The Trinity?

[o2bwise]

Well, Gibs, if I insist on your logic, Jesus said His word is spirit and therefore Jesus' words are God as well.

The logical fallacy is that of universal application, in reverse.

Such as: rocks are red.

That there dog is red.

Therefore that there dog ia a rock.

It's a fallacy, Gibs.

It doesn't require what you contend to NOT be true, but on its own it also cannot require that it is true.

Blessings,

Tony

[Gibs]

The Fallacy for sure is the trinity as scripture does not uphold it from beginning to end.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Waite]

The Fallacy for sure is the trinity as scripture does not uphold it from beginning to end.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

John 17:3 should be added to the list. Jesus Christ said that his Father who is one person is the "only true God" and there is only one Lord. How much clearer could have Jesus said who the "only true God" is?

[Gibs]

Dr. Waite, John 17:3 is a statement that can't be controverted, thanks for the heads up,

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Where did Ellen White say that the Father is the first person of the godhead? Or, that the Son is the second person of the godhead?

[Dr. Waite]

JOEB:

Thank you for answering the first question.

Please answer the second question:

Where in the Bible does it say that the Father is the first person of the godhead? or, the Son is the second person of the godhead? or, the holy spirit is the third person of the godhead?

Ellen White states:

Quote:

But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines, and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority,-- not one or all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord" in its support. {GC88 595.1}

Can we base a doctrine or precept on a "Thus saith the Lord" which only comes from Ellen White?

[Gibs]

She called them 3 persons but scripture stands for one only. If there was 3 persons, we would have 3 Gods, and scripture is adamant that the numeral is 1 or one spelled out.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. ( note! "THE ONLY TRUE GOD". )

Hear Jesus,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Jesus says that is what God is, Spirit, not another person.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So we see Christ was not another God but that God the Father was in Him, all the fullness.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one. ( one here is the numeral 1 )

Yes Jesus the man that was prepared that the Father Redeemer would come and dwell in.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

This one is a numeral one 1.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

heis hice

(including the neuter (etc.) hen); a primary numeral; one:--a(-n, -ny, certain), + abundantly, man, one (another), only, other, some.

We have "1 Father God" but not 1 divine Person who is God.

Remember that the Bible also refers to Christ as "eternal Father." (It literally means "Father of eternity.")

The same Greek word is used to describe Christ and the Father as "one" as is used of Christ's followers as "one."

"I and the Father are one" [Gk hen, Strong's 1520] {John 10: 30}.

Jesus prayed for unity: "that they may all be one [Gk hen, Strong's 1520] , just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. {John 17: 21}

We know that in those cases, "one" cannot possibly refer to the mathematical "1."

Christ and the Father are "one" in the sense that they are of one (or the same) mind, character, and goal. That's in the same sense that the followers of Christ are to be "one." God is not asking us to give up our individuality or distictiveness.

So in both cases, there are two or more persons who are "one"-- that is, a unity. God, then, is not "one" in the sense of being a single Person but "one" in unity. See 8 T 269, where Ellen White says that God and Christ are one in the same sense that the disciples of Christ are to be one.

Both the Hebrew and the Greek allow for this.

Also, saying that "there is one God" {Rom 3: 30} simply means that there is not one God for the Jew and another God for the Gentiles. We all have one and the same God. The name of that same God, of course, is Yahweh. Compare Matt 28: 19.

[John317]

Both trinitarians and unitarians have claimed Ellen White on this thread. That can only mean one thing: she did not express herself clearly on this topic, most likely because she said things which can be interpreted both ways. So, neither the trinitarians nor the unitarians can claim her.

You could make the same argument about the Bible, because both anti-Trinitarians and Trinitarians use the Bible in support of their views, do they not?

[John317]

Where did Ellen White say that the Father is the first person of the godhead? Or, that the Son is the second person of the godhead?

Since she says that the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Godhead-- and since she says that the Godhead consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit-- it can only mean that there must be a First and a Second Person of the Godhead.

She also says clearly that the Father is the fullness of the Godhead and that Christ is the fullness of the Godhead. She says the same concerning the Holy Spirit. See Ev. 616-617.

You can't possibly have "THE THIRD person of the Godhead" without having also the first and the second person of the Godhead.

