The Trinity?

[epaminondas]

Quote:

That is the crux of the matter, who is guiding?

How does anyone know what comes up in his head are not just random thoughts?

I've read that Cat Stevens decided to become a Muslim when he read the Koran's version of Joseph's story. He just felt that had to be right.

Thirty years ago a Mormon missionary, I still remember both their names, told me when he heard of Mormonism he felt it had to be right. He spoke of the Emmaus travelers saying how their hearts burned within them when they heard Jesus speaking. His heart burned within him when he heard of Mormonism. He took that as an indicator of the truth.

I worked in Saudi Arabia. The first place, Taif, was not too far from Mecca. On weekends some expats would camp out in the dessert. Mecca has huge mountains to one side of it. One night one of these expats lay on his stomach on the top of a mountain and looked out over the lights of Mecca. A feeling seized him that that just had to be right. He became a Muslim.

JFK jnr felt he had enough altitude and flew into the sea. It was night. An altimeter is in every light commercially sold plane. He decided to go with his feelings and ignored the fact of the altimeter reading.

Give me facts over feelings every day and night. The concept of the trinity cannot do without feelings and mostly ignores Biblical facts.

[epaminondas]

The relationships between the Father and the Son

In John 5 the Jews accused Jesus of making himself equal with God.

Quote:

WEBME: John Chapter 5

[18] For this cause therefore the Judeans sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

This was an excellent opportunity to teach people about the relationship between the Father and the Son. Jesus did just that. He also spoke of these:

• John the Baptist
• the writings
• his miracles
• Moses

I'm leaving them out for now. This is what Jesus said about his relationship with the Father:

Quote:

WEBME: John Chapter 5

[19] Yeshua therefore answered them, “Most certainly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.

[20] For the Father has affection for the Son, and shows him all things that he himself does. He will show him greater works than these, that you may marvel.

[21] For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom he desires.

[22] For the Father judges no one, but he has given all judgment to the Son,

[23] that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who doesn’t honor the Son doesn’t honor the Father who sent him.

[24] “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

[25] Most certainly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God’s voice; and those who hear will live.

[26] For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself.

[27] He also gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.

...

[30] I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous; because I don’t seek my own will, but the will of my Father who sent me.

[31] “If I testify about myself, my witness is not valid.

...

[36] But the testimony which I have is greater than that of Yochanan, for the works which the Father gave me to accomplish, the very works that I do, testify about me, that the Father has sent me.

[37] The Father himself, who sent me, has testified about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his form.

[38] You don’t have his word living in you; because you don’t believe him whom he sent.

...

[43] I have come in my Father’s name, and you don’t receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him.

[44] How can you believe, who receive glory from one another, and you don’t seek the glory that comes from the only God?

It's extremely clear that Jesus did not agree with the accusation that he was making himself equal with God and corrected the Judeans. It's incomprehensible that anybody can get anything but that the Father is senior to Jesus from these words of Jesus. What do trinitarians say about these words of Jesus? Do they just ignore them?

The bold part of verse 37 is addressed to people like Gibs. The Judeans were looking at Jesus. They saw him. If Jesus had been God, they would have seen God. So, how does one reconcile this with:

Quote:

WEBME: John 14:9. Yeshua said to him, “Have I been with you such a long time, and do you not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How do you say, ‘Show us the Father?’

Obviously they can't both literally be true. That means one is figurative speech, maybe both. Can the bold part of John 5:37 be figurative? No. Can the bold part of John 14:9 be figurative? Oh yes. Problem solved.

The above paragraph is indicative of the problems, as far as clarity is concerned, of human language. I used "relationships" in the title because there can be many relationships: hierarchical, social, family, size, age and more. If you want a totally unambiguous language you'll have to look at programming languages. They've got no figurative speech, everything is literal and one word means just one thing. They have an unforgiving tie between syntax and semantics. No wonder computers are in charge of so much.

We also see that Jesus talks of himself not as God, but as "the glory that comes from the only God."

The case against the trinity is overwhelmingly stronger than the case for it.

