The Nature Of Christ - our foundations.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Robert

“He took upon his sinless divine nature our sinful nature.” (MM 181)

Now, if you are a SDA, then you believe that Ellen White had insight. That's not to excuse Bible study, but the point is Ellen White said that Christ, as God, took upon Himself "our sinful nature"!

That's very plain. Do you disagree with Ellen White?

In case you are intimating that when He took upon Himself "our sinful nature" you mean that He was born with an inclination or propensity to sin, here is what she said:

"Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin, his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden." {13MR 18.1}

[joeb]

Everyone...

This discussion is so that you can examine what is your foundational text.

What is your starting point when you reason this out.

What single statement do you use as a foundation to build a house on?

I think your proposition, that we take a single statement as a foundation upon which to build our theology, is dangerous. It is in doing this type of thing that the Calvinists reach such extremes that they say God is responsible for sin and causes those who reject Christ to reject Him.

The only way a solid understanding of any Bibilical issue can be reached is to study everything the Bible says on a subject and from that to draw our conclusion. Otherwise we end up ignoring any texts that contradict our presuppositions, as is seen to happen on this site on a regular basis.

[Ted Oplinger]

For all the Scriptures quoted...I do think that this series sums up the point well:

Romans 5:6-18, with verse 18 the encapsulating argument by Paul

2 Corinthians 5:14

Galatians 2:20

Hebrews 2:11-18

Hebrews 4:15

The universal language in these texts are quite clear - Christ was made completely like unto ourselves, was tempted in all points even as we are, won the victory in a manner that took all of humanity into Himself, then paid the ransom for humanity by dying the death in our humanity, even as He was completely obedient in every point.

1 John contains this verse: 1 John 4:2. The word for "flesh" there is the same exact word for "flesh" found in Romans 8:5-8, found so at enmity with God. To deny Christ came in such a humanity that did not deal with our flesh as we must, is not from God (vs 3), is antichrist, and thus denies the Gospel. Ouch!

What is often left out of debates of this nature is that our strongest temptations do not come from the outside. They come from the inside and proceed out (as Christ definitively declares in Matthew 12:35, Matthew 15:10, and Mark 7:14-23).

If Christ was "tempted in all points as we, yet was without sin" as Hebrews 4:15 states, then He had to necessarily deal with these points of humanity as we must. He experienced deeply the war the flesh makes against the mind. Otherwise, the Scripture makes a false claim - and I know this is not the case.

Christ's struggle in the garden of Gethsemane (Matthew 26:39, Mark 14:36, Luke 22:42) indicates His human will was quite at contradiction with the Father's will. The portrait here is that Christ, in His humanity, also had to decide whether to follow His will, or the Father's. "Not My will, but Thine" encapsulates a struggle of wills, not a mere looking for an alternative path for Man's redemption, as is oft postulated.

After the garden struggle was over, the Gospel record indicates that Christ still had this choice - reflected in the language of John 18:11.

However, to say, "No!" to the cross at this point would have meant breaking up the unity He had with the Father, and not the "graceful backing out" of the plan of man's salvation.

Christ's human nature was such that He suffered all the various types of temptation we do, surrender a will (like we do), and seek to preserve the attachment to God He forges (as we do). I will also tender the thought that this life on earth He walked was fraught with the possibility of failure...just as sinners do fail in realizing the gift of God.

So...how did He win, if He wasn't a superman visiting us with no chance at losing because, after all, He was the Son of God?

John 14:10, 11 sums up a number of statement Christ made in that Gospel concerning how that victory was won, and confirmed again in Paul's declaration in Philippians 2:3-8.

God says this method is precisely how WE are to win that same victory:

John 14:12 (imagine this: Christ saying that at least one future sinner would repeat Christ’s victory and be found doing greater works -to the testament of God's power over the flesh - than seen in Christ...)

and we have the counsel of Philippians 2:12, 13.

Whatever Christ's human nature was, it allowed Him to fully taste of our experience as sinners here on earth, with the opportunity for making the wrong choice, while fully allowing the Father to so indwell Him (Colossians 2:9) that the Father's character (the image of which we were originally created in) was on full display.

