The Trinity?

[John317]

This is a high level overview of the trinity and its origins. This work is not original. I sourced it from the Internet. Some phrases are even verbatim.

The concept of a traid of gods was familiar in many pagan systems. This paved the way for the entry of the trinitarian dogma into Christianity.

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You would have a good point here except for the fact that the Scriptures themselves-- not to mention Ellen White-- teach the concept to the triune God.

The Bible teaches:

1) the Father is God {Eph 1: 2};

2) Jesus Christ is God {Titus 2: 13; 2 Peter 1: 1; John 20: 28; Matt 1: 23; John 1: 1};

3) and the Holy Spirit is God {Acts 5: 3-4}.

Matt 28: 19 also shows that these three are distinct divine persons who have a single name:

Jesus Himself commanded: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

[John317]

This is a high level overview of the trinity and its origins. This work is not original. I sourced it from the Internet. Some phrases are even verbatim.

The concept of a traid of gods was familiar in many pagan systems. This paved the way for the entry of the trinitarian dogma into Christianity.

Does the Bible teach Sunday-sacredness? No. If it did, we wouldn't have a reason to talk about Sunday being a pagan holiday.

Similarly, since the Bible itself contains the concept of the Trinity, it is useless to appeal to paganism as the source of the doctrine of the triune God.

Seventh-day Adventists aren't influenced by paganism-- we base our doctrines on the Bible alone.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yahweh is one. But do you mean "one" or "1"? There is a difference. Jesus said that He and the Father are "one," not "1." Similarly, Jesus prayed that His followers would be "one," not "1."

I am sorry, but there is only one way to describe this: utter nonsense. 1 can be seen as a "number" data type on which numeric operators can operate and "one" as a String or alphabetic data type. But that's in programming languages.

The point is that Christ used the word "one" in a way that does not mean the mathematical 1. Therefore, it needs to be understood that "one God" does not necessarily mean 1 God. Even the Hebrew makes this distinction. There is the plural "one" of unity, and then there is the singular "1". God declared Adam and Eve-- two persons-- to be "one flesh." He obviously did not signify that these two distinct persons were "1".

[Gibs]

This one is a numeral one 1.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

heis hice

(including the neuter (etc.) hen); a primary numeral; one:--a(-n, -ny, certain), + abundantly, man, one (another), only, other, some. See also 1527, 3367, 3391, 3762.

See Greek 1527

See Greek 3367

See Greek 3391

See Greek 3762

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

The point is that Christ used the word "one" in a way that does not mean the mathematical 1. Therefore, it needs to be understood that "one God" does not necessarily mean 1 God. Even the Hebrew makes this distinction. There is the plural "one" of unity, and then there is the singular "1". God declared Adam and Eve-- two persons-- to be "one flesh." He obviously did not signify that these two distinct persons were "1".

This is how dictionary.com defines a metaphor:

Quote:

a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in “A mighty fortress is our God.” Compare mixed metaphor, simile

Jesus prayed that his disciples would be like one like he and the Father were like one.

You will see that Gibs immediately said it was the numerical one. It's not. It's a metaphor and has very little to do with "one."

It means united in thought and purpose, of the same mind, agreeing on a certain set of principles, etc. I am absolutely sure Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father are like one in that sense. But that doesn't make them equal and establish a triplet brother relationship between them.

Again, it's these word games without which the trinity dogma can't exist. If we get rid of all the hot air in support of it, the trinity dogma will evaporate.

[Gibs]

There is one, and one stands alone, God and I know not any other. Do you? Pray tell me his name. The Name of my God is Yahweh, YHWH and there is no other. This is who was in Christ, the Deity in Christ if you can see, and not another God.

Jesus was not another God and neither was the Holy Spirit!,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Trinity is a wresting of the scripture! Do not do that!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

There is but one Yahweh,YHWH, and but one that can claim that name!

Yes, Yahweh is one. But do you mean "one" or "1"? There is a difference. Jesus said that He and the Father are "one," not "1." Similarly, Jesus prayed that His followers would be "one," not "1."

There is only ONE person who is the "only true God". See John 17:3

[Dr. Waite]

Quote:

True it turns out as Ellen was a sick frail woman with only a third grade education.

