The Trinity?

[Gerr]

55 points.

I think the list is deceiving (not saying it is intended to be). Declarations are made and then Scripture referenced. 55 points out of the the entirety of Scripture (and without having examined the Scripture) pales in comparison to what I posed, in my opinion.

Alright, take these items one by one and show which one is deceiving.

Christ is God.

1. As Jehovah. Isa 40:3; Mt 3:3.

2. As Jehovah of glory. Ps 24:7,10; 1Co 2:8; Jas 2:1.

3. As Jehovah, our RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jer 23:5,6; 1Co 1:30.

4. As Jehovah, above all. Ps 97:9; Joh 3:31.

5. As Jehovah, the First and the Last. Isa 44:6; Re 1:17; Isa 48:12-16; Re 22:13.

6. As Jehovah’s Fellow and Equal. Zec 13:7; Php 2:6.

7. As Jehovah of Hosts. Isa 6:1-3; Joh 12:41; Isa 8:13,14; 1Pe 2:8.

8. As Jehovah, the Shepherd. Isa 40:11; Heb 13:20.

9. As Jehovah, for whose glory all things were created. Pr 16:4; Col 1:16.

10. As Jehovah, the Messenger of the covenant. Mal 3:1; Mr 1:2; Lu 2:27.

11. Invoked as Jehovah. Joe 2:32; Ac 2:21; 1Co 1:2.

12. As the Eternal God and Creator. Ps 102:24-27; Heb 1:8,10-12.

13. As the mighty God. Isa 9:6.

14. As the Great God and Saviour. Ho 1:7; Tit 2:13.

15. As God over all. Ps 45:6,7; Ro 9:5.

16. As the true God. Jer 10:10; 1Jo 5:20.

17. As God the Word. Joh 1:1.

18. As God, the judge. Ec 12:14; 1Co 4:5; 2Co 5:10; 2Ti 4:1.

19. As Emmanuel. Isa 7:14; Mt 1:23.

20. As King of kings and Lord of lords. Da 10:17; Re 1:5; 17:14.

21. As the Holy One. 1Sa 2:2; Ac 3:14.

22. As the Lord from heaven. 1Co 15:47.

23. As Lord of the Sabbath. Ge 2:3; Mt 12:8.

24. As Lord of all. Ac 10:36; Ro 10:11-13.

25. As Son of God. Mt 26:63-67.

26. As the Only-begotten Son of the Father. Joh 1:14,18; 3:16,18; 1Jo 4:9.

27. His blood is called the blood of God. Ac 20:28.

28. As one with the Father. Joh 10:30,38; 12:45; 14:7-10; 17:10.

29. As sending the Spirit, equally with the Father. Joh 14:16; 15:26.

30. As entitled to equal honour with the Father. Joh 5:23.

31. As Owner of all things, equally with the Father. Joh 16:15.

32. As unrestricted by the law of the sabbath, equally with the Father. Joh 5:17.

33. As the Source of grace, equally with the Father. 1Th 3:11; 2Th 2:16,17.

34. As unsearchable, equally with the Father. Pr 30:4; Mt 11:27.

35. As Creator of all things. Isa 40:28; Joh 1:3; Col 1:16; Heb 1:2.

36. As Supporter and Preserver of all things. Ne 9:6; Col 1:17; Heb 1:3.

37. As possessed of the fulness of the God head. Col 2:9; Heb 1:3.

38. As raising the dead. Joh 5:21; 6:40,54.

39. As raising himself from the dead. Joh 2:19,21; 10:18.

40. As Eternal. Isa 9:6; Mic 5:2; Joh 1:1; Col 1:17; Heb 1:8-10; Re 1:8.

41. As Omnipresent. Mt 18:20; 28:20; Joh 3:13.

42. As Omnipotent. Ps 45:3; Php 3:21; Re 1:8.

43. As Omniscient. Joh 16:30; 21:17.

44. As discerning the thoughts of the heart. 1Ki 8:39; Lu 5:22; Eze 11:5; Joh 2:24,25; Re 2:23.

45. As unchangeable. Mal 3:6; Heb 1:12; 13:8.

46. As having power to forgive sins. Col 3:13; Mr 2:7,10.

47. As Giver of pastors to the Church. Jer 3:15; Eph 4:11-13.

48. As Husband of the Church. Isa 54:5; Eph 5:25-32; Isa 62:5; Re 21:2,9.

49. As the object of divine worship. Ac 7:59; 2Co 12:8,9; Heb 1:6; Re 5:12.

50. As the object of faith. Ps 2:12; 1Pe 2:6; Jer 17:5,7; Joh 14:1.

51. As God, he redeems and purifies the Church to himself. Re 5:9; Tit 2:14.

52. As God, he presents the Church to himself. Eph 5:27; Jude 1:24,25.

53. Saints live to him as God. Ro 6:11; Ga 2:19; 2Co 5:15.

54. Acknowledged by his Apostles. Joh 20:28.

55. Acknowledged by the Old Testament saints. Ge 17:1; 48:15,16; 32:24-30; Ho 12:3-5; Jdj 6:22-24; 13:21,22; Job 19:25-27.

