The Nature Of Christ - our foundations.

[joeb]

Hi Gibs,

Was it an infinite humiliation for Christ to take our flesh and blood, even as Adam before his fall, let alone after the cumulative affect of thousands of years of the consequences of sin? Yes. That is one reading of your quotes. It is a reading that fits exactly with the quotes I've given. Your reading of your quotes are not in harmony with what she said about strenuously guarding against anyone believing that we think Christ was a man with passions like ours(our fallen spiritual nature).

Bob Ryan has the right idea. We need to define what Ellen White means by "fallen nature". The only way to do that is to read everything she says on the subject and see how they come to a harmonious agreement. Taking only part of her statements as the foundation for what we believe is a sure way to come to a false conclusion.

Here's a clear statement from Ellen White about Christ's human nature.

Quote:

In the Likeness of Sinful Flesh—Christ, the second Adam, came in the likeness of sinful flesh. In man’s behalf, he became subject to sorrow, to weariness, to hunger, and to thirst. He was subject to temptation, but he yielded not to sin. No taint of sin was upon Him. He declared, “I have kept my Father’s commandments [in My earthly life]” (John 15:10). He had infinite power only because he was perfectly obedient to his Father’s will. The second Adam stood the test of trial and temptation that he might become the Owner of all humanity.—Manuscript 99, 1903. {3SM 141.5}

Notice what she says Christ became subject to: sorrow, weariness, hunger, and thirst. She does not say He became subject to our passions. She explicitly says He wasn't elsewhere.

Adam gave dominion of the word to Satan when he fell. The second Adam stood strong where the first one failed and won us back. That does not require a fallen spiritual nature. In fact, it requires the opposite to retrace Adam's steps.

Quote:

Christ a Free Moral Agent—The second Adam was a free moral agent, held responsible for His conduct. Surrounded by intensely subtle and misleading influences, He was much less favorably situated than was the first Adam to lead a sinless life. Yet in the midst of sinners He resisted every temptation to sin, and maintained His innocency. He was ever sinless (The Southern Work, September 29, 1903). {6BC 1074.6}

Man on Vantage Ground With God—As related to the first Adam, men receive from him nothing but guilt and the sentence of death. But Christ steps in and passes over the ground where Adam fell, enduring every test in man’s behalf. He redeems Adam’s disgraceful failure and fall by coming forth from the trial untarnished. This places man on vantage ground with God. It places him where, through accepting Christ as his Saviour, he becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Thus he becomes connected with God and Christ (Letter 68, 1899). {6BC 1074.7}

Notice that "Christ steps in and passes over the ground where Adam fell". What does that mean to you? Can He pass over the same ground Adam did if He starts at Adams nature post-fall? I don't think so.

[Gerr]

Notice that "Christ steps in and passes over the ground where Adam fell". What does that mean to you? Can He pass over the same ground Adam did if He starts at Adams nature post-fall? I don't think so.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

If you mean the law, then we are a bunch of liars. Are you keeping the spirit of the law as did Christ? Somewhere earlier you said you weren't. So, do you really want to remain under law?

If you are right that nobody is keeping the law then, yes, we are all liars, and the Apostle John who wrote about those "who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" was lying too.

[Robert]

Yes, as a fallen human being, my obedience will ALWAYS fall short of Christ's perfection.

[Robert]

If you are right that nobody is keeping the law then, yes, we are all liars, and the Apostle John who wrote about those "who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" was lying too.

This refers to the remnant, those who go through the time of Jacob's trouble. You and I are not part of that group.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Yes, as a fallen human being, my obedience will ALWAYS fall short of Christ's perfection.

Then you can not be under law or you've had it.

Quote:

BUT - "When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit.

That's Roman Catholic!

No, that is NOT Roman Catholic, that is the Good News. The law cannot see my obedience that falls short because it sees Jesus as my SUBSTITUTE whose obedience ALWAYS meets the full requirement of the law.