She was an avid reader. Stupid people don't read much. And she lived to 87, belying her frailty.

I've always taken her health history with more than a pinch of salt. The stone throw to the nose also has me a bit baffled. Blows to the nose don't usually result in a coma, let alone one for three weeks. And I don't see any "severe" disfigurement of her nose. I've also looked at her photos well and don't see any facial asymmetry, which may indicate a facial nerve paralysis or weakness.

How people can diagnose petit mal epilepsy and other diseases over a century away, I don't know. I've seen enough patients with very fanciful diagnoses referred to me by GPs who have actually seen the patients to have very little faith in GPs. Now put a century in between and not actually having seen the patient... And what did the GPs of the 1800s know? And what special investigations did they have available?

These stories sound to me like urban legends, admittedly SDA urban legends.

A strong blow to the head can cause a sub-dural or epi-dural hematoma resulting in coma. In her day there was no CT scanner or MRI. So, we do not know the full extent of the trauma she suffered.

[epaminondas]

You would have a good point here except for the fact that the Scriptures themselves-- not to mention Ellen White-- teach the concept to the triune God.

The Bible teaches:

1) the Father is God {Eph 1: 2};

2) Jesus Christ is God {Titus 2: 13; 2 Peter 1: 1; John 20: 28; Matt 1: 23; John 1: 1};

3) and the Holy Spirit is God {Acts 5: 3-4}.

Matt 28: 19 also shows that these three are distinct divine persons who have a single name:

Jesus Himself commanded: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

[epaminondas]

Quote:

From my perspective, I'd rather say there are 3 distinct persons who are one God.

The Trills in Deep Space Nine sometimes had a symbiont implanted that lived in them as another distinct entity. Your trinity goes one better. Only, a Trill and his symbiont couldn't be apart and act as two distinct entities. Then there were the Changelings who could join together as the Great Link and be one or exist apart and act apart. How come the trinity makes me think so much about science fiction?

[epaminondas]

Yes, Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, is the "self-existent one". But, where or from whom did he obtain the self-existence? hint - see John 5:26

It depends how you define self-existent. If you say it's like a kind of perpetual motion machine (they don't exist), created and then able to exist independently, it may make sense. But if you say it means something like "created oneself," then it's an oxymoron to say a self existent being derived self existence from someone else.

Jesus never claimed existence apart from the Father.

[epaminondas]

Originally Posted By: Johann

pardon me for intruding here even though I have not been with you from the beginning. I have heard an indication that those who reject the trinity also reject the ordination of women. Is this true or false^

False, I believe in the Trinity and after listening to DB accept how he sees it. Personally think that we should not ordain either, because as Gibs says, they are already ordained by God.

You mean God came down and ordained pastors for the SDA church and ministers for the Presbyterian church, etc.? I thought this was done by various church offices.

If the various churches stop ordaining ministers and their equivalents, what will happen if the present ones retire? Advocating stopping ordination indicates a clean break from reality. I'm surprised you don't have more support for this from other trinitarians.

There's no indication in the Bible that God ordained female priests. All the disciples were male, too. I can't think of one explicitly named church position filled by females, although it is explicitly mentioned that there were women helping, I think, in the temple.

[epaminondas]

This one is a numeral one 1.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

heis hice

(including the neuter (etc.) hen); a primary numeral; one:--a(-n, -ny, certain), + abundantly, man, one (another), only, other, some. See also 1527, 3367, 3391, 3762.

See Greek 1527

See Greek 3367

See Greek 3391

See Greek 3762

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[epaminondas]

A strong blow to the head can cause a sub-dural or epi-dural hematoma resulting in coma. In her day there was no CT scanner or MRI. So, we do not know the full extent of the trauma she suffered.

This is going back a long way. Most of the last 20 years of my medical career was spent in ENT surgery. A subdural is found in a shearing injury, that's to say fast acceleration causing the brain to move and the subdural veins to tear. Some brain shrinkage, as in the elderly, is a contributory factor. Because of the low pressure of the veins, symptoms may develop slowly, often only when the clot breaks down and becomes hydrophylic. With a blow to the nose, this is not a strong contender.

