Robert Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Yes, human nature, not sinful nature Robert. There's only one kind of human nature - sinful. Where have you been? Quote
Twilight II Posted January 6, 2013 Author Posted January 6, 2013 q: Who did Jesus come to save? a: sinners q: From what? a: The curse of the law (2nd death) q: What does the law demand of the sinner? a: the 2nd death q: How did Christ save us from the law without doing away with its just demand? a: By taking sinners into himself. Thus He rewrote our history from one of condemnation to justification of life. Again you have asserted your final conclusion Robert. You have provided no basis for anyone to accept that Christ was born with a sinful nature. Quote
Twilight II Posted January 6, 2013 Author Posted January 6, 2013 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Yes, human nature, not sinful nature Robert. There's only one kind of human nature - sinful. Where have you been? What nature did Adam have? Quote
Twilight II Posted January 6, 2013 Author Posted January 6, 2013 Made under the law. AT Jones Sorry Robert, but I want you to show your own foundational presuppositional starting point, I am not discussing this with AT Jones. :-) Quote
Robert Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 What nature did Adam have? Better question: Who did Christ come to save? Adam before or after the fall? Answer: After! He came to save the fallen, children of Adam. We are simply the multiplication of Adam's fallen life, indwelt with sin. Christ, in order to redeem Adam's fallen children, assumed our fallen humanity. The only humanity I know of is our fallen humanity indwelt by iniquity. Quote
Robert Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 Sorry Robert, but I want you to show your own foundational presuppositional.... Okay.... Quote
Robert Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did (How?) by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and on account of sin: He condemned sin (where?) in the flesh ... You see because of our human nature we can't, of ourselves, keep the spirituality of God's law. The solution? God sent Christ, in the likeness of sinful flesh, and in so doing He condemned "sin in the flesh". Other translations say "sin in sinful man". Quote
Robert Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 Quote: Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did (How?) by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and on account of sin: He condemned sin (where?) in the flesh ... “That the intention being the use of ‘likeness’ here was to take account of the fact that the Son of God was not in being sent by His Father changed into a man, but rather assumed human nature while still remaining Himself.” [international Critical Commentary, the 1982 edition, by Cranfield] That is, Divinity did not become humanity, Divinity took unto Itself humanity, but Christ was still God. “He took upon his sinless divine nature our sinful nature.” (MM 181) Quote
Robert Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 “That the intention being the use of ‘likeness’ here was to take account of the fact that the Son of God was not in being sent by His Father changed into a man, but rather assumed human nature while still remaining Himself.” [international Critical Commentary, the 1982 edition, by Cranfield] Cranfield agrees with Ellen White: Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person—the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. [Letter 280, 1904 in Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p. 1113.] Quote
Robert Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 “He took upon his sinless divine nature our sinful nature.” (MM 181) Now, if you are a SDA, then you believe that Ellen White had insight. That's not to excuse Bible study, but the point is Ellen White said that Christ, as God, took upon Himself "our sinful nature"! That's very plain. Do you disagree with Ellen White? Quote
Twilight II Posted January 7, 2013 Author Posted January 7, 2013 Hi Robert :-) Again, "likeness of sinful flesh" does not infer that Jesus had sinful flesh. The word likeness removes this as a possible foundational text to start from. Remember, I am asking you to show your foundational assumption from the Bible. Pointing to Ellen White to prove your foundational assumption is not what I am asking you to do. :-) Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted January 7, 2013 Moderators Posted January 7, 2013 q: Who did Jesus come to save? a: sinners q: From what? a: The curse of the law (2nd death) q: What does the law demand of the sinner? a: the 2nd death q: How did Christ save us from the law without doing away with its just demand? a: By taking sinners into himself. Thus He rewrote our history from one of condemnation to justification of life. Christ did not do away the just demands of the law and yet you claim He released us from obedience to it. That is an oxymoron, blatantly antinomian! Quote
Just* Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 Galatians 4:4 ... God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law Romans 1:3 which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree... Galatians 3:13 ... being made a curse for us Romans 8:3 ...condemned sin in the flesh: Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren Hebrews 4:15 ... was in all points tempted like as we are James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Quote
Twilight II Posted January 7, 2013 Author Posted January 7, 2013 Galatians 4:4 ... God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law Romans 1:3 which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree... Galatians 3:13 ... being made a curse for us Romans 8:3 ...condemned sin in the flesh: Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren Hebrews 4:15 ... was in all points tempted like as we are James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. What is the text you go to when you present your argument, what is your foundational thought? Quote
Robert Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 Christ did not do away the just demands of the law and yet you claim He released us from obedience to it. That is an oxymoron, blatantly antinomian! No, Gerry, after all these years you still do not understand the gospel. It's amazing! Christ didn't do away with the law, He did away with you! You died in the humanity of Christ. Hence you have been delivered from under the law. If you haven't then you must die as an individual. Are you living Christ's life, which answered the law? If not, you must die. Quote
Robert Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 God remained Himself...He never became us. He assumed that which was not His. If not, then you have become the Holy Spirit, God, because He is dwelling in you. Quote