[o2bwise]

Quote:

etter yet why not ask EGW?

Well, Ellen White told me through her writings that if one relies on the Bible only, she is quite content.

I tend to stray from using her because as a prophet, she requires the same kind of examination as Scripture (comparing her words with other of her words) coupled with the fact that she wrote something like 100,000 pages.

[o2bwise]

Gerry, you ask too much.

I am editing my 2nd book now. I am not going to diverge from that to an extent you require.

Hope you understand.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: o2bwise

When did Jesus acquire a divine nature?

Answer:

A) When He was born of God.

When He was born of a woman.

When did Jesus acquire a human nature?

Answer:

A) When He was born of God.

When He was born of a woman.

How easy it is when one confesses Jesus to be the only begotten Son of God, thereby "making Himself equal with God!"

Blessings,

Tony

I would say for the 1st ? I would say neither.

For the second, it would be b

Better yet why not ask EGW?

Are you denying the fact that Jesus Christ was born of God?

[Gerr]

Well, Gerry you lose me.

Taking John 17:3 JUST as it reads:

YOU the ONLY true God -AND- Jesus Christ

And you assert that the above string of words is self-evidently saying that the Father IS NOT the ONLY true God and Jesus Himself is also the only true God?

And something just occurred to me. I used the reasoning that when people say things like "Dick -and- Jane," it is obvious to EVERYONE that Jane is not Dick.

But, there is another facet to this.

Not only do we find an "A and B" construction, Jesus said A is THE ONLY.

You totally lose me and at an extremely foundational, basic level.

People simply do not interpret sentence constructions in the way you insist.

Never. Never, never, never!

Blessings,

Tony

Never? Here are just two "nevers" who understand Jn 17:3 as I have been saying.

and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent—This is the only place where our Lord gives Himself this compound name, afterwards so current in apostolic preaching and writing. Here the terms are used in their strict signification—”JESUS,” because He “saves His people from their sins”; “CHRIST,” as anointed with the measureless fulness of the Holy Ghost for the exercise of His saving offices (see on Mt 1:16); “WHOM THOU HAST SENT,” in the plenitude of Divine Authority and Power, to save. “The very juxtaposition here of Jesus Christ with the Father is a proof, by implication, of our Lord’s Godhead. The knowledge of God and a creature could not be eternal life, and such an association of the one with the other would be inconceivable” [ALFORD].

Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., & Brown, D. (1997). Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (Jn 17:3). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

3. “And this,” He adds, “is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent.” The proper order of the words is, “That they may know Thee and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent, as the only true God.” Consequently, therefore, the Holy Spirit is also understood, because He is the Spirit of the Father and Son, as the substantial and consubstantial love of both. For the Father and Son are not two Gods, nor are the Father and Son and Holy Spirit three Gods; but the Trinity itself is the one only true God. And yet the Father is not the same as the Son, nor the Son the same as the Father, nor the Holy Spirit the same as the Father and the Son; for the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are three [persons], yet the Trinity itself is one God.

Augustine of Hippo. (1888). Lectures or Tractates on the Gospel according to St. John J. Gibb & J. Innes, Trans.). In P. Schaff (Ed.), A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, First Series, Volume VII: St. Augustin: Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homilies on the First Epistle of John, Soliloquies (P. Schaff, Ed.) (396). New York: Christian Literature Company.

The "you" in Jn 17:3 clearly identifies it as the Father, so one cannot say that Jesus Christ = the only true God any more than one can say Jane = Dick. But the juxtaposition of Jesus Christ with "you (the Father)the only true God" places Him in that same category. Notice what Augustine said. He probably knew the Greek of that day more intimately than any Greek scholars of today.

[Gibs]

Dr. Waite,

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The brightness of His express image was covered with humanity when here among us and in the verse above, He is sat down on the right hand of God, the Majesty on High.

He had no sin and could live in His Presence. Also if He had of fallen into sin the Father, Redeemer in Him would have left Him to return to the Father.

Then all would have been lost, God's only begotten Son and all of mankind.

No Deity would not have been lost, that is an impossibility.

But we know from Enoch, that after being face to face with God Enoch had to be made so he would not destroy men. Remember Moses and Moses didn't see Him face to face.

The Deity in Christ was the Father in Him, Redeemer to be and extension of Himself

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

Gerry, you ask too much.

I am editing my 2nd book now. I am not going to diverge from that to an extent you require.