70 - 80% of epidurals occur with injuries to the temporal bone, where the skull is thinnest. A stone to the nose makes this reasonably unlikely.

[Dr. Waite]

Quote:

This is going back a long way. Most of the last 20 years of my medical career was spent in ENT surgery. A subdural is found in a shearing injury, that's to say fast acceleration causing the brain to move and the subdural veins to tear. Some brain shrinkage, as in the elderly, is a contributory factor. Because of the low pressure of the veins, symptoms may develop slowly, often only when the clot breaks down and becomes hydrophylic. With a blow to the nose, this is not a strong contender.

70 - 80% of epidurals occur with injuries to the temporal bone, where the skull is thinnest. A stone to the nose makes this reasonably unlikely.

Thank you for your comments. This is the account that Ellen White gives:

Quote:

While I was but a child, my parents removed from Gorham to Portland, Maine. Here, at the age of nine years, an accident happened to me which was to affect my whole life. In company with my twin sister and one of our schoolmates, I was crossing a common in the city of Portland, when a girl about thirteen years of age, becoming angry at some trifle, followed us, threatening to strike us. Our parents had taught us never to contend with anyone, but if we were in danger of being abused or injured, to hasten home at once. We were doing this with all speed, but the girl followed us as rapidly, with a stone in her hand. I turned my head to see how far she was behind me, and as I did so, she threw the stone, and it hit me on the nose. I was stunned by the blow and fell senseless to the ground.

When consciousness returned, I found myself in a merchant's store; my garments were covered with blood, which was pouring from my nose and streaming over the floor. A kind stranger offered to take me home in his carriage, but I, not realizing my weakness, told him that I preferred to walk home rather than soil his carriage with blood. Those present were not aware that my injury was so serious, and allowed me to do as I wished; but after walking only a few rods, I grew faint and dizzy. My twin sister and my schoolmate carried me home. {1T 10.1}

I have no recollection of anything further for some time after the accident. My mother said that I noticed nothing, but lay in a stupor for three weeks. No one but herself thought it possible for me to recover; but for some reason she felt that I would live. A kind neighbor, who had been very much interested in my behalf, at one time thought me to be dying. She wished to purchase a burial robe for me, but my mother said, Not yet; for something told her that I would not die. {1T 10.2}

When I again aroused to consciousness, it seemed to me that I had been asleep. I did not remember the accident, and was ignorant of the cause of my illness. As I began to gain a little strength, my curiosity was aroused by overhearing those who came to visit me say: "What a pity!" "I should not have known her," etc. I asked for a looking glass, and upon gazing into it, was shocked at the change in my appearance. Every feature of my face seemed changed. The bones of my nose had been broken, which caused this disfigurement. {1T 10.3}

The thought of carrying my misfortune through life was insupportable. I could see no pleasure in my existence. I did not wish to live, and yet feared to die, for I was unprepared. Friends who visited us looked with pity upon me, and advised my parents to prosecute the father of the girl who had, as they said, ruined me. But my mother was for peace; she said that if such a course would bring me back my health and natural looks, there would be something gained; but as this was impossible, it was best not to make enemies by following such advice. {1T 10.4}

Physicians thought that a silver wire might be put in my nose to hold it in shape. This would have been very painful, and they feared it would be of little use, as I had lost so much blood and sustained such a nervous shock, that my recovery was very doubtful. Even if I revived, it was their opinion that I could live but a short time. I was reduced almost to a skeleton. {1T 11.1}

This gives more information regarding the injury she suffered.

[Johann]

So it is quite evident that a "certain" kind of Bible understanding leads to the belief that:

1) Trinity is not Biblical and

2) The ordination of women is not Biblical

[BobRyan]

It is evident that "a certain kind of Bible understanding" leads to the Belief that the Ten Commandments are still applicable to mankind today, that the 7th day is the Sabbath, that the earth and all life on it was created in a literal 7 day week and that the Sabbath is on Saturday not Sunday. I t also leads to the understanding that Christ was born of a virgin and rose bodily from the dead and that man is not immortal.

How "instructive".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: John317

You would have a good point here except for the fact that the Scriptures themselves-- not to mention Ellen White-- teach the concept to the triune God.