[Dr. Waite]

John:

In reference to Philippians 2:6 you state:

Quote:

The verse plainly tells us that Christ was in the form of God. "Form" means that Christ was actually God. It doesn't mean Christ merely appeared to be God but was not really God. Notice that it also says that Christ took the form of a human being, by which it means that Christ was really a human. It isn't saying Christ merely appeared to be human but was not actually human.

But, Christ was NOT "actually God" in the sense that the Father is "God". We need to compare scripture with scripture.

Look at Hebrews chapter 1.

Quote:

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Quote:

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

The Father who is the "only true God" (John 17:3)

1. was NOT appointed heir of all things.

2. was NOT in the express image of any other person or being

3. was NOT made so much better that the angels

4. DID NOT by inheritance obtain a more excellent name than the angels.

5. DOES NOT have another God who he calls "my God" (see Revelation 3:12).

Hebrews 1:2 tells us that Christ was the Son of the Father when the worlds were made. How can Christ be the express image of the Father's person, if the Father and the Son are two originals?

[epaminondas]

Dr Waite,

Sorry to take so long to respond. This is in reply to Ellen White's description of her illness. We really don't have enough to come to definite conclusions. E.g., she was supposed to be in a coma for three weeks. Without fluid replacement one would be dead in two weeks - much less if one loses much fluid. Was she in a total coma? Did she take in food and fluids? One can quite easily last three weeks without food. Where was she looked after? Home or hospital? Did she have a drip? Did they even have IV fluid replacement at that time? Did she have a naso-gastric tube with fluid replacement? Questions, no answers.

Her flat nose may be due to a septal heamatoma or abscess. Those would fit in with the stone to the nose. A side view will tell, but I can't find side view images. So, in the end I just don't know.

[Gerr]

Quote:

The fact that there is disagreement over a piece of writing-- or a subject-- doesn't mean that the writer (or the Bible) is not clear.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If the Bible were clear on everything everyone would have believed the same. Why so many denominations? Most of them really believe they go by the Bible.

Gibs: I am with you, too many skim over the Word and read it for what they want to believe or been taught of men. Each verse must be "absorbed" in the context of the matter being presented but is not. The context in most cases is ignore

There are several reasons why people looking at a clear text can arrive at different interpretations.

1. We all look through glasses that are colored by our backgrounds and experiences. That goes for the Bible writers as well. It is no accident that we have four gospels.

2. Satan is very successful in confusing and misleading people.

3. Human perversity. There are many examples to this. What could be clearer than the Bible's statement that the Second Advent will be the noisiest event in human history and yet the most popular doctrine in Christendom today is that He will come in secret! What could be clearer than the command to "Remember the Sabbath day...." and that the Sabbath is the 7th day of the week, yet the majority of Christians choose to honor the first day?

And what could be more explicit doctrine than that the Bible speaks of one God and yet clearly portrays that the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God?

Far from proving your point, 2 of your 3 proof texts actually establishes the divinity of Christ. Here is what one commentary has to say about Jn 17:3:

“The very juxtaposition here of Jesus Christ with the Father is a proof, by implication, of our Lord’s Godhead. The knowledge of God and a creature could not be eternal life, and such an association of the one with the other would be inconceivable” [ALFORD].

Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., & Brown, D. (1997). Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (Jn 17:3). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

The second clearly states that Jesus IS LORD, and in cooperation with the Father, IS Creator.

You guys can deny all you want, but there is no getting around to the fact that the Bible speaks of one God and yet describes three persons.

[Gerr]

The Father who is the "only true God" (John 17:3)

Didn't you leave out a VERY important part of the text? ESV | ýJn 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, AND Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

Far from proving your point, it establishes the divinity of Christ.

Quote:

Hebrews 1:2 tells us that Christ was the Son of the Father when the worlds were made. How can Christ be the express image of the Father's person, if the Father and the Son are two originals?

So how do you understand the text?