To repeat this important point of the Gospel:

Whatever that humanity was, it allowed in Christ to realize the image of God to be completely and fully restored in a Man experiencing the issues of man's sin to the fullest. It also allows the Father and the Son to appeal to us to win the same victory by the same means Christ did. This appeal is possible because the sin issue is in reality a dead issue, as the death of Christ on the cross and resurrection into life as our new Adam testifies to.

I now add these texts into the mix...

Colossians 2:2

1 Timothy 3:16

Revelation 10:7

The mystery of the Gospel is a mystery, indeed...but it will be finished!

Why am I confident of that?

Philippians 1:6

Hebrews 12:1, 2

Jude 24, 25

and finally,

Galatians 2:20, 21

Blessings!

[Gibs]

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Everyone...

This discussion is so that you can examine what is your foundational text.

What is your starting point when you reason this out.

What single statement do you use as a foundation to build a house on?

I think your proposition, that we take a single statement as a foundation upon which to build our theology, is dangerous. It is in doing this type of thing that the Calvinists reach such extremes that they say God is responsible for sin and causes those who reject Christ to reject Him.

The only way a solid understanding of any Bibilical issue can be reached is to study everything the Bible says on a subject and from that to draw our conclusion. Otherwise we end up ignoring any texts that contradict our presuppositions, as is seen to happen on this site on a regular basis.

It is dangerous indeed if you cannot start from any other position logically, but assume that position.

And that is what happens.

And what I am trying to show here.

People take a pre-supposition and defend that pre-supposition to the death.

They are not thinking logically.

We should be able to take ANY position and reason from it until it breaks down.

Only then can we protect ourselves from predujicial pre-suppositions.

[skyblue888]

For all the Scriptures quoted...I do think that this series sums up the point well:

Romans 5:6-18, with verse 18 the encapsulating argument by Paul

2 Corinthians 5:14

Galatians 2:20

Hebrews 2:11-18

Hebrews 4:15

The universal language in these texts are quite clear - Christ was made completely like unto ourselves, was tempted in all points even as we are, won the victory in a manner that took all of humanity into Himself, then paid the ransom for humanity by dying the death in our humanity, even as He was completely obedient in every point.

1 John contains this verse: 1 John 4:2. The word for "flesh" there is the same exact word for "flesh" found in Romans 8:5-8, found so at enmity with God. To deny Christ came in such a humanity that did not deal with our flesh as we must, is not from God (vs 3), is antichrist, and thus denies the Gospel. Ouch!

What is often left out of debates of this nature is that our strongest temptations do not come from the outside. They come from the inside and proceed out (as Christ definitively declares in Matthew 12:35, Matthew 15:10, and Mark 7:14-23).

If Christ was "tempted in all points as we, yet was without sin" as Hebrews 4:15 states, then He had to necessarily deal with these points of humanity as we must. He experienced deeply the war the flesh makes against the mind. Otherwise, the Scripture makes a false claim - and I know this is not the case.

Christ's struggle in the garden of Gethsemane (Matthew 26:39, Mark 14:36, Luke 22:42) indicates His human will was quite at contradiction with the Father's will. The portrait here is that Christ, in His humanity, also had to decide whether to follow His will, or the Father's. "Not My will, but Thine" encapsulates a struggle of wills, not a mere looking for an alternative path for Man's redemption, as is oft postulated.

After the garden struggle was over, the Gospel record indicates that Christ still had this choice - reflected in the language of John 18:11.

However, to say, "No!" to the cross at this point would have meant breaking up the unity He had with the Father, and not the "graceful backing out" of the plan of man's salvation.

Christ's human nature was such that He suffered all the various types of temptation we do, surrender a will (like we do), and seek to preserve the attachment to God He forges (as we do). I will also tender the thought that this life on earth He walked was fraught with the possibility of failure...just as sinners do fail in realizing the gift of God.

