The Trinity?

[Gibs]

Well, Sky, I must beg your pardon,

The fullness of God the Father was in Him, He had it but it was not in the program to use it, Satan worked to make Him reach within, but He did not.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

"Satan’s representations against the government of God, and his defense of those who sided with him, were a constant accusation against God. These murmurings and complaints were groundless. Yet God allowed Satan to work out his theories. He could have handled Satan and all his sympathizers as easily as one can pick up a pebble and cast it to the earth. But by this He would have given a precedent for the violence of human beings that is so abundantly shown in our world in the compelling principles." {CTr 13.4}

Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

I don't know anyone who would question the fact that the Father was in Jesus of Nazareth doing the works. But Jesus did not lose His divinity when He became one of us. His divinity was there the whole time but He never used it. How can you say He never used the divinity of the Father when it was the divinity of the Father that was doing the works all the time!

Where was the divinity of Christ while on earth? It was still very much His own.

sky

[joeb]

I don't know anyone who would question the fact that the Father was in Jesus of Nazareth doing the works. But Jesus did not lose His divinity when He became one of us. His divinity was there the whole time but He never used it. How can you say He never used the divinity of the Father when it was the divinity of the Father that was doing the works all the time!

Where was the divinity of Christ while on earth? It was still very much His own.

sky

[skyblue888]

"Christ was God essentially, and IN THE HIGHEST SENSE. He was with GOD FROM ALL ETERNITY, God over all, blessed forevermore.(Rom.9:5) The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, A DISTINCT Person, YET one with the Father. He was the surpassing glory of Heaven. He was the Commander of the heavenly intelligences, and the adoring homage of the angels was received by Him as His right. THIS WAS NO ROBBERY OF GOD. There are light and glory in the truth that Christ was One with the Father before the foundation of the world was laid. This is the light shining in a dark place, making it resplendent with divine, ORIGINAL glory. This truth, INFINITELY MYSTERIOUS in itself, explains other mysterious and otherwise unexplainable truths, while it is enshrined in light UNAPPROACHABLE and INCOMPREHENSIBLE." E.G. white, Review & Herald, April 5,1906.

So in order to come to this earth in the form of man He had to divest Himself of the form of God but He did NOT divest Himself of His divine nature or divinity.

It was not the Father who became man but Christ.

Speaking of Christ, Mrs. White wrote, "Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own... He did not cease to be God when He became man... God became man. It was a wonderful humility." 5 B.C.1129.

"Christ did not exchange His divinity for humanity; but He had clothed His divinity with humanity... He veiled His divinity with the garb of humanity, but HE DID NOT PART WITH HIS DIVINITY." Idem.1128.

This makes it crystal clear that here she is not talking about the divinity of the Father but Christ's own divinity.

While on earth His own divinity was kept back at all times, He lived as a man. As a man he supplicated the throne of God until his humanity was charged with a heavenly current that connected His humanity with the divinity of the Father. Thus the Father dwelt in Jesus of Nazareth. But the divinity of Christ was there the whole time but it was always kept back. If Jesus had used His own divinity in the conflict with evil Satan would have won the controversy.

sky

[Ted Oplinger]

Well, Sky, I must beg your pardon,

The fullness of God the Father was in Him, He had it but it was not in the program to use it, Satan worked to make Him reach within, but He did not.

Well, Gibs, that is a perspective which cannot be reconciled to the dynamics of Christ's temptation in Matthew 3:17-4:4.

I do not think there is an occurrence anywhere in the Bible where the Father allows His Divine power to be used in sinning. It may not have "been in program to use" Divine power, but that does not preclude the possibility.

If the Divine power available was only the Father's - as you state - then this is not a temptation of Christ, but of the Father Himself...and the Gospel writer bears false witness as to who was being tempted.

If we state the Father's power cannot be used to sin, that cancels the dynamics of temptation - even if Christ were to weaken and choose here to turn stones to bread, it would have been an impossibility, as He has no power to do this in reality. The "choice" becomes a non-choice, because Christ has no way of following up and choosing to use power to make the temptation a reality, even in thought.