[Dr. Waite]

Didn't you leave out a VERY important part of the text? ESV | ýJn 17:3 "And this is eternal life' date=' that they know you the only true God, AND Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

Far from proving your point, it establishes the divinity of Christ.

Quote:

Hebrews 1:2 tells us that Christ was the Son of the Father when the worlds were made. How can Christ be the express image of the Father's person, if the Father and the Son are two originals? [/quote']

So how do you understand the text?

I understand the text in connection with Proverbs 8:24-25:

"When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:"

I believe it is talking about Christ, the wisdom of the only true God and the Son of the only true God. Christ is divine because He is the Son of the "only true God"

Many do not see the meaning of this text because they believe it was "wisdom" that was brought forth and not the Son of the "only true God". Apparently according to them there was a time when the "only true God" did not have wisdom.

[Gibs]

But Gerry, the fact of the matter is the Deity in Christ was the fullness of the Father in Him. Yes His Humanity covered The Deity the Father in Him, not another God, but the one and only True God was in Him reconcilling the world unto Himself. 2 Cor 5:19!

Our Heavenly Father is contacted by going through Jesus Christ to His Throne of Grace,

He comes to us by Spirit, that is what He is, and draws us to Jesus!

He came to us in Jesus Christ, Emmanuel, God the Father with us, as in Jesus His Fullness dwelt. He is now with all by Spirit, The comforter, same as Christ with us.

And that is real, as the real you and I are spirit also dwelling in a body of flesh and bones.

Our Father gave of Himself, plus He gave us His Son born of Mary, and then His Son gave all, His life of man and shed His innocent Blood in our behalf. The Father experienced it all, as He was in Him, felt all the anguish and pain, felt all the insults and all, and yet loved us, knowing us and being there through it ALL!

An Unfathomable price was paid for man's redeeption, a cost so high we cannot comphrehend!

How on earth can we not love Him with all our hearts and souls?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Didn't you leave out a VERY important part of the text? ESV |Jn 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, AND Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

You are alone in bringing up this and theory. This is a direct translation:

Quote:

Diaglott: John 17:3. This and is the age-lasting life, that they might know (thee the only true God), and (whom thou hast sent Jesus Anointed).

Word order is important. If John wanted to say something else he would have said something like:

This is eternal life, that they might know thee and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent, the only true God. As you know, John did not say this. Moreover, John was clear in this. Trinitarians could not even bend this verse, which is a thorn in their flesh, to declare Jesus God.

Furthermore, in the Greek "true" is an adjective, accusative, male, singular indicating it goes with only one of the two following nouns.

No-one else uses your argument. Not one of the many trinitarians on this forum picked it up and ran with it. I looked at trinitarian replies to John 17:3 on the web. I found none that used your "and" argument. Even the trinitarians find your argument far-fetched.

I know your first language may be Tagalog, which may explain you not understanding that sentence in English. You don't have to trust me, ask around; any honest person will tell you John 17:3 states that the Father is "the only true God."

How is it possible for the Father to be the only true God, while at the same time the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well?

[epaminondas]

Inescapable consequence of Jesus being God

If Jesus were God then Mary would have been the Mother of God.

If Mary now is declared the Mother of God there is a good case to be made to claim divinity for her, too.

Is this where you want to go?

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Our Father gave of Himself, plus He gave us His Son born of Mary,

I'm confused. In other posts you claim the Father and the Son are really one and the same - one with two names, so to speak. That means, among others, that:

• The Father was his own father
• The Father was his own son
• The Son was his own father
• The Son was his own son

You'll need powerful magic to get out of this. Is this time for extended again?

In the above quote you also speak as if the Father and the Son are two entities. Which is it?

[epaminondas]

Quote:

“The very juxtaposition here of Jesus Christ with the Father is a proof, by implication, of our Lord’s Godhead. The knowledge of God and a creature could not be eternal life, and such an association of the one with the other would be inconceivable” [ALFORD].