[John317]

She called them 3 persons but scripture stands for one only. If there was 3 persons, we would have 3 Gods, and scripture is adamant that the numeral is 1 or one spelled out.

Please see post #616570.

The Bible never refers to "Gods" but to "God." Yet the Scriptures make it abundantly clear that this one God is not a single person but three divine Persons in a single Godhead, all three of whom are Deity.

[John317]

Ellen White states:

Quote:

But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines, and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority,-- not one or all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord" in its support. {GC88 595.1}

Can we base a doctrine or precept on a "Thus saith the Lord" which only comes from Ellen White?

But the concept of the triune God does not just come from Ellen G. White, although she does indeed teach it. It is based firmly on the Bible. Ellen White is in complete harmony with Scripture. This biblical concept of the Trinity has been shown over and over again, and if necessary we will show it yet again from Scripture.

[John317]

o2bwise Yes, the Holy Spirit is God, that is what Jesus said, not me.

You have this right: The Holy Spirit is God, that is, the Holy Spirit is Deity, the Third Person of the Godhead. But the Holy Spirit is not the Father. And the Holy Spirit is not Jesus Christ. Yet as the Bible shows many times, the Holy Spirit is a Person, distinct from both Father and Son.

There are many instances where it makes utterly no sense at all to say that the Holy Spirit is the same as the Father.

For instance:

Acts 2:33

"Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing."

If the Holy Spirit is one and the same as the Father, this text should be able to be worded in this way:

"...having received from the Father the promise of the Father..."

Or:

John 14:16-17

"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, [17] even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you."

Is this "another Helper" the Father?

If the "Helper" is the Father, it should then make sense if it were to read this way:

"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you the Father, to be with you forever, even the Father of truth...."

On the other hand, if the Holy Spirit and Christ are one and the same person, it should make sense if it were written this way:

"And I will ask the Father, and he will give Me to you, to be with you forever, even the Christ of truth, whom the world cannot receive..."

But of course, none of those make a bit of sense, and for the reason that the Holy Spirit is not the Father, nor is it the Son. The Holy Spirit is the Third PERSON of the eternal Godhead. The eternal Godhead does not change. Heb 13: 8; 1: 12; James 1: 17; Malachi 3: 6.

[John317]

How about the fact that Ellen White distinctly and clearly says there are 3 persons in the Godhead?

Quote:

There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.Evangelism, 615.

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the

Holy Spirit gave themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption.Counsels

on Health, 222.

Those who proclaim the third angels message must put on the whole armor of

God, that they may stand boldly at their post, in the face of detraction and falsehood,

fighting the good fight of faith, resisting the enemy with the word, It is written. Keep

yourselves where the three great powers of heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy

Spirit, can be your efficiency. These powers work with the one who gives himself

unreservedly to God. The strength of heaven is at the command of God's believing

ones. The man who takes God as his trust is barricaded by an impregnable wall.The

Southern Watchman, February 23, 1904, p. 122.

Our sanctification is the work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is the

fulfilment of the covenant that God has made with those who bind themselves up with

Him, to stand with Him, with His Son, and with His Spirit in holy fellowship. Have

you been born again? Have you become a new being in Christ Jesus? Then co-operate

with the three great powers of heaven who are working in your behalf. Doing this you

will reveal to the world the principles of righteousness.The Signs of the Times, June

19, 1901.

The eternal heavenly dignitaries God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit arming

them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, ... would advance with them to the

work and convince the world of sin.Evangelism, 616.

We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,the Father, the

Son, and the Holy Ghost,and these powers will work through us, making us workers

together with God.Evangelism, 617.

Those who are baptized in the threefold name of the Father, the Son, and the

Holy Spirit, at the very entrance of their Christian life declare publicly that they have

forsaken the service of Satan and have become members of the royal family, children

of the heavenly King.Testimonies for the Church 6:91.

These can all be found in one place. SDA Bible Commentaries vol 7a pp. 441,442

X10

Excellent.

Now if the reader accepts Ellen White's prophetic ministry, these quotes should be enough to convince him that she taught the concept of the Trinity, although she never used the word "Trinity." In that way, she is the same as the Bible-- no word "Trinity," yet the concept is clearly taught.

[John317]

Why did I find it so uncomfortable to pray to the Holy Spirit if the HS is a person?