To make this work, Gibs, the Son must have access to Divine power which is not the Father's, but His own. Only then can this be a real temptation.

Blessings,

[Gibs]

Ted, the Divine power in Christ was His own to use, as He is given all power to take care of the sin problem and the proof of the pudding is He, before Bethlehem did the creation and the Hosts, that is why His title before Bethlehem is "Yahweh of Hosts".

Can't you see there is no Divine Power in the total of the universes but is the Fathers.

Eph 4:6 ONE God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Read again these verses, 1 Cor 15:24-28!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

Quote:

On the other hand if I say "In English or Hebrew" -- "Before Abraham WAS - I AM" it is a claim to the pre-existence of the Godhead. Hence the Jews' efforts to stone him for it.

Exactly the same words in Greek are ascribed to the blind man as to Jesus, but they are differently translated to English. The same Greek words occur 24 times in John alone, many times ascribed to Jesus. But only once is it translated "I am." Even Jack Blanco, an SDA, noticed the inconsistency. Those words can be translated in several ways, some of them making more sense in John 8:58 than "I am."

It was a translation by trinitarians to fit their views.

"Ego eimi" should be translated as "I am," and it is so translated in both John 8: 58 and John 9: 9.

John 9:9

... He kept saying, "I am he." Or: "I am the man."

It wouldn't make sense for Jesus to say, "Before Abraham existed, I am he." Nor would Jesus have said, "Before Abraham existed, I am the man."

The only way that it makes biblical sense to translate it is, "Before Abraham existed (or was born), I AM"

"Eimi" occurs over 100 times in the New Testament, and it is almost always translated "I am."

"Eimi" is the first person singular present verb, "I am" or "am".

"Ego" is the first person singluar pronoun, "I."

Jesus uses "ego eimi" in such statements as:

"I AM the light of the world," "I AM the door...," "I AM the good shepherd...," "I AM the Son of God," "I AM the resurrection and the life," "I AM the way...," "I AM the true vine...," "I AM Alpha and Omega..."

In a few places (Mark 6: 50; Matt 26: 22, 25; 14: 27; John 6: 20), it is translated "it is I," and in one place (Luke 19: 22) it is translated, "I was." Even in those verses,however, it would make sense to translate "ego eimi" as "I AM." For instance, Luke 19: 22 would then read, "You knew that I am [ego eimi] a severe man..."

In John 14: 9, "ego eimi" is translated "have I been so long with you?" If we translate it literally, it reads, "Jesus said to him, 'For such a long time I AM with you, and yet you have not known Me, Philip?'" Jesus was telling the disciples that He and the Father are exactly alike. Again, Jesus is "the I AM."

Jack Blanco's paraphrase doesn't give the words their literal translation. The Greek does not mean "Before Abraham was born, I existed." It's translated literally as, "Before Abraham existed, I AM."

It will make sense if you compare it to Exodus 3: 14, where God tells Moses "I AM THAT I AM." The Jews knew exactly what Christ was claiming by calling Himself "I AM." He was claiming to be the self-existent One. He commanded Moses to tell the Israelites that "the I AM" had sent him to them. It was Jesus Christ who saved the Israelites out of Egyptain bondage.

Jude 1:5 (ESV)--

Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

1 Cor. 10:9 (ESV)--

We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents...

[Dr. Waite]

Yes, Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, is the "self-existent one". But, where or from whom did he obtain the self-existence? hint - see John 5:26

[Enabled]

Sky said:

Quote:

"Christ did not exchange His divinity for humanity; but He had clothed His divinity with humanity... He veiled His divinity with the garb of humanity, but HE DID NOT PART WITH HIS DIVINITY." Idem.1128.

In like fashion we cannot part with our nature, yet we must be garbed with divinity, not revealing our nature. He was born again in the flesh that we might be born again in the spirit. Forever bound to man (Christ) forever bound to divinity (us). What an awesome promise fulfilled.

