The Trinity?

[epaminondas]

Quote:

The Son of God was subject to the Father before creation, and will be subject to the Father in the final restoration, as you have quoted from 1 Cor. 15:28.

Careful, you're going to lose your party membership. Equality is the name of the game.

[o2bwise]

Hey Gordon,

Quote:

Gordon:

God the Father created all things through His Son Christ Jesus.

Jesus is our everlasting father. He will always be our father.

Jesus is not God the Father.

Good stuff - thanks!

Blessings,

Tony

[o2bwise]

Hi epaminondas,

Thanks for discussing with me. Say, I wrote this earlier and it is most definitely relevant to a couple of your posts.

Blessings,

Tony

Quote:

No, you do not understand my concept.

By creation process, I refer to HOW it operates in the created realm. And so beget while being a birthing process is a creation process when the event takes place in the created realm and is NOT a creation process when it takes place in the divine realm. In the divine realm, it is a DIVINE process.

THAT is the point of my response to Gerry.

I will not speculate on how a divine process works. I just believe.

I do not take HOW the process works in the created realm and assign that HOW to the divine. I have no problem taking the WHAT and applying it to both because we are told that the WHAT happened.

If you were to understand the concept I am trying to express, there is NO VENUE for discussing HOW the process operates in creation (with any limitations it may have) and than applying that HOW to the divine.

That to me is idolatry. It is right in that place.

It's like another noter said. Eve came from Adam's rib. The noter was not concerned with HOW. He just believed. Because it was God who orchestrated it.

It is in the HOW Ted.

When someone asks HOW it is God could beget (read: the WHAT) a Son without a mother involved (read: the HOW), he has gone where I will not.

He left the what, looked at the how in the created realm and thought to assign the how to the divine.

[epaminondas]

About trinitarians

About who is God, trinitarians assert the following:

• The Father is God
• Jesus is God
• The Holy Spirit is God

They immediately ran into trouble for they had three gods. They didn't want to be called polytheists. Everyone knows that 1god + 1god + 1god = 3gods. What to do? We'll call in spin doctor Athanasius. What did Athanasius do? He said, no, 1god + 1god + 1god = 1god. Now everyone knows this is absolute nonsense. But Athanasius is ready - he invokes magic. "It's beyond our understanding," he says. "A mystery of divinity." Trinitarians were onto this like mud on a pig. They waded in with catch phrases like "unity in trinty" and "trinity in unity" and confusing words like "it's the one of unity, not the number one." They also tried bad math: "Father Smith and Mother Smith and Johnny Smith together equals one Smith family." Obviously, a family is not a person, it's a composite data type consisting of a number of persons. We can't get away from the three. And in any case, the trintiarians didn't claim their trinity added up to a family of gods. Most people couldn't care less and let it ride.

Nobody disputed that the Father was God, so the trinitarians didn't have to prove that. That was a stroke of luck for them. All the Biblical passages saying the Father is God say He is the only God.

Quote:

WEBME: Ephesians 4:6. one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all.

Now they could safely ignore these passages.

How to assert that Jesus is God? Jesus never claimed to be god. "Oh, yes, he did," the trintarians say. The trick is to see through the words to the claim inside. So they find idiomatic expressions like

Quote:

WEBME: John 10:30. I and the Father are one.”

and read them in a strange literal way. If John 10:30 is literal it would mean the Father and Jesus are one and the same entity. They also find passages which have alternative translations and bend them, like the 'I am' passage. They are really very creative in their explanations as to why something that doesn't look like a claim to godhood, is actually one. What they do, is make Jesus a devious person sneaking in indirect claims to godhood, but not having the guts to come straight out and say, I am God.

Of course, there are passages by other writers saying Jesus and the Holy Spirit are gods, too, they say. Paul is a big help here. His writing is often so unclear that Peter even remarked upon that in the Bible. One thing is certain, they find no passage that says "Jesus is God" or "The Holy Spirit is God." So they scour the Bible for support. If they find a phrase that looks like support, they bend it and smother it in words supposedly showing how this passage supports their claims. Again, they use unclear passages and ignore alternative translations.

It's very hard, even for a trinitarian, to find supportive text for the Holy Spirit's godhood. The one passage in Acts can be easily understood without making the Holy Spirit God.

The next thing they assert is equality. Here the going is not so easy for them. Their champion passage

Quote:

LEB: Philippians 2:6. who, existing in the form of God,

did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped,

is a model of unclarity and can, and has been, translated differently

Quote:

ACV: Philippians 2:6. who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal to God something to seize and hold.

Obviously, one does not seize something one already has. Again, they find no passage stating the case for equality in a straight manner.

The most perplexing thing about trinitarians is how they ignore clear, straight-forward passages that nullify the three gods thing and the equality between these three. Passages like

Quote:

ACV: I Corinthians 15:28. And when all things are made subordinate to him, then the Son himself will also be made subordinate to him who subordinated all things to him, so that God may be all in all.

and

Quote:

ACV: I Corinthians 8:6. yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we for him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him.

and

Quote:

ACV: John 17:3. And this is eternal life, that they should know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou sent.

mean noting to them. It's as these passages don't exist.