What absolute nonsense. Does just the fact that Jesus and the Father are in the same sentence make Jesus God? There are a great many sentences in the Bible where God is mentioned "in juxtaposition" (meaning next to) with others. Does this make Moses or Abraham or many others God? And why could the knowledge (clearly meaning more than just knowing about - Satan knows about, too) of God and a created creature, if that created creature paid the price for humanity's sin and is the only gateway to God, not be enough to assure eternal life?

This Alford fellow must have smoked powerful weed. One can see why he did theology.

[Gibs]

No epaminondas, that is double talk you are laying, I do not promote such ideas as you state.

"•The Father was his own father

•The Father was his own son

•The Son was his own father

•The Son was his own son"

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The Father is the Head! He extended of Himself, HIS Redeemer before Bethlehem, because He in His foreknowledge knew sin would rise up, and so of Himself He sent Him forth.

God is Spirit, is this impossible with Him?

The Redeemer Yahweh of Hosts then was to do the creation Hosts and all. Note His Name, Yahweh and of Hosts as He created them. (Only ONE Yahweh!)

Now at Bethlehem He gave to us His Redeemer then in Jesus Christ, to make Him our Redeemer. He could not come among us any other way, we would have been consumed, presto! The one and only Deity Covered with humanity, God, yes the Father with us in Him! Yes Emmanuel, God with us! One God and Father of all! One substance, not two!

"With what firmness and power he uttered these words. The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance , possessing the same attributes. The Jews understood his meaning, there was no reason why they should misunderstand, and they took up stones to stone him. Jesus looked upon them calmly and unshrinkingly, and said, "Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of these works do ye stone me?" {ST, November 27, 1893 par. 5}

If the Father, Yahweh King of Israel wasn't in Christ is ALL fullness then He wasn't God with us. But He was!

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

He the Redeemer even speaks as the Father did the most but had not made the earth, then He did, the Redeemer who was the extension of Himself.

Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Pr 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Pr 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

Pr 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

There is but one Holy Spirit which is God and so Christ in you is the Father in you, as the Father is in Christ, fully!

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 10:30 I and my father are one! Not two or three! the context proves it,

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

You cannot pluck them from Jesus hand not more than the Father's and now Jesus tell you why! Because,

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[o2bwise]

Hi,

Just a quickie...

Ted, if you are still around, you answered that God is three persons, but you wanted to not say the Son has independence of consciousness.

Now, appreciating that the only purpose of language is to convey meaning, can you clarify?

What is it about independence of consciousness such that you do not want to say Jesus has it? When you say one God is composed of three persons, how exactly do you define the word PERSON? If you are not a tri-theist, how would you differentiate THEIR definition of person from your own? By this I mean where one is careful to clarify how one is not a tri-theist, rather a trinitarian?

Blessings,

Tony

[o2bwise]

I am curious how many agree with the following:

1. A foundational confession of a Christian is "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God!"

2. This confession refers to Christ's literal, actual relationship to the Father before creation took place.

3. Christ is divine as a natural consequence of being the only begotten Son of God, in much the same way I am human as a natural consequence of being the son of humans.

4. One true God refers to Father only where TRUE carries the meaning ORIGINAL, such as in Hebrews 8:2.

5. Thus, the confession of oneness is NOT a confession of one theos (God), rather a confession of one original God - mono-alesthinos-theos.

6. I am a man, but I am not the one true man. This can be used as a parallel explanation for the Son of God. Jesus is God and is not the one true God as sons cannot be "the original."

7. The Godhead is composed of the one true God, the Father, and His only begotten Son and these are the two who counseled and likely who make up the elohim - two separate beings - the one true God and the divine Son whom He begat and whom He sent into this world where at the incarnation the Son of God also became the son of man.

Blessings,

Tony

[o2bwise]

Quote:

From:

http://www.smyrna.org/Books/God_on_Trial/Gods_Love_on_Trial_Non_Booklet.pdf

Through the power and influence of the Roman Emperor, Constantine, the minority “orthodox party” succeeded in compelling all to sign their creed or be banished. Thus the new view that Christ was not literally begotten of the Father arose and was accepted as truth in 325 AD at the Council of Nicaea.