"It is the spirit that quickeneth,The flesh profiteth nothing....."

We must speak (live) the words of Christ that we might overcome, just as he did, dependent upon his Fathers Divine nature inherited in his begotten-ness a true son. As begotten son's (spiritually) of Christ we are true son's of the Father.

Quote:

From Jesus is our life derived. In Him is life that is original,--unborrowed, underived life. In us there is a streamlet from the fountain of life. In Him is the fountain of life. Our life is something that we receive, something that the Giver takes back again to Himself. If our life is hid with Christ in God, ....He was tempted in all points as human beings are tempted, that He might reveal that it is possible for us to be victorious overcomers, one with Christ as Christ is one with the Father. SptB19 letter extract

Note it is thus that we are tempted and found to be over-comers: one with Christ as he is one with the Father. The river of life flows from the Father through his Son to us and through us to the world and again returns to the Father. Read the quote carefully instead of pulling it out of its context. Consider Rev 22:1 and to think Christ has promised this same life to us, life eternal. We even sing the song "I have a river of life flowing out of me"

Happy Sabbath

[John317]

Yes, Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, is the "self-existent one". But, where or from whom did he obtain the self-existence? hint - see John 5:26

Only God is "self-existent." All others depend on God for their existence.

Jesus Christ is God.

The definition of "self-existence" is having no dependence on another for one's existence.

Here's the definitions from the 1828 Webster's Dictionary:

Quote:

SELF-EXISTENCE, n. [self and existence.] Inherent existence; the existence possossed by virtue of a being's own nature, and independent of any other being or cause; an attribute peculiar to God.

SELF-EXISTENT, a. Existing by its own nature or essense, independent of any other cause. God is the only self-existent being.

It isn't possible for anyone to obtain "self-existence" from anyone else. You might as well ask where God obtained his self-existence.

The pre-existent Christ as also known by the name "Yahweh" in the Old Testament, and "Yahweh" means "self-existent One." Christ was "the I AM" who talked to Moses at the Burning Bush in Ex 3. The Bible refers to Him as "God" and "Yahweh." See Exodus 3: 15-17.

Quote:

John 5:24-28

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

[25] "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. [26] For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. [27] And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. [28] Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice...

Jesus is there speaking from the viewpoint of the Son of man, a human being. As the Son of man, Jesus of Nazareth depended totally upon His Father. By His own testimony, Christ could not do anything on His own. He was as dependent on the Holy Spirit, the angels, and on the Father as we are. In fact, Christ was dependent on a Samaritan woman for a drink of water.

But that is obviously not the case with the eternal, self-existent Word of God who created the entire universe. John 1: 3; Heb 1: 2, 3, 10; Col 1: 15-17.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

Yes, Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, is the "self-existent one". But, where or from whom did he obtain the self-existence? hint - see John 5:26

Only God is "self-existent." All others depend on God for their existence.

Jesus Christ is God.

The definition of "self-existence" is having no dependence on another for one's existence.

Here's the definitions from the 1828 Webster's Dictionary:

Quote:

SELF-EXISTENCE, n. [self and existence.] Inherent existence; the existence possossed by virtue of a being's own nature, and independent of any other being or cause; an attribute peculiar to God.

SELF-EXISTENT, a. Existing by its own nature or essense, independent of any other cause. God is the only self-existent being.

It isn't possible for anyone to obtain "self-existence" from anyone else. You might as well ask where God obtained his self-existence.

The pre-existent Christ as also known by the name "Yahweh" in the Old Testament, and "Yahweh" means "self-existent One." Christ was "the I AM" who talked to Moses at the Burning Bush in Ex 3. The Bible refers to Him as "God" and "Yahweh." See Exodus 3: 15-17.

Quote:

John 5:24-28

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

[25] "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. [26] For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. [27] And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. [28] Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice...