Any one of these passages, there are many more like them, is enough to nullify at least one essential concept of the trinity, making the whole dogma unviable.

The strongest argument trinitarians ever had, was the stake. Unfortunately for them, it's frowned upon nowadays.

[Gordon1]

Hey Tony,

At one time Adventists were taught to beware of priests using the phrase:

"You can't understand that - it's a mystery".

[Gerr]

Is it the Trinitarians' fault? The Bible says there is One God, but identifies 3 persons who are all God. The Bible clearly says Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

[Gordon1]

"I and the Father are one." (John 10:30)

(Christ & the Father)

"That they may be one as we are." (John 17:22)

(The disciples, Christ & the Father)

"That they may all be one;

as thou Father, art in me,

and I in thee,

that they also may be one in us:

that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." (John 17:21)

(Future believers, current disciples, Christ & the Father)

ALL ONE.

Not one body, but one spirit, one way of thinking.

"The unity that exists between Christ and His disciples does not destroy the personality of either.

They are one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person.

It is thus that God and Christ are One."

(Ministry of Healing 422, also 8 Testimonies 269)

[Gibs]

You can think anyway you want but the fact still remains Christ and the Father are one Substance. Without the Father in Him full He would not be God!

He would have only been the Fathers Prince born of Woman, so then the son of man and also the son of God.

But, The Deity, Divinity, the Father was fully in Him, and from the beginning the Father gave Himself for this purpose to come and dwell in His son born of woman, the seed of David, and so having our fallen nature and this a union was made we cannot fathom!

"The union of the divine with the human is one of the most mysterious, as well as the most precious, truths of the plan of redemption. It is of this that Paul speaks when he says, "Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh." 1 Timothy 3:16. While it is impossible for finite minds fully to grasp this great truth, or to fathom its significance, we may learn from it lessons of vital importance to us in our struggles against temptation. Christ came to the world to bring divine power to humanity, to make man a partaker of the divine nature. {GCB, February 25, 1895 par. 7}

Christ could have done nothing during His earthly ministry in saving fallen man if the divine had not been blended with the human. The limited capacity of man cannot define this wonderful mystery--the blending the two natures, the divine and the human. It can never be explained. Man must wonder and be silent. And yet man is privileged to be a partaker of the divine nature, and in this way he can to some degree enter into the mystery. This wonderful exhibition of God's love was made on the cross of Calvary. Divinity took the nature of humanity, and for what purpose?--That through the righteousness of Christ humanity might partake of the divine nature. This union of divinity and humanity, which was possible with Christ, is incomprehensible to human minds. The wonderful things to take place in our world--the greatest events of all ages--are incomprehensible to worldly minds; they cannot be explained by human sciences. The powers of heaven shall be shaken. Christ is coming in power and great glory, but His coming is not such a mystery as the things to take place before that event. Man must be a partaker of the divine nature in order to stand in this evil time, when the mysteries of satanic agencies are at work. Only by the divine power united with the human can souls endure through these times of trial. Says Christ, "Without me ye can do nothing." Then there must be far less of self and more of Jesus." . {1888 332.1}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gordon1]

Gibs, Christ is the Son of God - He is Divine by inheritance.

He was Divine before creation, before the fall of man,

brought forth by the Father in the days of eternity.

(see Proverbs 8:22-30, Micah 5:2, Patriarchs & Prophets 34)

Later Christ became the Son of man when He was sent to Bethlehem.

[Gibs]

The Divinity in Him is the Father though, without the Father He is not God. Yes the Redeemer before Bethlehem was Deity, He was the Father extended! He wasn't incorporated into the Fathers son until the Son was born. That is when the Father gave His Redeemer to us, in the Babe born of Mary at Bethlehem.

Isaiah says He was HIS Redeemer before Bethlehem.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and HIS redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Notice too the Redeemer is also Yahweh, only can He be if He is one substance of Him the Father!

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one. Jesus said it! I believe it! But people turn right around and say no there is two!

Context of 3 verses proves it!!

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Then Jesus tells us why.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

There is no scripture to defend more than one God, not one.

Also Christ in you is the Father in you, read and comphrehend.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Christ is the Father manifest in the flesh, a gift of Himself and His only begotten Son born of Mary a woman of our selves!

A union beyond finite comphrehension!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gordon1]

Gibs,

The Father and Son are separate persons.

"No man hath seen God at any time.." (John 1:18)

but "our hands have handled" Christ. (1 John 1:1)

"When the law was spoken, the Lord, the Creator of heaven and earth,

stood by the side of His Son, enshrouded in the fire and the smoke on the mount."

(1 Bible Commentary 1103)

Christ is the Angel (messenger) of the LORD in Exodus 23:21,

"Behold I send an Angel ... my name is in him."

