The Trinity?

[Gibs]

The scripture is clear, Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Then 1 Cor 15:24-28 cinches it, the Father when it all is complete, He then is ALL IN ALL again.

The Holy Spirit is not another God but is what God is, remember Jesus said,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

It won't be me to tell Him He don't know what He is talking about.

Jesus was not another God either, The Father in Him in ALL fullness dwelt.

When Jesus completes the task He was sent of His Father to do then and only then can the Father be ALL IN ALL AGAIN! And that time is getting so close now.

Yes God the Father was in Jesus Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.

So now all should know who their Redeemer is!

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Lu 10:23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:

Lu 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Yes, we are truly Blessed as we too are privileged to see it as they! Now we too know and understand and see!

Nothing is kept back from us, for the Son has revealed it all!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[epaminondas]

Originally Posted By: epaminondas

The above is what I know. I'm always ready to admit that I don't have the facts to come to a conclusion, unlike a trinitarian.

Besides your statement demonstrating your prejudices and evident lack of familiarity with many Trinitarians, shouldn't we follow the Golden Rule here?

Show me one trinitarian admitting that he doesn't know. They always know in minute detail what the writer meant with the most cryptic wording in contentious passages. And it's just their take that is valid. Other legitimate understandings are not even acknowledged. Clear passages nullifying essential trinitarian concepts are not dealt with and completely ignored, as if they're not in the Bible.

They turn Jesus into a devious figure who doesn't say in a straight-forward fashion what he means, but sneaks in claims to being god in allegories and indirect references. Is that the Jesus of the trinitarians?

How is it possible that, as the trinitarians say, there are so many indirect claims by Jesus to being god and indirect assertions from other Bible writers that Jesus is god without one direct claim or statement to the effect that Jesus is God? There are many direct statements that only the Father is God and Jesus is the Son of God. Why ignore them? It is clear that in the trinitarian world a cryptic, contentious passage carries more weight than a direct, clear passage. I am curious, why is this so?

As trinitarians completely ignore Biblical fact, preferring cryptic, contentious passages over straight-forward plain ones, there is no hope of ever convincing one of the truth regarding the trinity.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

So is He worthy of worship? Do you worship Jesus?

I'll bow down to Jesus, any day. But Jesus himself told us to pray to the Father; our Father who is in heaven...

[John317]

Quote:

So is He worthy of worship? Do you worship Jesus?

I'll bow down to Jesus, any day. But Jesus himself told us to pray to the Father; our Father who is in heaven...

There are prayers to Jesus in the New Testament, and it also shows Him being worshpped by every creature in the universe.

I agree that we should usually pray is to the Father in the name [authority] of the Son. That is not because Jesus is inferior to the Father, but rather it's because of the different work they do in the plan of redemption. The Father wills-- the Son executes the will of the Father by coming to the earth, living a perfect life and dying for the world-- and the Holy Spirit brings the work of Christ to fruition or completion.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

NIV84 |Php 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

This is a contentious passage expressed in very unclear wording. What is translated "grasped" really means seize. Follow the link. This is at least the third time I've said it on this thread and either included this link or copied and pasted the text. I am forced to conclude that trinitarians are slow learners.

Now you go and do away with direct assertions that only the Father is God (John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, etc.), that Jesus will, in the end, be subservient to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:28) and that Jesus follows the lead of the Father (John 5:19 onward).

While these passages which nullify essential concepts of the trinity are still standing, they will always be used against the trinity. You have to kill them. Surely there are reasons they are not to be trusted, as there are for the translations of passages used to advance the trinitarian doctrine. I have shown that repeatedly on this thread.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

There are prayers to Jesus in the New Testament

Where? The closest you'll get is Stephen as he's being stoned. And that's a single case. "Call on the name" does not mean pray. Speaking to Jesus or asking him questions, like when Jesus spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus, is not praying. One needs any conjugation in any tense or mode of the verb "to pray" or any declension of the noun "prayer" when one talks about praying. Anything else is just blah-blah-blah.