Jesus is there speaking from the viewpoint of the Son of man, a human being. As the Son of man, Jesus of Nazareth depended totally upon His Father. By His own testimony, Christ could not do anything on His own. He was as dependent on the Holy Spirit, the angels, and on the Father as we are. In fact, Christ was dependent on a Samaritan woman for a drink of water.

But that is obviously not the case with the eternal, self-existent Word of God who created the entire universe. John 1: 3; Heb 1: 2, 3, 10; Col 1: 15-17.

The verse you quoted clearly states: "the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God". It does NOT say that the dead shall hear the voice of the "son of man". If you add to the Word of God, might the only true God add to you the plaques written in the book?

How do you know, Jesus Christ was talking from the viewpoint of being the Son of man? If Jesus Christ was fully human just like we are fully human, then you are saying that he possessed something that we do not have i.e "life within himself" and "authority to execute judgment"

Was Jesus Christ the human son of the heavenly Father or was He the divine Son of the heavenly Father?

[Dr. Waite]

Quote:

It isn't possible for anyone to obtain "self-existence" from anyone else. You might as well ask where God obtained his self-existence.

The pre-existent Christ as also known by the name "Yahweh" in the Old Testament, and "Yahweh" means "self-existent One." Christ was "the I AM" who talked to Moses at the Burning Bush in Ex 3. The Bible refers to Him as "God" and "Yahweh." See Exodus 3: 15-17.

You need to compare scripture with scripture. Only the Father of Jesus Christ has natural immortality.

Quote:

Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:16

This verse is talking about the Father of Jesus Christ.

[Gibs]

Yes of course we can know that Emmanuel, Jesus is God with us! But what God? Question is an easy one, the Father of course, yes the one and only, none other is known of.

In Him, Jesus, the Father dwelt FULLY! - - Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

So dear ones, to worship the Son is to worship the Father and to worship the Father is to worship the Son. Ah yes! He said it, - - Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Fifth graders can see that, don't be confused by the well oiled orators that don't read the scriptures to know what is what. He, Jesus, gives babes better understanding than many of these sell oiled orators taught the art of SNLP, Super Neuro-Linguistic Programming which today I find all are. Most are taken in of their "spell".

That one murderer that finally came to justice, was a trainer of SNLP, an art from Satan.

Back to the Godhead, The Father only is God! He was in Jesus Christ, FULLY! Jesus was not another God. His name still was and is yet, Yahweh the Messiah!

The Holy Spirit is what God the Father is, Jesus said so and I believe Him, as I know if any knows He does!

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Each there is a person, yes the very person of God the Father, the one and only God!

The Man Jesus was a person too, one of us that God came in, the body prepared Him!

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. - - Read more to this verse at 1 Cor 15:24-28, very profound!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[M. T. Cross]

Wow, 706 replies and yet still no-one has convinced the other side to believe the same as them.........

[John317]

And what do you conclude from this?

[joeb]

Wow, 706 replies and yet still no-one has convinced the other side to believe the same as them.........

Not a single one of us are capable of convincing another person of the truth about God. There is only one person in the universe capable of doing that, but everyone has the ability to deny truth.

I'm sure you've heard the old saying, A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still....

As to the only person able to convince someone of truth, the answer is found in John 16:13.

Oh, two questions for you. How many posts have you made on this site, and, how many people here have you persuaded to become pagans/leave Christianity?

[Gibs]

There is but one Yahweh,YHWH, and but one that can claim that name!

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

Isa 43:13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

Isa 43:14 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.

LORD in all capital letters above is for the Divine Name, Yahweh!

Yes for sure and absolute, Yahweh is our Redeemer! Yahweh gave of Himself to be our Redeemer.

Emmanuel, is God with us. For sure Yahweh the King of Israel was in Christ Jesus reconciling the world unto Himself! Then at Bethlehem, Yahweh-Messiah!

Before coming in Jesus the Redeemer extension was Yahweh of Hosts,

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

(One substance as there is no second there above, but the Father possessed His Redeemer before anything! Read Proverbs 8:22. Hmm, it is for sure they truly are ONE!)