That's a completely subjective "test" and therefore cannot be depended on for truth. Whether we feel good or bad when doing something is not the test of truth.

The test is what does the Bible teach? And secondarily, what does the Spirit of prophecy teach?

Here is what Ellen White said:

Quote:

Here is where the work of the Holy Ghost comes in, after your baptism. You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life--to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling. You are to reveal that you are dead to sin; your life is hid with Christ in God. Hidden "with Christ in God,"--wonderful transformation. This is a most precious promise. When I feel oppressed, and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon the three great Worthies, and say; You know I cannot do this work in my own strength. You must work in me, and by me and through me, sanctifying my tongue, sanctifying my spirit, sanctifying my words, and bringing me into a position where my spirit shall be susceptible to the movings of the Holy Spirit of God upon my mind and character.

And this is the prayer that every one of us may offer. . . . {7MR 267, 268}

Ellen White also praised all three of the holiest beings in heaven. She often sang, and encouraged others to sing, "Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Amen."

Whether we realize it or not, since the Godhead is One, when we pray to God, we are actually praying to all three of the holiest Beings in heaven, the three great Worthies. They work together in complete unity and harmony.

This is why we read these verses:

2 Cor. 13:14

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Jude 1:20-21

But you, beloved, build yourselves up in your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; [21] keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.

Matthew 28:19

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

NOTICE that these three have one name, which is Yahweh, i.e., Lord God.

[John317]

heis hice

(including the neuter (etc.) hen); a primary numeral; one:--a(-n, -ny, certain), + abundantly, man, one (another), only, other, some. See also 1527, 3367, 3391, 3762.

See Greek 1527

See Greek 3367

See Greek 3391

See Greek 3762

The only word that we're concerned with here is Strong's #1520-- hen-- because that is the word that's used in the texts about which we are talking: John 17: 21 and 10: 30.

Jesus prays that all His followers would be "hen" (one), and He also says that He and the Father are "hen" (One).

None of those others are relevant to the discussion.

But let's look at them, now that you brought them up:

Strongs 1527, eis kath eis, heis kath keis (one by one)

Strongs 3367, mhdeis, mhdemia, mhden (no one, nothing)

Strongs 3391, mia-- feminine of #1520 (one or first).

Strongs 3762, oudeis, not even one (man, woman, or thing), i.e., none, nobody, nothing.

[John317]

X10

[John317]

The Fallacy for sure is the trinity as scripture does not uphold it from beginning to end.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Since we know that Jesus Christ is God, and since we also know that the Holy Spirit is the One who inspired the prophets, it is certain that Isaiah 44: 8 is further proof that "God" is not a single person but is rather a single God. There is no God but Yahweh-- and He is Lord of all.

This is why when we are baptized, we are baptized in the NAME of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

[John317]

The Fallacy for sure is the trinity as scripture does not uphold it from beginning to end.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Yes, there is one God and Father of all, but let's not forget that the Bible also teaches that Christ also is above all and through all and in you all.

Everything the Bible says about the Father, it also says about the Son.

This is why John 1: 1 [last clause] says that the Word was like God, or as the NEB translates it, "What God was the Word was." Heb 1: 3 says that the Son is the perfect image of the Father's essence, or substance, or nature, or person. They are exactly alike in their nature and character. So Jesus could rightly say, "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father... I and my Father are One."

[John317]

The Fallacy for sure is the trinity as scripture does not uphold it from beginning to end.

...Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Actually, both those texts are further proof that Jesus Christ is God. There is no Savior except Yahweh [the Lord], yet the New Testament repeatedly refers to Jesus as Savior and Lord, not to mention "God."

In fact, the Bible says there is only one Lord, but then it calls both Jesus and the Father by that title. Both Jesus and the Father are Yahweh.

Jude 1:5 (ESV) and 1 Cor 10: 4 and 9 speak of Jesus Christ as the One who led the ancient Isrealites out of Egyptian slavery.

Jude 1:5

Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

Ellen White plainly says that Christ is Jehovah Immanuel, and she supports the ESV translation of Jude 1: 5. It was Christ whom the Israelites tempted, or tested, in the Wilderness. The Psalms says the people tested "God". Jesus is God. Titus 2: 13 calls Christ "our great God and Savior." The evidence is overwhelming to those who will accept it.