[Gerr]

Quote:

So is He worthy of worship? Do you worship Jesus?

I'll bow down to Jesus, any day. But Jesus himself told us to pray to the Father; our Father who is in heaven...

In the wilderness temptation, Jesus certainly directed worship only to God when the devil promised to give him the kingdoms of this world if He worshiped him. When John of the Revelation tried to worship the angel who was helping him, the angel reproved him and directed him to worship ONLY God.

Jesus NEVER refused worship. In fact we are commanded to worship Him. ESV | ýPhp 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, ý10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, ý11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

ESV | ýIs 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

ESV | ýPs 95:6 Oh come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before the LORD, our Maker!

Unless Jesus is fully God, the Father Himself would be guilty of promoting creature worship!

[epaminondas]

Raw data

This is something important that trinitarians don't know. Someone said something like the further your conclusion is from the raw data, the more likely it is that you are wrong.

The raw data in this case is a Biblical statement. If one's conclusion is exactly the same as a clear Biblical statement, one cannot be wrong. Recall the only true God statement in John 17:3.

If, however, one's conclusion utilizes words far different from the text in the Bible, or the text is unclear or contentious, then the chances of being right are far less.

Everyone will do well to keep this in mind, not only when it comes to the Bible.

[Gerr]

And the data I just presented above your post are?????

[epaminondas]

In the wilderness temptation, Jesus certainly directed worship only to God when the devil promised to give him the kingdoms of this world if He worshiped him. When John of the Revelation tried to worship the angel who was helping him, the angel reproved him and directed him to worship ONLY God.

Jesus NEVER refused worship. In fact we are commanded to worship Him. ESV | Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

ESV | Is 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

ESV | Ps 95:6 Oh come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before the LORD, our Maker!

Unless Jesus is fully God, the Father Himself would be guilty of promoting creature worship!

I'm getting so tired... I said I'll bow down to Jesus. If that is worship, I'll worship him. But there is no injunction to pray to Jesus.

The word Lord in Phil 2:9 means somebody with authority.

There is no way to say for sure that Ps 95:6 does not refer to the Father.

Nowhere in the Bible is there a clear reference to Jesus as "Father." Therefore many feel Is 9:6 is not a reference to Jesus. It doesn't say who it refers to. Ask Isaiah. I don't know. What I do know is that Jesus said the Father is the only true God and Paul said for us there is only one God, the Father, and Jesus said the Father is greater than him (Jesus) and Paul said that in the end Jesus will be under the Father, etc., etc.

Is the word of Jesus not good enough for you? Go argue with Jesus. Tell him you don't believe John 17:3.

[epaminondas]

And the data I just presented above your post are?????

You don't understand these things, do you? In how many cases were your conclusions verbatim the same as the passages you quoted?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And the data I just presented above your post are?????

You don't understand these things, do you? In how many cases were your conclusions verbatim the same as the passages you quoted?

Biblical data:

1. Per angels & Jesus - worship God only.

2. Per God Himself - worship Jesus.

3. Per Scripture - Jesus is Creator.

4. Per psalmist - ESV | ýPs 95:6 Oh come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before the LORD, our Maker!

5. ESV | ‎Is 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

There can be no other conclusion in my mind than that Jesus IS fully God.

[Gerr]

Nowhere in the Bible is there a clear reference to Jesus as "Father." Therefore many feel Is 9:6 is not a reference to Jesus. It doesn't say who it refers to. Ask Isaiah. I don't know. What I do know is that Jesus said the Father is the only true God and Paul said for us there is only one God, the Father, and Jesus said the Father is greater than him (Jesus) and Paul said that in the end Jesus will be under the Father, etc., etc.

Is the word of Jesus not good enough for you? Go argue with Jesus. Tell him you don't believe John 17:3.

"Unto us a child is born, unto us a child is given". I'd like to see one reference of any scholar who does not understand Isa 9:5-6 as referring to the Messiah. Christ can rightfully called "Father" also because He IS the Creator. That's why in the genealogy of Jesus, Adam is called, "son of God."