So...how did He win, if He wasn't a superman visiting us with no chance at losing because, after all, He was the Son of God?

John 14:10, 11 sums up a number of statement Christ made in that Gospel concerning how that victory was won, and confirmed again in Paul's declaration in Philippians 2:3-8.

God says this method is precisely how WE are to win that same victory:

John 14:12 (imagine this: Christ saying that at least one future sinner would repeat Christ’s victory and be found doing greater works -to the testament of God's power over the flesh - than seen in Christ...)

and we have the counsel of Philippians 2:12, 13.

Whatever Christ's human nature was, it allowed Him to fully taste of our experience as sinners here on earth, with the opportunity for making the wrong choice, while fully allowing the Father to so indwell Him (Colossians 2:9) that the Father's character (the image of which we were originally created in) was on full display.

To repeat this important point of the Gospel:

Whatever that humanity was, it allowed in Christ to realize the image of God to be completely and fully restored in a Man experiencing the issues of man's sin to the fullest. It also allows the Father and the Son to appeal to us to win the same victory by the same means Christ did. This appeal is possible because the sin issue is in reality a dead issue, as the death of Christ on the cross and resurrection into life as our new Adam testifies to.

I now add these texts into the mix...

Colossians 2:2

1 Timothy 3:16

Revelation 10:7

The mystery of the Gospel is a mystery, indeed...but it will be finished!

Why am I confident of that?

Philippians 1:6

Hebrews 12:1, 2

Jude 24, 25

and finally,

Galatians 2:20, 21

Blessings!

You got it right brother.

My only question to you is: What is the diference you see between sinful nature and sinful flesh? For many years the official position of the church was that "Jesus lived a sinless life in sinful flesh" as stated in Bible Readings for the Home.

Then came the change after the SDA/Evangelical meetings (18 of them) in the 1950s. It was changed to: "Jesus lived a sinless life in the flesh."

In His humanity Jesus was born with the same flesh and blood that we are born with and yet He did not sin! It is difficult for us to fathom how he never sinned when it is so easy for us to yield to the flesh.

"The enticements which Christ resisted were those that we find so difficult to withstand." D.A.116.

"For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of the degenerate humanity. ONLY THUS could He rescue man from the lowest depths of his degradation." D.A.117.

So, brother, your post is in harmony with these declarations, in harmony with Heb.2:14 and 4:15.

sky

[Gibs]

Absolutely right Sky, how can this be doubted is beyond me. Mary's son Jesus had her flesh which is the same as ours.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Absolutely right Sky, how can this be doubted is beyond me. Mary's son Jesus had her flesh which is the same as ours.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Exactly Gibs. Great is the mystery of godliness not in sinless flesh but in sinful flesh.

sky :)

[Robert]

....you mean that He was born with an inclination or propensity to sin, here is what she said....

Gerry, it was our sinful nature, not His. Christ is God. He assumed the human as the Son of mankind. By doing so He (as the son of mankind) came under the curse, just as we are, but not for sinning, but rather because we belong to a condemned race because of indwelling sin.

[Robert]

Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

If you mean the law, then we are a bunch of liars. Are you keeping the spirit of the law as did Christ? Somewhere earlier you said you weren't. So, do you really want to remain under law?

[Twilight II]

I give up. :-)

[Robert]

I give up. :-)

It's hard to stay to subject, but I'll give you another one besides Rom 6:6/7:4. Gal 4:4

[BobRyan]

Let's go to a point where both sides should be able to agree.

1. Did Christ have a corrupt, depraved, moral nature at birth? I think everyone will say - no.

2. Was Christ's nature at birth - in harmony with the devil? In harmony with rebellion against the Law of God? I think all will say "no" to this one as well.

3. Did Christ need to kill his old sin nature by faith in a Messiah that had come and died for him - taking his place and offering death to his old nature through some other prior Gospel?? I think all will agree that the answer here is "no".

4. Does the Romans 3 text about "no one seeking after God - no not even one" apply to Christ? I think both sides will agree that the answer here is also "no".

