The Trinity?

[o2bwise]

Hi Ted,

Quote:

2) That Christ was literally begotten of the Father, proceeding from the Father's bosom, so far back in eternity past and so quickly that, for all intents and purposes, Father and Son have always existed, co-equal and co-eternal.

The first choice goes directly to the Arian/semi-Arian position...and I do remember you clearly speaking against this earlier in the thread. That would leave you with the second choice, no?

I would submit that choice number 2 is also not outside the grasp of what many understand the Trinity/Triune Godhead to be.

Yup, the second one.

Well, I do not believe the HS is a separate person. I think Lysimacus (I believe that is the username) explained the HS wonderfully with respect to my sense of things.

Ted, I want to thank you for your conciliatory tone. It is much appreciated.

Blessings,

Tony

[o2bwise]

Hi e (and others),

Quote:

Oh, yes. The Father is "the only true God" actually means Jesus and the Holy Spirit are gods, too. This is so basic and simple.

You also have:

1 Corinthians 1:3

3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Oh, but maybe the above is some peculiar Pauline literary style. Better check with another NT writer.

1 Peter 1:1-3a

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Awwww, heck. Let's do another one.

James 1:1

1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.

Darn! Let's try another one...

Revelation 1:1

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

But, wait! I HAVE to be trinitarian! This cannot be. I know! I'll give hundreds of texts an interpretation totally unlike their most apparent!

Jude 1

Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

My point is clear. The trinitarian doctrine requires literally hundreds of texts to be given a meaning that is totally unlike their most apparent.

Which for me is to eviscerate any semblance of rightly approaching the word of God for truth.

1 Corinthians 8:6-7a

6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. 7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge;

I used to be trinitarian and one day I somehow had the wherewithal to be able to test the doctrine. I read the entire NT.

I cannot possibly hold true to my present understanding of the Bible and be trinitarian.

It is as unbiblical as - well - flying pink elephants.

Blessings,

Tony

[Gerr]

Quote:

Does she say ALL leprosy is spread by the consumption of pork? Check out Armadillo and leprosy in the SE USA.

An Armadillo and a pig are really two different animals. How does the fact that the Armadillo is a host to Mycobacterium Leprae in any way have anything to do with the fact that the pig is not and does not transmit leprosy?

Here is the link where you can download A Word to the Little Flock from the White Estate. I suppose you won't be able to find it in the file. What can I say?

My point about the armadillo is to show that if this animal can harbor M. leprae, so can the hog. One cannot use the present pork as proof that it does not harbor M. leprae is because the hogs that are now commercially are controlled including the breeding so that they cannot be compared to the pork eaten in her day.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Your bedrock proof text actually supports the divinity of Christ!

Oh, yes. The Father is "the only true God" actually means Jesus and the Holy Spirit are gods, too. This is so basic and simple. How can anyone not see it? Alford is a champion BS artist.

Obviously, you disagree with what Jesus said in John 17:3.

If Alford, Jamieson, Brown & Fausset are wrong, how can Jesus guarantee eternal life for a believer UNLESS He Himself inherently possesses it?

Maybe I missed it, but I'm still haven't seen your response as to why Jesus is to be worshiped by all including the angels if He is a mere created being;

[Gordon1]

One day I somehow had the wherewithal to be able to test the doctrine.

I read the entire NT.

Yes Tony, the wise shall understand. Bullying not required.

[Gibs]

Yahweh the Father did not have ANY son until Bethlehem

His Redeemer before Bethlehem was not Begotten but proceeded, extended, procured of Himself, His name was Yahweh too, Yahweh of Hosts, because Redeemer was the Father extended and sent forth of Him for the creation and to take care of the sin, rebellion problem when it arose.

No way was a Son begotten before Bethlehem for Him to come and dwell in! The "ONLY" BEGOTTEN was born of Mary, being the Son of God and the son of man. Yahweh-Redeemer was in Him at that time and Heaven was emptied of Him from that time on until He returned after the crucifiction.

The Father in Him will be returned when the sin problem is completed and then finally the Father is ALL IN ALL AGAIN!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[o2bwise]

Hey Gerry,

Quote:

Maybe I missed it, but I'm still haven't seen your response as to why Jesus is to be worshiped by all including the angels if He is a mere created being;

Ya know how while Adam is the genuine man, you as a descendant of man are also a man?