The Bible teaches:

1) the Father is God {Eph 1: 2};

2) Jesus Christ is God {Titus 2: 13; 2 Peter 1: 1; John 20: 28; Matt 1: 23; John 1: 1};

3) and the Holy Spirit is God {Acts 5: 3-4}.

Matt 28: 19 also shows that these three are distinct divine persons who have a single name:

Jesus Himself commanded: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

It appears you did not read what I wrote. First, Ellen White. Both trinitarians and unitarians have claimed Ellen White on this thread. That can only mean one thing: she did not express herself clearly on this topic, most likely because she said things which can be interpreted both ways. So, neither the trinitarians nor the unitarians can claim her.

I have not read much of this thread but that exchange above appears to "say it all".

The idea that Christians differ in Bible doctrine being proof that "God did not express Himself clearly in the Bible" and the supposed proof being "because the Bible says things that have been interepreted both ways" - demonstrates the failing point in the argument against the triune God of the Bible.

We are left then to conclude in favor of the Bible teaching in Col 1 that "in Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead" and Christ said that "HE" the Holy Spirit "when HE comes will guide you into all truth for HE will speak of Me" John 16 and this is what Christ offers as a "ANOTHER Comforter" John 14 - another teacher and guide such as was Christ to the disciples!

Ellen White said clearly - the Holy Spirit is "THE THIRD PERSON of the Godhead" and this is such a pointed statement that not once do you see it promoted by those who deny the Bible teaching on the Triune Godhead to make their case - no not even once.

It just does not get any simpler and easier than that.

in Christ,

Bob

[Dr. Waite]

In answer to the following quote by Bob Ryan:

Quote:

We are left then to conclude in favor of the Bible teaching in Col 1 that "in Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead" and Christ said that "HE" the Holy Spirit "when HE comes will guide you into all truth for HE will speak of Me" John 16 and this is what Christ offers as a "ANOTHER Comforter" John 14 - another teacher and guide such as was Christ to the disciples!

Ellen White said clearly - the Holy Spirit is "THE THIRD PERSON of the Godhead" and this is such a pointed statement that not once do you see it promoted by those who deny the Bible teaching on the Triune Godhead to make their case - no not even once.

The greek word "theotees", does not mean a three person deity. It is a bad translation.

Quote:

In 1881, when the KJV was in common use and the first English revision of its New Testament was published, an article by H. V. Reed appeared in the magazine Restitution. He wrote: "The word godhead is not good English: it means nothing in itself and conveys no idea to the reader: What is a godhead?" It is merely a bad translation. The Greek manuscript word should be rendered 'divinity' or 'deity'. Many Bible scholars and translators have realized that 'godhead' does not convey clear meaning. Weymouth, Moffatt, Smith-Goodspeed, Farrar Fenton, RSV, Good News, NAS, Living Bible, NIV, J. B. Phillips, Bible in Living English, Jerusalem Bible, NWT, Emphatic Diaglott, and The Everyday Bible versions, all recognizing its inadequacy, use some word or phrase other than 'godhead' seen three times in the KJV, where, in Acts 17:29, Rom. 1:20, Col. 2:9, it represents a different Greek word each time.

'Godhead' in Colossians 2:9 of the KJV is a translation of the Greek theotees, which is "an abstract noun for theos," the usual Greek word translated 'God'. (Greek-English Lexicon, Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich) "An abstract noun is one indicating a quality, as goodness, beauty." (Funk and Wagnalls Standard Dictionary, International Edition). From this it is seen that when Paul wrote of Christ Jesus that "In Him dwelleth all the fulness of deity" he said that all the qualities of God dwelt in Christ Jesus our Lord. In view of that, one may be sure that whatever 'godhead' may be thought to mean, it surely does not properly represent the meaning of the Greek words Paul wrote.

Where did Ellen White say that the Father is the first person of the godhead? Or, that the Son is the second person of the godhead?

Where in the Bible does it say that the Father is the first person of the godhead? or, the Son is the second person of the godhead? or, the holy spirit is the third person of the godhead?

[Gibs]

The problem with the quote of EGW is the "person" statement.

The Holy Spirit Christ Himself said it and if any tells us truth it is He.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So literally the Holy Spirit is what God is and not another person!