Which means our real job should be to define "What IS the sinful nature anyway!?"

in Christ,

Bob

[Twilight II]

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

The problem with this as a starting place, is that "under the law" is not specifically stating Christ had sin in Him.

If we asked the question of the Bible:

Did Christ have sin in Him?

The answer would come back:

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

So from that simple statement, can all the other texts in scripture be reconciled.

Yes they can.

So that would pass the test.

That cannot be said of the other texts, so they fail the test, leaving only this one as the correct foundation to build on.

[Ted Oplinger]

Sky,

You pose the wrong question. It is not between what is flesh and nature. It is between minds.

Romans 8:5-7, couple with Philippians 2:1-8 and 1 Corinthians 2:16

The mind of Christ was not allied with the flesh at all. The flesh warred against it (see Romans 8), just as it does us, but His was so completely surrendered to the Father, that the Father could do His will over all aspects of the humanity Christ bore. His mind never became set on the flesh, hence, He was always able to please the Father.

If Christ allowed His own will to rule at any point, then at that same point His mind would have ceded to the flesh. This is Christ's consistent testimony about Himself throughout the Gospel of John - "I can of My own self do nothing!"

This is how He won...and He freely gives this same victory to us.

Blessings!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

If you mean the law, then we are a bunch of liars. Are you keeping the spirit of the law as did Christ? Somewhere earlier you said you weren't. So, do you really want to remain under law?

If by "commandment" He did not mean the law of love expressed in the 10c, what other commandments could there be?

Yes, as a fallen human being, my obedience will ALWAYS fall short of Christ's perfection. BUT - "When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless religion." {FW 50.1}

ESV | ‎Ro 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. ‎2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. ‎3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, ‎4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. ‎5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. ‎6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace."

To whom is the righteousness of Christ that meets all the righteous requirements of the law fulfilled? Paul is pretty clear to me - it is those "who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

Paul is unequivocal when he says that those who walk after the flesh - steal, kill, fornicate, etc. (Gal 5:19ff) "will not inherit the kingdom of God."

It is an oxymoron to claim that the law cannot condemn you just by taking the name of Christ while willfully doing the very things it condemns. "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." ‎ESV | ‎Ga 5:18

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

....you mean that He was born with an inclination or propensity to sin, here is what she said....

Gerry, it was our sinful nature, not His. Christ is God. He assumed the human as the Son of mankind. By doing so He (as the son of mankind) came under the curse, just as we are, but not for sinning, but rather because we belong to a condemned race because of indwelling sin.

ESV | ‎Jn 1:14 "And the Word became flesh". None of that "assume" business!!!

[Gibs]

Don't give up Twilight 11, just hang in there and lay your see, won't hurt a thing.

I have a thing I would like to lay on the subject, EGW statement, and I must agree,

"Guiltless, He bore the punishment of the guilty. Innocent, yet offering Himself as a substitute for the transgressor. The guilt of every sin pressed its weight upon the divine soul of the world's Redeemer.--The Signs of the Times, Dec. 5, 1892. {7ABC 450.4}

He took upon his sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted.--Medical Ministry, p. 181. {7ABC 450.5}

V. Tempted on All Points

Christ alone had experience in all the sorrows and temptations that befall human beings. Never another of woman born was so fiercely beset by temptation; never another bore so heavy a burden of the world's sin and pain. Never was there another whose sympathies were so broad or so tender. A sharer in all the experiences of humanity, He could feel not only for, but with, every burdened and tempted and struggling one.--Education, p. 78. {7ABC 450.6}

So you see He knows us, our weakness and without His Indwelling we can overcome nothing. But His Divine Nature can be imparted to each struggling soul and then we too can be victorious as He was. Christ in us is our only Hope.

The Sinless one Gives us all power over sin, He is now reigning with all power and will until this sin problem is taken care of, and it is about to be completed very soon now, not many years to go, I know.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

I'd like to post this from 5BC page 1128. It makes Ellen Whites position on the nature of Christ very clear.