Well, Jesus is like that, after all He is the only begotten Son of God and as Waggoner during the 1888 GC Sessiom, said, "He is not a created being, He is a begotten Son."

Jesus is worshiped in a manner similar to a Prince being worshiped.

He quite literally is a Son of the Divine (read: God the Father, The Ancient of Days) Line.

It's not hard to understand, it just takes being able to understand what the son of a father is and extrapolate that to divine perfection.

Blessings,

Tony

[epaminondas]

Quote:

My point about the armadillo is to show that if this animal can harbor M. leprae, so can the hog.

No, it can't. Just like I can't get distemper. Even Loma Linda Medical School admits the pig was never known to transmit leprosy. But, of course, you know better.

The ancient Egyptians apparently believed as Ellen White did. Maybe she got it from them. We all know, everything she ever said is true.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

If Alford, Jamieson, Brown & Fausset are wrong, how can Jesus guarantee eternal life for a believer UNLESS He Himself inherently possesses it?

Maybe I missed it, but I'm still haven't seen your response as to why Jesus is to be worshiped by all including the angels if He is a mere created being;

No, these monkeys are all right. Jesus is wrong.

The unqualified statement that the Father is the only true God is a standalone statement that is not changed in any way by any context.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

By "One God" do you mean a unity "one" or a mathematical "one"? The two are not the same...

And the award for the biggest BS artist of the moment goes to...

[ClubV12]

Sometimes I think I'm a jerk,,, well, sometimes it's true.

But then I see epaminondas post something and I feel better... :)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Sometimes I think I'm a jerk,,, well, sometimes it's true.

But then I see epaminondas post something and I feel better...

[Gerr]

Quote:

Does she say ALL leprosy is spread by the consumption of pork? Check out Armadillo and leprosy in the SE USA.

An Armadillo and a pig are really two different animals. How does the fact that the Armadillo is a host to Mycobacterium Leprae in any way have anything to do with the fact that the pig is not and does not transmit leprosy?

Here is the link where you can download A Word to the Little Flock from the White Estate. I suppose you won't be able to find it in the file. What can I say?

I followed the link you provided. I found in it no reference to either Saturn and its moons or pork and leprosy, although I would not be surprised if hogs could harbor M. leprae.

[Gerr]

Hey Gerry,

Quote:

Maybe I missed it, but I'm still haven't seen your response as to why Jesus is to be worshiped by all including the angels if He is a mere created being;

Ya know how while Adam is the genuine man, you as a descendant of man are also a man?

Well, Jesus is like that, after all He is the only begotten Son of God and as Waggoner during the 1888 GC Sessiom, said, "He is not a created being, He is a begotten Son."

Jesus is worshiped in a manner similar to a Prince being worshiped.

He quite literally is a Son of the Divine (read: God the Father, The Ancient of Days) Line.

It's not hard to understand, it just takes being able to understand what the son of a father is and extrapolate that to divine perfection.

Blessings,

Tony

Angels' advise to man: "Worship God."

Jesus advise even to Lucifer:

‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’

God the Father: ESV | ýHeb 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him [Jesus].”

ESV | ýRe 5:12 “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” ý13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!” ý14 And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

Either Jesus Christ is God or the angels and God and Jesus Himself are guilty of idolatry!

[Gerr]

Quote:

Your bedrock proof text actually supports the divinity of Christ!

Oh, yes. The Father is "the only true God" actually means Jesus and the Holy Spirit are gods, too. This is so basic and simple. How can anyone not see it? Alford is a champion BS artist.

Obviously, you disagree with what Jesus said in John 17:3.

Me thinks it's you who disagrees with what Jesus is claiming.

ESV | ýJn 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

The conjunction "and" links what follows it to what went before it. To which is Jesus Christ linked to? To eternal life or only true God. Either way, it is inescapable that one or the other confirms the divinity of Jesus because if you say the former, one who does not have inherent eternal life cannot guarantee it for a non-immortal.