[John317]

John 17:3 should be added to the list. Jesus Christ said that his Father who is one person is the "only true God" and there is only one Lord. How much clearer could have Jesus said who the "only true God" is?

Is Jesus Christ denying His deity? Is He saying that He is a false god?

Christ is either true God or a false god. He cannot be both true and false at the same time.

What does Jesus say is true life?

It is to know the Father and Jesus Christ.

Can we know the Father alone, or apart from Christ? Absolutely not. Indeed we know nothing of God except through Christ, who is Himself Deity.

John 1:18

No one has ever seen God; the only God (or "the only Son"), who is at the Father's side, he has made him known (or "he has explained, or interpreted, him").

Therefore to know the true God is to know Christ. This can only be true because Christ Himself is God, of the same essence as the Father.

But let's not forget that Christ is talking here as a man, Jesus of Nazareth. He is not speaking as God Almighty.

The Father is "true God" in the sense that He is "pure God," whereas Christ is God PLUS man. He is fully God, yes, but He is also fully human. Jesus Christ is now and forever literally the Son of the Father. He is one of us-- our Elder Brother. He acknowledges the Father as His God. And so our Elder Brother points us not to Himself but to the Father.

[Gibs]

No John317, Jesus does not deny the Deity, the Father in Him, He knows very well the fullness of His Father dwells in Him.

Yes before Bethlehem as Yah of Hosts knew Yah the King face to face, as He was out of Him so He surely could declare Him.

Life was in Jesus because the Father was in Him, Fully. He told us,

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

None can come to the Father but by Him, the Redeemer, Mediator, the ladder from fallen man to the Throne in Heaven. The Father possessed, extended, procured Him of Himself for this purpose, to do creation, life forms and all and be the connection back to Him.

We cannot approach the Father otherwise. Christ is like perhaps a "telephone line" to God the Father of all, and all means all!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[o2bwise]

These discussions can be a real drag.

John317: if you can cite where you explained how the HS is a person when the Bible and Ellen White each say the counsel was made among TWO.

Thanks,

Tony

[Johann]

It is evident that "a certain kind of Bible understanding" leads to the Belief that the Ten Commandments are still applicable to mankind today, that the 7th day is the Sabbath, that the earth and all life on it was created in a literal 7 day week and that the Sabbath is on Saturday not Sunday. I t also leads to the understanding that Christ was born of a virgin and rose bodily from the dead and that man is not immortal.

How "instructive".

in Christ,

Bob

This is my understanding of Scripture as well, Bob. I am just examining why the way the anti-trinity people read the Bible also leads them with the same way of reading the Bible to teach that the ordination of women is just as bad as teaching the trinity as a doctrine.

[Gibs]

o2bwise, I don't understand that many can't see that the Father extended from Himself His and then our Redeemer. Yes the Father needed this Redeemer that as God in all His Glory could not do. Then He and the Redeemer gave Himself to us and the Father also gave us His Son Jesus Christ born of Mary that He came to us in. The one and only way it could be found that redemption of man could be accomplished.

The Redeemer of Himself was sent to do a Job, a big Job!

Just read 1 Cor 15:24-28, These verses have a profound understanding if you catch it. Please go slow and understanding when reading those!

This is who the council was between, Himself and Redeemer, introduced here by Isaiah,

This verse tells a lot if it is discerned,

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

You see the Father gave of Himself in giving us a Redeemer, of one substance, and the Redeemer since one of the Father, His name then is Yahweh of Hosts before Bethlehem and then He came in Christ Jesus and was Yahweh-Messiah, Saviour, Redeemer, Mediator.

Only God could do what He was sent to do, creation, forgive sins etc. Where He was limited was in overcoming the Devil, He had to do that taking no power but what we can have, a great liability and He came off victor and now we all can too, none, not one needs to fail!

Yes they are one, there is a separation in the fact the Redeemer could be with us where He in all His Glory would consume us who are of sin. Jesus when He comes back will come this time in full Glory of the Father. Truly the fullness of the Father was His and in Him when with as a man, Christ Jesus, the flesh covered the Divinity of the Father in Him.

Again I must state, there is no trinity! There is but one God and He only are we to worship. The worship of Jesus is to worship the Father, that is not robbery of Yahweh the Father.

Lu 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.