Gibs Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 The Father was in Him, Jesus and the same power is ours, Christ in you the hope of Glory! Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: He came in the body of a man. EGW, "When, instead of coming in the pomp and splendor of the mighty kings of the earth, Christ came as a humble man, possessing human nature, how great was their chagrin and disappointment! Surely this was not the man who would deliver them. They would not own Him as their King. He came not among the most honorable, or to receive homage as kings of the earth receive homage from their subjects. He came among the poor and the needy. He was found among the oppressed. He relieved the wants of the destitute and stood by the side of the most humble. Thinking that this man could not be the Messiah for whom they looked, they refused to acknowledge Him." {10MR 152.3} The Father in Him was His power, strength and stay, and now Christ in you, you and I and all who will can have Him dwelling within and have His power! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Twilight II Posted January 8, 2013 Author Posted January 8, 2013 Hey folks, you are missing the point of the thread... Quote
Gibs Posted January 8, 2013 Posted January 8, 2013 The nature of Christ, the title of this thread, I just posted to all in my post above, He took our nature, read again the quote of EGW I posted above. If we don't understand it aright, we are not standing on the foundation He laid. Yes He came from the seed of David, He took on Himself our fallen nature, our sinful nature, but don't get me wrong. He did not have sinful flesh as He entered not into sin. His mother was Mary, she was not "immaculate", so He was born as any man since the fall. Ro 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; " Christ did not make-believe take human nature; He did verily take it. He did in reality possess human nature. "As the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same." He was the son of Mary; He was of the seed of David according to human descent. He is declared to be a man, even the Man Christ Jesus. "This man," writes Paul, "was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honor than the house." {LHU 74.4} "Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those He wished to save. In Him was no guile or sinfulness; He was ever pure and undefiled; yet He took upon Him our sinful nature. Clothing His divinity with humanity, that He might associate with fallen humanity, He sought to regain for man that which, by disobedience, Adam had lost for himself and for the world. In His own character He displayed to the world the character of God.--The Review and Herald, Dec. 15, 1896. {7ABC 452.6} Our foundation must of necessity know that He was really one of us and overcame from where we must, and He showed us it could be done. This is the crux of the matter! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ
Robert Posted January 8, 2013 Posted January 8, 2013 Nowhere does Scripture say that Christ took on human nature whether 'fallen nature' or 'unfallen nature'. He took your humanity into Himself. Your humanity is polluted with iniquity (your bent to self) and therefore since "You died" (Rom 7:4) in Him He assumed your nature too! Quote
Just* Posted January 8, 2013 Posted January 8, 2013 Originally Posted By: Just* Galatians 4:4 ... God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law Romans 1:3 which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree... Galatians 3:13 ... being made a curse for us Romans 8:3 ...condemned sin in the flesh: Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren Hebrews 4:15 ... was in all points tempted like as we are James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. What is the text you go to when you present your argument, what is your foundational thought? These texts show that Christ took upon Himself man’s nature, and that as a consequence He was subject to death. Christ was born under the condemnation of the law, and that this was necessarily incident to the fact that He was born of a woman. As in His death, so in His life, our sins were counted as His. He could be all His life, even from His birth, under the condemnation of the law. It was not on His own account, but on ours. Quote
Twilight II Posted January 8, 2013 Author Posted January 8, 2013 The nature of Christ, the title of this thread, I just posted to all in my post above, He took our nature, read again the quote of EGW I posted above. If we don't understand it aright, we are not standing on the foundation He laid. Yes He came from the seed of David, He took on Himself our fallen nature, our sinful nature, but don't get me wrong. He did not have sinful flesh as He entered not into sin. His mother was Mary, she was not "immaculate", so He was born as any man since the fall. Ro 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; " Christ did not make-believe take human nature; He did verily take it. He did in reality possess human nature. "As the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same." He was the son of Mary; He was of the seed of David according to human descent. He is declared to be a man, even the Man Christ Jesus. "This man," writes Paul, "was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honor than the house." {LHU 74.4} "Clad in the vestments of humanity, the Son of God came down to the level of those He wished to save. In Him was no guile or sinfulness; He was ever pure and undefiled; yet He took upon Him our sinful nature. Clothing His divinity with humanity, that He might associate with fallen humanity, He sought to regain for man that which, by disobedience, Adam had lost for himself and for the world. In His own character He displayed to the world the character of God.--The Review and Herald, Dec. 15, 1896. {7ABC 452.6} Our foundation must of necessity know that He was really one of us and overcame from where we must, and He showed us it could be done. This is the crux of the matter! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Please re-read the opening post. :-) This is asking us to examine our foundational assumptional text we use to validate our position. If in fact we even use one... Quote
Twilight II Posted January 8, 2013 Author Posted January 8, 2013 Everyone... This discussion is so that you can examine what is your foundational text. What is your starting point when you reason this out. What single statement do you use as a foundation to build a house on? Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted January 8, 2013 Moderators Posted January 8, 2013 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Christ did not do away the just demands of the law and yet you claim He released us from obedience to it. That is an oxymoron, blatantly antinomian! No, Gerry, after all these years you still do not understand the gospel. It's amazing! Christ didn't do away with the law, He did away with you! You died in the humanity of Christ. Hence you have been delivered from under the law. If you haven't then you must die as an individual. Are you living Christ's life, which answered the law? If not, you must die. ESV | ‎1 Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, Quote
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