If you have more than one person in it, you would have more than one God and that won't "hold water", not true in other words!

Christ Jesus was a man person but the Deity in Him was the indwelling fully of the Father. So it is a fact He was not another God but THE ONE AND ONLY GOD Yahweh was in Him. Emmanuel, God the Father with us covered with the flesh of Jesus Christ.

We worship the Son and it is not robbery of God because to worship the Son is worship of the Father fully in Him!

One God Brothers and Sisters and one God only is the truth.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

No plural to the "one" used in those two verses! 1, one, stands alone. The Greek for one in above verses,note, primary numeral 1 and then only!

heis hice

(including the neuter (etc.) hen); a primary numeral; one:--a(-n, -ny, certain), + abundantly, man, one (another), only, other, some. See also 1527, 3367, 3391, 3762.

It would be a real twist of scripture to make two or three of that!

Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[o2bwise]

Hi All,

Boy, did I get derailed! Haven’t posted in quite awhile.

I would like to ask all of you, especially Trinitarians, if you might consider reading my post with the following date and time stamp:

#613082 - 02/26/13 11:13 AM

and appeal to me with your reason on the following point, the alleged personhood of the Holy Spirit.

Zechariah 6:13

Yes, He shall build the temple of the Lord. He shall bear the glory, And shall sit and rule on His throne; So He shall be a priest on His throne, And the counsel of peace shall be between them both." '

Quote:

Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 34

The Sovereign of the universe was not alone in His work of beneficence. He had an associate--a co-worker who could appreciate His purposes, and could share His joy in giving happiness to created beings. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God." John 1:1, 2. Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father--one in nature, in character, in purpose--the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. "His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6. His "goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2. And the Son of God declares concerning Himself: "The Lord possessed Me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was set up from everlasting. . . . When He appointed the foundations of the earth: then I was by Him, as one brought up with Him: and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him." Proverbs 8:22-30.

The Father wrought by His Son in the creation of all heavenly beings.

Why did I find it so uncomfortable to pray to the Holy Spirit if the HS is a person?

Why does the Bible say the counsel of peace was between TWO if the HS is a person?

Why does Ellen White say God had ONE with which to counsel with IF the HS is a person?

To summarize, how is it the HS is a person if so many do not treat the HS as a person? This including the Bible, Ellen White, God (the Father), the Son of God, and myself (relating my extreme discomfort when doing so and so stopping the practice).

Blessings,

Tony

[Gibs]

o2bwise

The answer to your question is easy, In the beginning before any thing Yah the Father saw He would need a redeemer. So He possessed of Himself, possessed there means extension, or to procure.

Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

And so then here is the Elohiym brought to view by Isaiah,

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

So there you see the council of peace was between Yahweh King of Israel" and His Redeemer Yahweh of Hosts.

Then the proclamation to Israel, the Shema, states,

Here it is stated God, Elohiym, is one Yahweh! There is a united Yahweh but not two Yahwehs! Yahweh is singular.

De 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: (LORD is Yahweh)

One there means united. And this will be the case until all that The Redeemer of Himself has accomplished all He is brought forth to do.

Please read 1 Cor 15:24-38 very carefully and reason out each verse, this is a profound see and understanding of this.

Note! you will see that when it is completed The Father is ALL IN ALL AGAIN! What a revelation!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[o2bwise]

Hi Gibs,

Appreciate your response though it is somewhat cryptic for me.

In your view, is the HS a person?

Blessings,

Tony

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

Where did Ellen White say that the Father is the first person of the godhead? Or, that the Son is the second person of the godhead?

Where in the Bible does it say that the Father is the first person of the godhead? or, the Son is the second person of the godhead? or, the holy spirit is the third person of the godhead?

It is strange people always spiritualize literal things in the Bible and literalise spiritual things in the Bible.

It is strange how certain people evade answering simple questions.

[Gibs]

o2bwise Yes, the Holy Spirit is God, that is what Jesus said, not me. God is Spirit and the main of us is spirit, the real you that dwells in the body. The only spirits that will be taken back to God for eternity will be of the second resurrection and remembered no more.

The rest of us will be like Him in the first resurrection.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.