[Gordon1]

God the Father created all things through His Son Christ Jesus.

Jesus is our everlasting father. He will always be our father.

Jesus is not God the Father.

[Gibs]

Jesus the man the Father dwelt in was not the Father. But the Father being in Him in all fullness made Him God the Father with us.

Now the day is coming that when Jesus has the task He is sent forth to do the vestment of the Father in Him is returned that God the Father will finally once again be ALL IN ALL! 1 Cor 15:28.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gordon1]

Both Father and Son will be present in heaven as individual beings.

[Gibs]

They are now, yes, but the day will come Jesus will be our King here on earth as the Prince of the Father and without the Deity of the fulness of the Father in Him. Remember that soon the Father will become ALL IN ALL AGAIN!

The second person Is Jesus the man with the Father fully in Him and never two Gods are present at any time!

He then of course can be in Heaven as He wishes, but no more the Father's equal as the fulness of the extended Deity is returned to the Father.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

He will be somewhat greater than we or the first Adam I would think because He is not totally human as His Father is God born of Mary a human.

These verses say a lot, very profound! Must be absorbed!

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

( Will still be reigning till all He is sent to do is accomplished! )

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gordon1]

Gibs, I believe All in All refers to the completion of reconciliation - the final restoration when there is no longer any separation between Father, Son or the redeemed.

Heaven's return to order, harmony and perfect subjection to the government of God.

But at present Christ stands at the Father's right hand as Advocate/Mediator.

The Son of God was subject to the Father before creation, and will be subject to the Father in the final restoration, as you have quoted from 1 Cor. 15:28.

[Gibs]

The text of 1 Cor 15:24 cannot be denied! It cinches the fact the Deity in Christ is the Father extended for the purpose of Redeemer!

And so wonder of wonders, and so Christ in you is the Father also! Read,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

God the Father created all things through His Son Christ Jesus.

Jesus is our everlasting father. He will always be our father.

Jesus is not God the Father.

So, how do you understand (Is 9:5-6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 (electronic ed. of the 1769 edition of the 1611 Authorized Version.) . Bellingham WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

[Gibs]

"The Mighty God, the everlasting Father"

Yes absolutely yes as the Father was in Him Fully!

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

The Father is the Head, fully we are told He was in Jesus Christ and then Jesus tells us,

Joh 10:30, I and my Father are one!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[epaminondas]

The text of 1 Cor 15:24 cannot be denied! It cinches the fact the Deity in Christ is the Father extended for the purpose of Redeemer!

And so wonder of wonders, and so Christ in you is the Father also! Read,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Ah, the magic word, extended. What exactly does it mean. Dictionary.com has quite a prosaic meaning keeping the object that is extended as a single object, not a Father in heaven and a Son down here on Earth.

[epaminondas]

Biblical data:

1. Per angels & Jesus - worship God only.

2. Per God Himself - worship Jesus.

3. Per Scripture - Jesus is Creator.

4. Per psalmist - ESV | ýPs 95:6 Oh come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before the LORD, our Maker!

5. ESV | ‎Is 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

There can be no other conclusion in my mind than that Jesus IS fully God.

Do it like this:

Biblical data: I Corinthians 8:6. yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Yeshua the Messiah, through whom are all things, and we live through him.

Assertion: There is one God, the Father.

Biblical data: I Corinthians 15:28. When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.

Assertion: The Son is subjected to the Father.

You get my drift?

And you haven't dealt with any of the passages I quoted yet. Like Elton John, they're still standing, making nonsense of your assertions.

[epaminondas]

"Unto us a child is born, unto us a child is given". I'd like to see one reference of any scholar who does not understand Isa 9:5-6 as referring to the Messiah. Christ can rightfully called "Father" also because He IS the Creator. That's why in the genealogy of Jesus, Adam is called, "son of God."

[epaminondas]

God the Father created all things through His Son Christ Jesus.

Jesus is our everlasting father. He will always be our father.

Jesus is not God the Father.