The same author who wrote Jn 17:3 also said this:

NASB95 | ‎1 Jn 5:12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

As for another champion of BS, you may want to add St. Chrysostom to your list who said this:

“The only true God,” He saith, by way of distinction from those which are not gods; for He was about to send them to the Gentiles. But if they will not allow this, but on account of this word “only” reject the Son from being true God, in this way as they proceed they reject Him from being God at all.2 For He also saith, “Ye seek not the glory which is from the only God.” (c. 5:44.) Well then; shall not the Son be God? But if the Son be God, and the Son of the Father who is called the Only God, it is clear that He also is true, and the Son of Him who is called the Only true God. Why, when Paul saith, “Or I only and Barnabas” (1 Cor. 9:6), doth he exclude Barnabas? Not at all; for the “only” is put by way of distinction from others. And, if He be not true God, how is He “Truth”? for truth far surpasses what is true. What shall we call the not being a “true” man, tell me? shall we not call it the not being a man at all? so if the Son is not true God, how is He God? And how maketh He us gods and sons, if He is not true?

John Chrysostom. (1889). Homilies of St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople, on the Gospel of St. John G. T. Stupart, Trans.). In P. Schaff (Ed.), A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, First Series, Volume XIV: Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on the Gospel of St. John and Epistle to the Hebrews (P. Schaff, Ed.) (297). New York: Christian Literature Company.

[Gail]

Sometimes I think I'm a jerk,,, well, sometimes it's true.

But then I see epaminondas post something and I feel better...

[o2bwise]

Hi Gerry,

Quote:

Either Jesus Christ is God or the angels and God and Jesus Himself are guilty of idolatry!

I never once said Jesus is not God.

Tony

[o2bwise]

OK, I admit it...

I am surprised no trinitarians acknowledged this post of mine:

620871 - Yesterday at 01:07 PM

Tony

[o2bwise]

Hi Gerry,

Quote:

Me thinks it's you who disagrees with what Jesus is claiming.

ESV | ýJn 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

The conjunction "and" links what follows it to what went before it

And this is how to get good car repair - know Dan the chief car mechanic -and- his associate Ben.

Translation: The word and links Ben to Dan. Obviously Ben is also a chief car mechanic.

And this is how to secure a nice three piece suit - know John the tailor and his wife Denise.

Translation: The word and links Denise to John. Obviously Denise is also a tailor.

Methinks if one performed a statistical analysis where 100,000 people were polled on how to interpret the above two examples, 99% would not interpret them in the way I posed. And those that would, would have some kind of mental malady, such as schizophrenia.

Tony

[John317]

In 1872 there was a published "DECLARATION OF THE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES TAUGHT AND PRACTICED BY THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS"

Articles I and II were part of the doctrines taught and practiced by the pioneers. The pioneers taught that there was one God who was a single being and who had a representative, the Holy Spirit, and there was one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Eternal Father.

Please notice that the 1872 Declaration was unsigned, and the introductory statement reads in part:

Quote:

In presenting to the public this synopsis of our faith, we wish to have it distinctly understood that we have no articles of faith, creed, or discipline, aside from the Bible. We do not put forth this as having any authority with our people, nor is it designed to secure uniformity among them...

Did they say that "there was one God who was a single being"?

The actual wording of the first two articles is as follows:

Quote:

I -

That there is one God, a personal, spiritual being, the creator of all things, omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal, infinite in wisdom, holiness, justice, goodness, truth, and mercy; unchangeable, and everywhere present by his representative, the Holy Spirit. Psalm 139:7.

- II -

That there is one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Eternal Father, the one by whom God created all things, and by whom they do consist; that he took on him the nature of the seed of Abraham for the redemption of our fallen race; that he dwelt among men full of grace and truth, lived our example, died our sacrifice, was raised for our justification, ascended on high to be our only mediator in the sanctuary in Heaven, where, with his own blood, he makes atonement for our sins; which atonement, so far from being made on the cross, which was but the offering of the sacrifice, is the very last portion of his work as priest, according to the example of the Levitical priesthood, which foreshadowed and prefigured the ministry of our Lord in Heaven. See Leviticus ch. 16, Hebrews 8:4, 5; 9:6, 7; &c.

I would have no problem agreeing with those two Articles, although I think the way they are expressed can be improved.