Quote:

Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {5BC 1128.4}

Bro. _____, avoid every question in relation to the humanity of Christ which is liable to be misunderstood. Truth lies close to the track of presumption. In treating upon the humanity of Christ, you need to guard strenuously every assertion, lest your words be taken to mean more than they imply, and thus you lose or dim the clear perceptions of His humanity as combined with divinity. His birth was a miracle of God; for, said the angel, “Behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” {5BC 1128.5}

These words do not refer to any human being, except to the Son of the infinite God. Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called “that holy thing.” It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that Christ could be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet be without sin. The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain a mystery. That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves; for it cannot be. The exact time when humanity blended with divinity, it is not necessary for us to know. We are to keep our feet on the Rock Christ Jesus, as God revealed in humanity. {5BC 1128.6}

This comment makes very clear that Ellen White's statements about Christ taking our "fallen nature" never meant that she thought Christ had our fallen moral nature. Taking her statements to mean that is taking that position and reading that idea into the statement.

[joeb]

Here is another quote from 5BC showing Ellen White's position on the nature of Christ. This one is from page 1131.

Quote:

In taking upon Himself man’s nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses by which man is encompassed, “that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.” He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He “knew no sin.” He was the lamb “without blemish and without spot.” Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour’s head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. Christ and the church would have been without hope. {5BC 1131.3}

We should have no misgivings in regard to the perfect sinlessness of the human nature of Christ. Our faith must be an intelligent faith, looking unto Jesus in perfect confidence, in full and entire faith in the atoning sacrifice. {5BC 1131.4}

How much plainer could Ellen White have made her position?

[joeb]

Here is yet another quote from Ellen White on this issue. It comes from My Life Today p. 323. This quote is the entire page.

Quote:

Those Who Have Conquered

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5:19 {ML 323.1}

Christ is called the second Adam. In purity and holiness, connected with God and beloved by God, He began where the first Adam began. Willingly He passed over the ground where Adam fell, and redeemed Adam’s failure. {ML 323.2}

But the first Adam was in every way more favorably situated than was Christ. The wonderful provision made for man in Eden was made by a God who loved him. Everything in nature was pure and undefiled.... Not a shadow interposed between them [Adam and Eve] and their Creator. They knew God as their beneficent Father, and in all things their will was conformed to the will of God.... {ML 323.3}

But Satan came to the dwellers in Eden and insinuated doubts of God’s wisdom. He accused Him, their Heavenly Father and Sovereign, of selfishness, because, to test their loyalty, He had prohibited them from eating of the tree of knowledge.... {ML 323.4}

Christ was tempted by Satan in a hundredfold severer manner than was Adam, and under circumstances in every way more trying. The deceiver presented himself as an angel of light, but Christ withstood his temptations. He redeemed Adam’s disgraceful fall, and saved the world.... {ML 323.5}

In His human nature He maintained the purity of His divine character. He lived the law of God, and honored it in a world of transgression, revealing to the heavenly universe, to Satan, and to all the fallen sons and daughters of Adam that through His grace humanity can keep the law of God. He came to impart His own divine nature, His own image, to the repentant, believing soul. {ML 323.6}

Christ’s victory was as complete as had been Adam’s failure. So we may resist temptation, and force Satan to depart from us. {ML 323.7}

How can there be any question as to Ellen White's position on the nature of Christ after these quotes? To attribute to her the idea that Christ took upon Himself our fallen moral nature is to ignore her very plain statements on the subject.

[Ted Oplinger]

Nice contributions, joeb. Thanks for sharing!

Blessings!

[Gibs]

Well she does make it very plain and here is a little more from what I had posted previous.

She makes it clear the first Adam before he fell had an advantage over the position Christ took on Himself to overcome in our behalf that we too could partake of the same, read very carefully please.

He took the nature of man, with all its possibilities. We have nothing to endure that He has not endured. . . . Adam had the advantage over Christ, in that when he was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing the full vigor of mind and body. He was surrounded with the glories of Eden, and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of degradation.--Ms. 113, 1902, pp. 1, 2 (See DA 117).