Shortly after this council, one astonished Christian wrote:

“We have never heard, my Lord, of two beings unbegotten, nor of one divided into two; nor have we learnt or believed that He could suffer any thing corporeal [or bodily], but that there is one unbegotten, and another truly from Him,... We believe not only that [the Son’s] origin cannot be explained in words, but that it cannot be comprehended,...”

(Letter written by Eusebius of Nicomedia as found in An Historical View of the Council of Nice, by Isaac Boyle, page 41. This book was included in Baker Book House’s edition of Eusebius’ Ecclesiastical History.

[Gordon1]

Well put Tony. Move to the front of the class.

EGW agreed with the same. Christ was God's Dear Son before creation.

[o2bwise]

Thank you, Gordon!

It amazes me that perhaps the least believed doctrine of the Godhead is that belief that confesses Christ to be the Son of the Living God in a literal sense.

Blessings,

Tony

[Gibs]

Tritheist, trinty one god in 3 persons won't sail, it sinks when scripture is taken as it reads.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Of course Jesus Christ is the Son of God born of Mary, no one is contending that here!

But the fact remains He was and is God because the Father is in Him Fully! Yes ye all, God with us. Emmanuel means God with us! Who only is God? Answer, Yahweh was in Him!

The one and only person God, Yahweh dwells in Fully is Jesus Christ. There is not another person involved! The Holy Spirit is what Jesus declares His Father to be, and let me tell you this, Jesus said it and I for one believe it!

This is not imposible with God who is Spirit of whom nothing is imposible to Him!

Folks, please read the Bible, preferably the KJV and quit listening to theologians who twist and make a lie of plain thus saith the Lord statements!

For truth, go to His Word, it is the Fountain and Foundation for all truth wisdom and understaning!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gordon1]

It amazes me that perhaps the least believed doctrine of the Godhead is that belief that confesses Christ to be the Son of the Living God in a literal sense.

It's a testimony to Satan's deceptive power. We jest of this too freely.

Ecumenism will pull in nearly the whole world.

"Too late they see that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment is the seal of the living God..."

"Those who derided His claim to be the Son of God are speechless now."

1911 Great Controversy 640-643.

[Gerr]

You can play that one string of yours, Gibs, but you still acknowledge that it is playing 3 different tunes! One God playing 3 different roles. You just refuse to acknowledge these are 3 different persons.

[phkrause]

So I ask who is God talking to here:

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, in the likeness of ourselves; and let them rule over the fish in the sea, the birds in the air, the animals, and over all the earth, and over every crawling creature that crawls on the earth." 27 So God created humankind in his own image; in the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. 28 God blessed them: God said to them, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea, the birds in the air and every living creature that crawls on the earth."

Who is God talking to? Himself? to his Father? his Son? From all or most Theologians the Son of the Godhead is the creator! Who would be Jesus Christ himself! So I ask who is the Creator of the earth and mankind talking to?????

[Gerr]

ESV | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ý2 He was in the beginning with God. ý3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

ESV | ýJn 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

But the life of Christ was unborrowed. No one can take this life from Him. "I lay it down of myself" (John 10: 18), He said. In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ.

White, E. G. (1958). Selected Messages From the Writings of Ellen G. White, Book 1 (296–297). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

[Gordon1]

Peter K. the matter is simple. God the Father (the Ancient of Days) is speaking to His Son in Genesis 1:27.

...From the very first page of the original Great Controversy edition c.1858 - (Spiritual Gifts Vol 1):

"And I saw that when GOD said to His SON,

Let us make man in our image, Satan was jealous of JESUS." [Capitals in original]

The Father created through the Son:

"..God, who created all things by Jesus Christ." (Ephesians 3:9)

"...his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds." (Hebrews 1:2)

"The Father wrought by His Son in the creation of all heavenly beings." Patriarchs & Prophets second page.

[Gordon1]

Yes Gerry, man can possess life, original, unborrowed, underived, just as you have quoted.

"This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ.

He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as His personal Saviour."

1 Selected Messages 296-7.