[Gerr]

Hi e (and others),

Quote:

Oh, yes. The Father is "the only true God" actually means Jesus and the Holy Spirit are gods, too. This is so basic and simple.

You also have:

1 Corinthians 1:3

3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Oh, but maybe the above is some peculiar Pauline literary style. Better check with another NT writer.

1 Peter 1:1-3a

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Awwww, heck. Let's do another one.

James 1:1

1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.

Darn! Let's try another one...

Revelation 1:1

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

But, wait! I HAVE to be trinitarian! This cannot be. I know! I'll give hundreds of texts an interpretation totally unlike their most apparent!

Jude 1

Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

My point is clear. The trinitarian doctrine requires literally hundreds of texts to be given a meaning that is totally unlike their most apparent.

Which for me is to eviscerate any semblance of rightly approaching the word of God for truth.

1 Corinthians 8:6-7a

6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. 7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge;

I used to be trinitarian and one day I somehow had the wherewithal to be able to test the doctrine. I read the entire NT.

I cannot possibly hold true to my present understanding of the Bible and be trinitarian.

It is as unbiblical as - well - flying pink elephants.

Blessings,

Tony

Maybe try this one:

ESV | ý2 Pe 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

[o2bwise]

Hi Gerry,

Are you saying that you will deny the most apparent meaning of hundreds of texts so that you may satisfy what seems to you the most apparent meaning of a small minority?

The text you gave could be interpreted as referring to the righteousness of:

1. Our God

2. and Savior Jesus Christ

But, I don't need to be able to interpret that text.

Quote:

James White

Some men say that they will not believe anything till every objection is removed, and every point cleared up. But I believe wherever I see the weight of evidence. Just give me the weight of evidence and I am there. Judges, justices, and courts, have to decide questions upon the weight of evidence, and why not we? I dare not wait until every objection is answered, and every difficulty taken out of the way. It is a fearful thing to stand back mulishly until every possible chance to doubt is removed. Show me the weight of evidence, from the Bible, from experience, from the influence of the spirit of God, and I think I am always safest on that side. When I take a position like that, as it usually involves some self denial and crossbearing, I believe I meet the approbation of my Lord. I may expect to meet the blessing of God, sufficient to see all things clearly.

Gerry, please answer the following question.

What is your rational justification for satisfying what seems the most apparent interpretation of an extremely small number of texts when to do so REQUIRES disallowing the most apparent interpretation of a great many???

Blessings,

Tony

[John317]

ESV | Jn 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

There is only one true God, and that is the triune God. You can't know that "one true God" apart from knowing Jesus Christ.

Notice that 1 John 1: 2 refers to Christ as "the eternal life which was with the Father." It says that "our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ."

You can't have fellowship with the Father alone, nor can you have life apart from the Son: "He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son does not have the life."

Therefore it's a grave mistake to think you can separate Jesus Christ from the only true God.

Jesus Christ is as much a part of the true God as the Father and the Holy Spirit are "true God."

Titus 2: 14 refers to Christ as "our great God and Savior."

Clearly and unquestionably, our great God and Savior is "true God."

You seem to keep forgetting or ignoring that Heb 1: 3 teaches that the Son is the exact imprint of the Father's essence. That means since the Father is "true God," so is the Son.

[John317]

The text you gave could be interpreted as referring to the righteousness of:

1. Our God

2. and Savior Jesus Christ

2 Peter 1: 1 is speaking of a single person as "our God and Savior."

The same principle applies to the expression in Titus 2: 13, of "our great God and Savior."

This is proved both by grammatical rules of the Greek original and by the fact that God the Father is not appearing at the Second Coming.

But Jesus Christ our Savior and great God is appearing in glory, along with all of His holy angels.

[Gerr]

Gerry, please answer the following question.

What is your rational justification for satisfying what seems the most apparent interpretation of an extremely small number of texts when to do so REQUIRES disallowing the most apparent interpretation of a great many???

Blessings,

Tony

What are the numerous texts that my understanding/interpretation of Jn 17:3 negate?

Since you are not denying the divinity Christ, what's the problem? Is it the Holy Spirit?

BTW, here's another one. What did Thomas mean when he said to Christ, ESV | ýJn 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”