is it just in the event of being attacked and using a gun for self defense if possible and necessary?Or does it include intervention in attempted suicides? Many people have been stopped,helped and gone on to lead a different type of life.Just how wrong is that level of unbelief?

Remember this, if God doesn’t want you to die nobody can touch you. If it is not their appointed time they will not succeed so leave them be.

If it is their appointed time,leave them be and thank God their worries are over

If you have a serious medical condition develop,why would you bother with a DR?

A disease cannot harm you if God doesn’t want you to die it can't touch you.

Or, If He wants you to die, thank Him, for all your worries will be over.

I became critically ill a few years ago out of the blue.

I was very relieved to go to the hospital and be cared for,but what you claim to believe it was totally unnecessary and probably a very serious lack of faith.As you believe a Dr was unnecessary if God did not want me to die and there wasn't any reason for my husband to take me to the hospital.If God wanted me to die that day it wouldn't have mattered what the Dr's did.

[Robert]

This is being discussed under the title:

"If it is the Lord's will" - what does this mean?