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," Rom 8:1. So how is this different from what you are advocating? As I understand your view, "in Christ" I can continue to steal, fornicate, and murder, yet the law cannot touch me. As I understand what the Bible teaches, to be "in Christ" is to "follow in His steps," (1 Pet 2:21), not to give in to the desires of the flesh but to crucify its "passions and desires" (Gal 5:24), walking by the Spirit, (Gal 5:16), abiding in Christ (Jn 15:5). Those abiding in Christ can no longer go on practicing sin, (1 Jn 3:6-9).

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If you are right that nobody is keeping the law then, yes, we are all liars, and the Apostle John who wrote about those "who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" was lying too.

No Gerry, the Apostle John wrote about those "who ..." IN CHRIST "... keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus".

Also, read "even", emphasising WHICH "commandments" and what they are meant to be: "... who keep the commandments of God __even__ the faith of Jesus" ['even' from the Greek 'kai']

Here are the two references in Revelation. Notice that John does not qualify them with "in Christ." However, it is true that when the law looks at the obedience of the believer, it sees not our imperfect obedience, but the perfect obedience of our Substitute.

ESV | ‎Re 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

KJV 1900 | ‎Re 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

kai - 2532. καί kaí; copulative conj. And, also. "The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament" by Spiros Zodhiates.

89.92 καίa: a marker of coordinate relations—‘and.’

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (788). New York: United Bible Societies.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If you are right that nobody is keeping the law then, yes, we are all liars, and the Apostle John who wrote about those "who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" was lying too.

This refers to the remnant, those who go through the time of Jacob's trouble. You and I are not part of that group.

And why can't present believers be not part of that group? Is God a respecter of persons that He gives grace to that future remnant and not to the remnant of present?

[Robert]

;Jn 1:14 "And the Word became flesh". None of that "assume" business!!!

Ellen White: "He assumed human nature, with its infirmities, its liabilities, its temptations. {Ms 58, 1890} ..."

[Robert]

No, that is NOT Roman Catholic...The law cannot see my obedience that falls short because it sees Jesus as my SUBSTITUTE whose obedience ALWAYS meets the full requirement of the law.

But that's not what Ellen White stated!

"Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit."

That's I plus Christ instead of not I, but Christ.

You see the law doesn't hand out credit for good behavior. So it's all of Christ or nothing. Otherwise you'll have something to glory in when you get to heaven. You can say, "I did my best (35%) and Jesus made up the rest (65%)"

[Robert]

And why can't present believers be not part of that group?

Because "now" the anti-christ isn't persecuting God's people. That's future.....

Paul writes of it here:

2 Thess 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God

[joeb]

I have a couple more quotes from Ellen White that show her position on the spiritual nature of Christ. These come from the ebook volume 7A p.446 of the SDA BC's which you can download from the White Estate website. The paging may or may not be compatible with the hardcover books. I simply don't know one way or the other.

These quotes are so clear that I don't know how anyone can mistake them to mean anything other than that Christ took Adam's spiritual nature before his fall. For me it makes very plain, unmistakably plain, that any attempt to attribute to Ellen White the idea that she thought Christ took Adam's spiritual nature after his fall is either a genuine mistake on someone's part or a deliberate attempt to attribute to her something she did not believe.

Quote:

Christ came to the earth, taking humanity, and standing as man’s representative,

to show in the controversy with Satan that man, as God created him, connected with

the Father and the Son, could obey every divine requirement.—The Signs of the Times,

June 9, 1898.

Christ is called the second Adam. In purity and holiness, connected with God and

beloved by God, He began where the first Adam began. Willingly He passed over the ground where Adam fell, and redeemed Adam’s failure.—The Youth’s Instructor, June

2, 1898.

In the fullness of time He was to be revealed in human form. He was to take His

position at the head of humanity by taking the nature but not the sinfulness of man. In heaven was heard the voice, “The Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.”—The Signs of the Times, May 29,

1901.

When Christ bowed His head and died, He bore the pillars of Satan’s kingdom with

Him to the earth. He vanquished Satan in the same nature over which in Eden Satan obtained the victory. The enemy was overcome by Christ in His human nature. The power of the Saviour’s Godhead was hidden. He overcame in human nature, relying upon God for power.—The Youth’s Instructor, April 25, 1901.