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Windsor]

I think it ironic that one of the most important texts in Judaism contained within the Shema Yisrael is Deuteronomy 6:4 and they use this very text to disprove the Messiahship of Jesus and the idea of a trinity.

The King James renders it as follows:

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"

Yet the word for God is "Elohim" meaning Gods. The word for one is "echad". Echad means "one" collectively or unitedly not one as in a single item where "yachid" should be used. Echad is used for the two becoming "one" flesh, "one" cluster of grapes, "one company", etc. It's a collective "one" rather than a single "one". Maimonides, the Jewish philosopher, in writing his 13 Articles of Faith substituted the word "echad" for "yachid", clearly understanding the implications of what the Bible actually stated.

So it should be rendered: (using Jehovah for Lord)

"Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our Gods is Jehovah a unity."

[phkrause]

This is how its rendered by the CJB:

Deut 6:4 "Sh'ma, Yisra'el! ADONAI Eloheinu, ADONAI echad [Hear, Isra'el! ADONAI our God, ADONAI is one];

and here is the Online Jewish Bible

Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one.

with Rashi commentary:

The Lord is our God; the Lord is one: The Lord, who is now our God and not the God of the other nations-He will be [declared] in the future “the one God,” as it is said: “For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord” (Zeph. 3:9), and it is [also] said: “On that day will the Lord be one and His name one” (Zech. 14:9). (see Sifrei)

[John317]

Was Jesus Christ the human son of the heavenly Father or was He the divine Son of the heavenly Father?

Both, of course. Jesus Christ was and is both human and divine. God the Word took on human flesh and lived among us as a human being. He was literally "God with us," that is, "Jehovah Immanuel." He was God essentially and in the highest sense, equal to the Father, yet He was and is to this day a man. John 1: 1-3, 14, 18; 8: 58; Matt 1: 23; Phil 2: 5-8; Heb 1: 2-3, 10; 2: 9-10, 11, 14, 17; 1 Tim 2: 5; 3: 16.

[M. T. Cross]

And what do you conclude from this?

If I was just looking at the number I would conclude that you were all legally insane.

But since I have read the whole thread (and yes that was stunningly painful) I conclude that there are people here that no matter what, are more interested in being RIGHT than they are in finding truth. Not sayin which side I see that on more, but it sure is there.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Wow, 706 replies and yet still no-one has convinced the other side to believe the same as them.........

Not a single one of us are capable of convincing another person of the truth about God. There is only one person in the universe capable of doing that, but everyone has the ability to deny truth.

I'm sure you've heard the old saying, A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still....

As to the only person able to convince someone of truth, the answer is found in John 16:13.

Oh, two questions for you. How many posts have you made on this site, and, how many people here have you persuaded to become pagans/leave Christianity?

The more accurate question is how many people have I tried to persuade to become pagans or leave Christianity. I challenge you to find a single post from me telling anyone here that they should give up their beliefs and/or become a pagan. Go ahead and look through my posting history, do so in an honest manner. Just one post.

[John317]

Not a single one of us are capable of convincing another person of the truth about God. There is only one person in the universe capable of doing that, but everyone has the ability to deny truth.

I'm sure you've heard the old saying, A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still....

So true!

There are people on the forum who change their thinking on some things due to participation on World Wide Adventist Forum, but it ususally takes place gradually and over a long time.

However, changing people's minds in a dramtic way is not the primary goal of the posts. Their main purpose is to let other readers make up their own minds about the various answers to people's questions and objections. It's amazing how many readers come to this forum.

[John317]

The more accurate question is how many people have I tried to persuade to become pagans or leave Christianity. I challenge you to find a single post from me telling anyone here that they should give up their beliefs and/or become a pagan.

That's rarely done straightforwardly.

[John317]

If I was just looking at the number I would conclude that you were all legally insane.

But since I have read the whole thread (and yes that was stunningly painful)...

I would love to hear your thoughts about the teaching of the Bible on this subject. What do you recall of the Bible's teachings regarding who God is? What does the Bible say about Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit?