The Trinity?

[John317]

As you know, this is not an obscure volume or later church compilation like Evangelism where some have attempted to change her words with inserted titles and emphases. Quite regrettable & dishonest, but that's life in the big city.

What EGW quote in Evangelism was changed without her authorization?

We know of course that they added the word "Trinity" in the subtitles but they clearly stated that the subtitles are not part of Ellen White's original writings.

I personally have checked all the quotes in Evangelism pages 164-167 and have seen them all at the EGW Estate. They are all totally reliable and authentic.

If you believe they are not, tell which statement is not to be believed.

[whatisthis]

Our crucified Lord is pleading for us in the presence of the Father at the throne of grace. His atoning sacrifice we may plead for our pardon, our justification, and our sanctification. The lamb slain is our only hope. Our faith looks up to Him, grasps Him as the One who can save to the uttermost, and the fragrance of the all-sufficient offering is accepted of the Father. . . . Christ’s glory is concerned in our success. He has a common interest in all humanity. He is our sympathizing Saviour.

From Devotional: Our Father Cares, pp. 202, 203.

Gen_22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering

Joh_1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I just want to note that that Lamb, slain for us, existed before Bethlehem put Him in the manger. He was always our hope, and God's Son.

1Pe 1:18-20 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

God has provided and is providing and will provide the Lamb. That thought is integral to the plans of God, it is central to who God always has been and always will be! Isn't this the theme of Grace we will always look into, never have enough of, and never fully understand! Yes! And I love Him!

[Gordon1]

"Christ was not alone in making His great sacrifice.

It was the fulfillment of the covenant made between Him and His Father

before the foundation of the world was laid.

With clasped hands they had entered into the solemn pledge that Christ would become

the surety for the human race if they were overcome by Satan’s sophistry."

The Faith I Live By 76.

Here we read that the Father clasped hands with the Son before the foundation of the world was laid.

Christ was God's Son before the world was made.

See Proverbs 8:22-30.

[ClubV12]

and this Gordon1,

"The Father's arms encircle His Son..."

DA pg 451

This takes place at Christs arrival in heaven from His ascension.

[John317]

Here we read that the Father clasped hands with the Son before the foundation of the world was laid.

Christ was God's Son before the world was made.

See Proverbs 8:22-30.

Gordon, no one is denying this. Christ is the "eternal, self-existent Son of God."

The problem comes from believing that "Son of God" means that Christ had a beginning in heaven, that He did not exist at some point.

"Son of God" is not a reference to how Jesus came into existence. The pre-existent Christ was not a literal "son" any more than he was a literal Lamb, etc.

What does the Bible and Ellen White mean when the pre-existent Christ is called "the Son of God"?

Remember that she also says that He is "self-existent."

What does that mean? Only God is "self-existent," right?

[whatisthis]

Pro 8:22-30 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

[whatisthis]

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

[Gordon1]

This quote comes from a stenographer's report when EGW spoke in a church in Oakland, California. There is NO evidence she reviewed or approved the Stenographer's report.

This is an important point Dr. Waite.

To know her view, we are safer to rely upon the following counsel from the winter of 1888-1889:

"And now to all who have a desire for truth I would say: Do not give credence to unauthenticated reports as to what Sister White has done or said or written. If you desire to know what the Lord has revealed through her, read her published works. Are there any points of interest concerning which she has not written, do not eagerly catch up and report rumors as to what she has said."

Testimonies Volume 5, 696.

Thus her published & authenticated works up until that time she deemed acceptable.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: John317

She also says elsewhere that the Holy Spirit is one of "three holiest beings in heaven"--

Here is where the work of the Holy Ghost comes in, after your baptism. You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life--to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling. You are to reveal that you are dead to sin; your life is hid with Christ in God. Hidden "with Christ in God,"--wonderful transformation. This is a most precious promise. When I feel oppressed, and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon the three great Worthies, and say; You know I cannot do this work in my own strength. You must work in me, and by me and through me, sanctifying my tongue, sanctifying my spirit, sanctifying my words, and bringing me into a position where my spirit shall be susceptible to the movings of the Holy Spirit of God upon my mind and character. {7MR 267.2}

And this is the prayer that every one of us may offer. . . . {7MR 268.1}

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

This quote comes from a stenographer's report when EGW spoke in a church in Oakland, California. There is NO evidence she reviewed or approved the Stenographer's report.

Ellen White regularly had her secreteries and professional stenogrphers record her sermons, because they were often published in the Review and Herald and also used in her books.

And yes, she did read them and approve of them with her signature or her initial. You will find them in the E. G. White Estate.

The "three holiest beings" statement was from a sermon delivered by E. G. White at the Congregational Church, then being used by the Oakland SDA Church, on 18th and Market Streets, in Oakland, California, on Sabbath afternoon, October 20, 1906, but only transcribed by a listener in the audience and not published until after her death in Manuscript Releases volume 7 in 1976.

I am reminded that Ellen White states:

"I am now looking over my diaries and copies of letters written for several years back. . . . I have the most precious matter to reproduce and place before the people in testimony form. While I am able to do this work, the people must have things to revive past history, that they may see that there is one straight chain of truth, without one heretical sentence, in that which I have written. This, I am instructed, is to be a living letter to all in regard to my faith.--Letter 329a, 1905. 3SM 52"

This also should be considered:

"And now to all who have a desire for truth I would say: Do not give credence to unauthenticated reports as to what Sister White has done or said or written. If you desire to know what the Lord has revealed through her, read her published works." 5T 696

[whatisthis]

Isa_53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Hos_4:16 For Israel slideth back as a backsliding heifer: now the LORD will feed them as a lamb in a large place.

Joh_1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Rev_5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev_5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Rev_5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This Lamb prepared for me is with God on His throne and is worshipped by the four and twenty elders.

[John317]

If you ignore the plainest EGW statements in their setting, you'll not believe a plain student over a prophet. I'm not a debater, I know many relish this aspect of forums, but you can investigate what she meant in Patriarchs and Prophets. Or you can avoid it.

As you know, this is not an obscure volume or later church compilation....

I'm not avoiding Patriarchs and Prophets at all. It is a great book that I use all the time.

I'm saying that there is no contradiction between her statements in Patriarchs and Prophets and the statements she made elsewhere on the same subject.

Do you accept her statement in Counsels on Health, page 222--

Quote:

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin. What line can measure the depth of this love?

Who felt pity?

Of whom does the Godhead consist?

Who gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption?

Who "decided" that the prexistent, self-existent, eternal Son of God should give Himself an offering for sin?

[John317]

x10

[whatisthis]

Whether Sister White saw the whole of this truth or not (and it's an unlimited and constantly unfolding truth that nobody could see all of anyway,) the Bible clearly unfolds this united gift of the Lamb from before time's beginning here on earth. That's the whole theme of grace amazing!

[Gordon1]

Pro 8:22-30 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

This passage is pregnant with true meaning which EGW has only glanced up in Patriarchs & Prophets 34.

Though she obviously fully understood what was written for our admonition.

[whatisthis]

And sometimes Ellen's words are designed to ring clearer when she, the clapper, is put inside the Bible, the bell:

Our crucified Lord is pleading for us in the presence of the Father at the throne of grace. His atoning sacrifice we may plead for our pardon, our justification, and our sanctification. The lamb slain is our only hope. Our faith looks up to Him, grasps Him as the One who can save to the uttermost, and the fragrance of the all-sufficient offering is accepted of the Father. . . . Christ’s glory is concerned in our success. He has a common interest in all humanity. He is our sympathizing Saviour.

From Devotional: Our Father Cares, pp. 202, 203.

Gen_22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering

Joh_1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I just want to note that that Lamb, slain for us, existed before Bethlehem put Him in the manger. He was always our hope, and God's Son.

1Pe 1:18-20 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

God has provided and is providing and will provide the Lamb. That thought is integral to the plans of God, it is central to who God always has been and always will be! Isn't this the theme of Grace we will always look into, never have enough of, and never fully understand! Yes! And I love Him!

"Christ was not alone in making His great sacrifice.

It was the fulfillment of the covenant made between Him and His Father

before the foundation of the world was laid.

With clasped hands they had entered into the solemn pledge that Christ would become

the surety for the human race if they were overcome by Satan’s sophistry."

The Faith I Live By 76.

Here we see that God our Father clasped hands with His Son before the foundation of the world was laid. Christ was God's Son before the world was made.

Pro 8:22-30 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Isa_53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Hos_4:16 For Israel slideth back as a backsliding heifer: now the LORD will feed them as a lamb in a large place.

Joh_1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Rev_5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev_5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Rev_5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Counsels on Health, page 222--

Quote:

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin. What line can measure the depth of this love?

Rev_7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

[John317]

Pro 8:22-30 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

This passage is pregnant with true meaning which EGW has only glanced up in Patriarchs & Prophets 34.

Though she obviously fully understood what was written for our admonition.

What part of Prov 8 do you believe teaches that Christ's existence in heaven had a beginning?

We need to remember that Prov 8 is about "wisdom" and that "wisdom" is portrayed as a woman who lives with another woman named "Prudence."

If we take it literally, it would mean that there was a time when God did not have any wisdom.

It would also mean Christ is a woman.

[skyblue888]

Gibs, in a general sense the Father is also our Redeemer.

But the Father should not be mistaken for the Son,

they have always been two distinct persons.

The Father is immortal;

but Christ will always bear wounds in the palms of His hands.

Gordon, Christ is not immortal?

[whatisthis]

Well, let's be careful not to cloudy the meaning up! I'm sure I'm of no help here, just echoing the wonderful words John3:17 is presenting, and should not have tried to add to it.

[Gordon1]

Fifty Years of Doctrinal Stability

EGW warned in 1904 that the foundational doctrine of our faith had not changed in fifty years,

nor should it ever, but if a "reorganization" took place then "Our religion would be changed". 1 SM 204.

"The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error." 1 SM 204.

"Upon this foundation we have been building for the past fifty years." 1 SM 207.

"The truth that has stood firm against the attacks of the enemy for more than half a century

must still be the confidence and comfort of God's people." 9 Testimonies 70.

[John317]

EGW warned in 1904 that the foundational doctrine of our faith had not changed in fifty years,

nor should it ever, but if a "reorganization" took place then "Our religion would be changed". 1 SM 204.

"The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error." 1 SM 204.

Can you show that the anti-Trintiarian doctrine or even non-Trintiarian doctrine was among the "fundamental principles" of the SDA church?

Anti-Trinitarianism was never a part of our official doctrines. And Ellen White-- unlike James White-- never attacked the Trinity doctrine per se.

James White wrote in the R&H against the idea of the Trinity doctrine being a test of character or fellowship. From the viewpoint of both James and Ellen White, there were many things of far greater importance to the church than getting everyone to agree on every detail regarding the Godhead/Trinity. There was the Sabbath, the Second Coming, the Investigative Judgment, the Three Angels' Message, etc. And of course there was a world-wide church to build.

The early SDA church had both Trinitarians and anti-Trinitarians among its members and even among the ministers. No one was ever told they had to change their views on the subject.

Keep in mind that our Pioneers did not all think alike on this subject. Some believed in the 1860s and 1870s that Christ had been created-- others that Christ had always existed, and still others that Christ had been "begotten, not created." Ellen White was wise not to insist that everyone agree on the subject.

Then about 1912 the editor of the R&H wrote an article in that paper in which he said that "the Seventh-day Adventist Church believed in the Trinity."

Ellen White had nothing but good things to say about the editor, F.M. Wilcox. In fact, about a year after he wrote that article, Ellen White appointed Wilcox to the original board of directors of the EGW Estate. I seriously doubt Ellen White would have done this if she had believed Wilcox was leading the Church into false doctrines.

[Gordon1]

What part of Prov 8 do you believe teaches that Christ's existence in heaven had a beginning?

We need to remember that Prov 8 is about "wisdom" and that "wisdom" is portrayed as a woman who lives with another woman named "Prudence."

If we take it literally, it would mean that there was a time when God did not have any wisdom.

It would also mean Christ is a woman.

It appears Ellen White was more than a surface reader and

avoided these pitfalls of misunderstanding in Patriarchs & Prophets.

But as a prophet she did not ignore difficult texts.

Rather, God gave her insight to explain their true meaning.

We can accept this or reject it, like the health message,

or her counsel on debate.

Past my bedtime.

[ClubV12]

I reject this idea and concept so oft repeated on this forum:

"Ellen White and other pioneers of her day could not join the Church today because of their beliefs." Or words to that effect, ridiculous.

It is an insult to the intelligence of the pioneers and to the Church. Ellen White was a champion of growth and greater understanding of OLD LIGHT, which she often described as "new light". Another facet to be seen in the same gem of truth, one long chain of truth and understanding. The pioneers would certainly be willing and able to join the body of believers today!

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

EGW warned in 1904 that the foundational doctrine of our faith had not changed in fifty years,

nor should it ever, but if a "reorganization" took place then "Our religion would be changed". 1 SM 204.

"The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error." 1 SM 204.

Can you show that the anti-Trintiarian doctrine or even non-Trintiarian doctrine was among the "fundamental principles" of the SDA church?

Anti-Trinitarianism was never a part of our official doctrines. And Ellen White-- unlike James White-- never attacked the Trinity doctrine per se.

James White wrote in the R&H against the idea of the Trinity doctrine being a test of character or fellowship. From the viewpoint of both James and Ellen White, there were many things of far greater importance to the church than getting everyone to agree on every detail regarding the Godhead/Trinity. There was the Sabbath, the Second Coming, the Investigative Judgment, the Three Angels' Message, etc. And of course there was a world-wide church to build.

The early SDA church had both Trinitarians and anti-Trinitarians among its members and even among the ministers. No one was ever told they had to change their views on the subject.

Keep in mind that our Pioneers did not all think alike on this subject. Some believed in the 1860s and 1870s that Christ had been created-- others that Christ had always existed, and still others that Christ had been "begotten, not created." Ellen White was wise not to insist that everyone agree on the subject.

Then about 1912 the editor of the R&H wrote an article in that paper in which he said that "the Seventh-day Adventist Church believed in the Trinity."

Ellen White had nothing but good things to say about the editor, F.M. Wilcox. In fact, about a year after he wrote that article, Ellen White appointed Wilcox to the original board of directors of the EGW Estate. I seriously doubt Ellen White would have done this if she had believed Wilcox was leading the Church into false doctrines.

In 1872 there was a published "DECLARATION OF THE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES TAUGHT AND PRACTICED BY THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS"

Articles I and II were part of the doctrines taught and practiced by the pioneers. The pioneers taught that there was one God who was a single being and who had a representative, the Holy Spirit, and there was one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Eternal Father.

Just because F.M. Wilcox published a R&H article on the trinity in 1912 did not change the "DECLARATION OF THE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES TAUGHT AND PRACTICED BY THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS" which was also published in the SDA yearbook.

If a person only accepted Articles I and II of the 1872 "DECLARATION OF THE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES TAUGHT AND PRACTICED BY THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS" and NOT Section 2 of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs of the SDA Church, could that person today join the SDA Church as a member?

[Gordon1]

George Knight is perhaps the best known SDA historian today, a former Andrews University prof.

Ministry magazine is the "International Journal for Pastors" published by the SDA Ministerial Association of the GC.

George Knight wrote for Ministry magazine in October 1993:

"Most of the founders of Seventh-day Adventism would not be

able to join the church today if they had to subscribe to the denomination's Fundamental Beliefs."

"More specifically, most would not be able to agree to belief number 2,

which deals which deals with the doctrine of the Trinity..."

"As a subscription journal, Ministry's monthly circulation reaches about 18,000 Seventh-day Adventist pastors,

church leaders and local church elders. Approximately 62,000 pastors of other denominations receive the journal

bi-monthly on a gift subscription basis."

[Gordon1]

So George Knight, despite his flaws, saw fit to proclaim this change of doctrine

through the most influential of official channels,

the Ministerial Association of the General Conference of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.