Many claim that it was impossible for Christ to be overcome by temptation. Then He could not have been placed in Adam's position; He could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain. If we have in any sense a more trying conflict than had Christ, then He would not be able to succor us. But our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. {DA 117.2}

Christ could have done nothing during His earthly ministry in saving fallen man if the divine had not been blended with the human. The limited capacity of man cannot define this wonderful mystery--the blending the two natures, the divine and the human. It can never be explained. Man must wonder and be silent. And yet man is privileged to be a partaker of the divine nature, and in this way he can to some degree enter into the mystery. This wonderful exhibition of God's love was made on the cross of Calvary. Divinity took the nature of humanity, and for what purpose?--That through the righteousness of Christ humanity might partake of the divine nature. This union of divinity and humanity, which was possible with Christ, is incomprehensible to human minds. The wonderful things to take place in our world--the greatest events of all ages--are incomprehensible to worldly minds; they cannot be explained by human sciences. The powers of heaven shall be shaken. Christ is coming in power and great glory, but His coming is not such a mystery as the things to take place before that event. Man must be a partaker of the divine nature in order to stand in this evil time, when the mysteries of satanic agencies are at work. Only by the divine power united with the human can souls endure through these times of trial. Says Christ, "Without me ye can do nothing." Then there must be far less of self and more of Jesus. {1888 332.1}

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Gibs,

When was the last time the Spirit drove you into the woods and told you to undergo starvation for a month before you were to be tempted with appetite? Think that's a little more extreme than anything you've ever experienced? I know it's a lot more extreme than anything I've ever experienced.

There is nothing in what you've quoted that requires Christ to have a fallen moral nature, and everything in what I've quoted that says Christ could not have had our fallen moral nature. You cannot reconcile your position with all of Ellen White's statements on the nature of Christ, at least I cannot see any way for you to do it anyway.

For Christ to have our fallen spiritual nature means that there had to have been something in Him that responded to temptation. We know this is not true. We know He had to have been a "lamb without blemish". An inclination to sin is a definite spiritual blemish and His sacrifice was for spiritual reasons. Thus, this eliminates the possibility of any spiritual blemishes in Christ.

[Gibs]

We know for sure Joeb that Christ was tried harder than any of us and He did it from where we are that He might succor us. Christ in you is the same power He had. Then actually we have an advantage over what Jesus bore, it is that Satan and his angels can see Him in you and know they are defeated to get you to fall to them as long as you don't cast Him out.

Without Him dwelling within, we have no hope.

Notwithstanding that the sins of a guilty world were laid upon Christ, notwithstanding the humiliation of taking upon Himself our fallen nature, the voice from heaven declared Him to be the Son of the Eternal. {DA 112.3}

Though He had no taint of sin upon His character, yet He condescended to connect our fallen human nature with His divinity. By thus taking humanity, He honored humanity. Having taken our fallen nature, he showed what it might become, by accepting the ample provision He has made for it, and by becoming partaker of the divine nature.--Letter 81, 1896. {3SM 134.2}

There is no way she stated this thing two ways, she means exactly what she says here and it has to be this way to meet the scriptures.,

The example He has left must be followed. He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted. {MM 181.3}

He who does this work must put into it his whole heart; for it is a work that requires all there is of a man. He who does it as a work that is done for wages, will make an utter failure. . . . {MM 181.4}

Ro 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Since He was made of the seed of David, He inherited our flesh and fallen nature. Just like the rest of us, unless one can prove the Catholic doctrine that Mary was "imaculate" without sing and she was not.

2Jo 1:7 ¶ For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Clossians 1:26, 27.) "An Unexplainable Blending.--Christ could have done nothing during His earthly ministry in saving fallen man if the divine had not been blended with the human. The limited capacity of man cannot define this wonderful mystery--the blending of the two natures, the divine and the human. It can never be explained. Man must wonder and be silent. And yet man is privileged to be a partaker of the divine nature, and in this way he can to some degree enter into the mystery" (Letter 5, 1889). {7BC 904.5}

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.