[Guest]

epaminondas, to someone who isn't quite sure how to slice it yet, you make a very compelling argument. And you have the Bible verses to back up what you're saying. Instead of mere assumption or innuendo.

My thing has been, when I think about it, "why would God call it a Father/Son relationship, if it was really something else? Wouldn't that be like lying? And everybody knows, that in a father/son relationship, that the Father had to come first at some point. Otherwise it is not a father/son relationship. It would be...well, something else.

[Gibs]

Jesus only is a separate person but if the Father were not in Him He would not be God!

There is but "ONE" God, the scripture is adamant of that fact! YAHWEH!

2Co 5:19 To wit, that "GOD" was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Jesus was not another God, He tells you so, "I and my Father are one!"

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

I am sure Philip believed after that! How on earth could he see the Father in Christ if it wasn't the Father in Him?

Mt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

epaminondas, to someone who isn't quite sure how to slice it yet, you make a very compelling argument. And you have the Bible verses to back up what you're saying. Instead of mere assumption or innuendo.

My thing has been, when I think about it, "why would God call it a Father/Son relationship, if it was really something else? Wouldn't that be like lying? And everybody knows, that in a father/son relationship, that the Father had to come first at some point. Otherwise it is not a father/son relationship. It would be...well, something else.

RLH,

Read the first chapter of Patriarchs and Prophets, and then see if you can find a way for a non-trinitarian view to fit into the view of the great controversy between Christ and Satan. I, for one, find it impossible.

[Guest]

RLH,

Read the first chapter of Patriarchs and Prophets, and then see if you can find a way for a non-trinitarian view to fit into the view of the great controversy between Christ and Satan.

Ok, I will. Thanks.

[Gibs]

The Father didn't actually have a begotten Son, His only Son until He was born of Mary at Bethlehem!

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

He could declare Him because He was in the Bosom of the Father!

Mt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

The Father not only gave Himself but also His only begotten Son who also gave all, His life and shed His Blood.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gordon1]

The Father didn't actually have a begotten Son, His only Son until He was born of Mary at Bethlehem!

That's a common belief, but as Richard implied it would make the Father a liar. And very intentionally confusing.

Lies & confusion come from somewhere else, but not from the Father of lights.

Or as John said "He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father." (1 John 2:22,23)

Jesus was the Son of God long before Bethlehem, before the fall, before creation.

Patriarchs & Prophets p.34 makes this clear in quoting Proverbs 8:22-30 and Micah 5:2.

"Who hath established all the ends of the earth?

what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

(Proverbs 30:4)

Nebuchadnezzar "answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose,

walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt;

and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."

(Daniel 3:25)

Deny the Son of God if you wish.

"Those who derided His claim to be the Son of God are speechless now." Great Controversy 643.

[Guest]

Exactly Gordon! He was the Son long before creation. Perhaps it would be impossible to fathom how long. To us it would be like eternity, since the mind could not wrap around it.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself...

You can't really say that this only applies to Jesus coming in the flesh, when the Old Testament speaks about the Son of God. Can you?

[Guest]

Jesus only is a separate person but if the Father were not in Him He would not be God!

I think you may go too far in saying that. If God the Father gave Him His power, then He has the power. Even though it was given to Him, it is His now. Wouldn't you think?

[Gordon1]

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."

Yes Richard, John 8:42 describes two separate births:

1st birth) "I proceeded forth and came from God" - (Jesus brought forth in the days of eternity)

(Proverbs 8:24, Micah 5:2 margin)

2nd birth) "neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (Jesus sent by the Father into Bethlehem)

"Nearly two thousand years ago, a voice of mysterious import was heard in heaven,

from the throne of God, "Lo, I come."...Christ was about to visit our world, and to become incarnate."

(Desire of Ages p.23)

[epaminondas]

Quote:

You can think anyway you want but the fact still remains Christ and the Father are one Substance.

What exactly is this "substance?" Is it matter, energy, or something else? It's a buzz word thrown around without anyone knowing what it means.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

That's a common belief, but as Richard implied it would make the Father a liar. And very intentionally confusing.

Lies & confusion come from somewhere else, but not from the Father of lights.

And where is a more confusing theory than the trinity dogma?

[epaminondas]

Quote:

My thing has been, when I think about it, "why would God call it a Father/Son relationship, if it was really something else? Wouldn't that be like lying? And everybody knows, that in a father/son relationship, that the Father had to come first at some point. Otherwise it is not a father/son relationship. It would be...well, something else.

Exactly. Maybe the Father and Jesus are verbal cripples and could not find the right words to describe the relationship between them. Maybe they just picked the first words that came to mind. Does that sound right?

[epaminondas]

Is it the Trinitarians' fault? The Bible says there is One God, but identifies 3 persons who are all God. The Bible clearly says Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

Quote a passage that clearly states, in so many words, that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are gods.

[epaminondas]

Hey Tony,

At one time Adventists were taught to beware of priests using the phrase:

"You can't understand that - it's a mystery".

Why did they stop?