Hope you understand.

You don't have to tackle them all at one time, but you can start with the first one. Do you believe or deny that Jesus is also Jehovah?

[Dr. Waite]

Dr. Waite,

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The brightness of His express image was covered with humanity when here among us and in the verse above, He is sat down on the right hand of God, the Majesty on High.

He had no sin and could live in His Presence. Also if He had of fallen into sin the Father, Redeemer in Him would have left Him to return to the Father.

Then all would have been lost, God's only begotten Son and all of mankind.

No Deity would not have been lost, that is an impossibility.

But we know from Enoch, that after being face to face with God Enoch had to be made so he would not destroy men. Remember Moses and Moses didn't see Him face to face.

The Deity in Christ was the Father in Him, Redeemer to be and extension of Himself

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

When did Jesus acquire a divine nature?

Answer:

A) When He was born of God.

When He was born of a woman.

Both A & B are non-answers. "The Word was God," and the Word was with God since eternity.

Quote:

When did Jesus acquire a human nature?

Answer:

A) When He was born of God.

When He was born of a woman.

How easy it is when one confesses Jesus to be the only begotten Son of God, thereby "making Himself equal with God!"

Blessings,

Tony

He became "Son of God" by declaration at His resurrection, His conception, after His baptism, and at the Mt of Transfiguration, not by virtue of origin by due to His appointed mission.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: o2bwise

When did Jesus acquire a divine nature?

Answer:

A) When He was born of God.

When He was born of a woman.

Both A & B are non-answers. "The Word was God," and the Word was with God since eternity.

Quote:

When did Jesus acquire a human nature?

Answer:

A) When He was born of God.

When He was born of a woman.

How easy it is when one confesses Jesus to be the only begotten Son of God, thereby "making Himself equal with God!"

Blessings,

Tony

He became "Son of God" by declaration at His resurrection, His conception, after His baptism, and at the Mt of Transfiguration, not by virtue of origin by due to His appointed mission.

John 1:1 tells us about an event that happened in the "beginning". Could the intelligent Doctor tell me exactly when this event took place?

[Gerr]

He was born of the Holy Ghost. In other words, Jesus Christ was born again. He came from heaven, God’s first-born, to the earth, and was born again.

[color:#3333FF]

The Bible uses "firstborn" in a literal sense and also metaphorically. Jesus cannot be the creator of everything and be the first created being.

[John317]

One of the definitions of "born" is "deriving or resulting from"

Remember that Ellen White says plainly that the life of the pre-incarnate Christ was "original, unborrowed, underived." That can only mean that the pre-incarnate Christ was not "born" since his life was not "derived." Christ's life was original with Himself. DA 530.

Ellen White is in complete harmony with the Bible on this point. The Bible and Ellen White both clearly teach that Christ is Jehovah Immanuel-- Jehovah meaning "the self-existent One."

So Christ is the Self-Existent-God-With-Us.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

In John 17:8, Jesus said:

"For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me."

When did Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, come out from the "only true God"? Was it before he was born of Mary on this earth or after he was born of Mary on this earth when the Son came out from the "only true God"?

John 17: 8 is talking about Christ coming from heaven into this world as our Redeemer.

Jesus Christ wasn't "born" in heaven. He was "born" for the first time here on this earth.

Ellen White says that when Christ was born on this earth, He became the Son of God in a new sense.

At that time the Father in heaven became Christ's literal daddy for the very first time.

[Gerr]

Not intelligent enough to know the date. Whenever that beginning was, the Word already was.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

One of the definitions of "born" is "deriving or resulting from"

Remember that Ellen White says plainly that the life of the pre-incarnate Christ was "original, unborrowed, underived." That can only mean that the pre-incarnate Christ was not "born" since his life was not "derived." Christ's life was original with Himself. DA 530.

Ellen White is in complete harmony with the Bible on this point. The Bible and Ellen White both clearly teach that Christ is Jehovah Immanuel-- Jehovah meaning "the self-existent One."

So Christ is the Self-Existent-God-With-Us.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

In John 17:8, Jesus said:

"For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me."

When did Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, come out from the "only true God"? Was it before he was born of Mary on this earth or after he was born of Mary on this earth when the Son came out from the "only true God"?

John 17: 8 is talking about Christ coming from heaven into this world as our Redeemer.

Jesus Christ wasn't "born" in heaven. He was "born" for the first time here on this earth.

Ellen White says that when Christ was born on this earth, He became the Son of God in a new sense.

At that time the Father in heaven became Christ's literal daddy for the very first time.

[Gibs]

Dr. Waite, You reply,

"If Jesus Christ became the "only begotten Son" when he was born of Mary, then his existence can be calculated in man's figures. But, if he became the "only begotten Son" way far back in eternity then his existence cannot be calculated in man's figures".

If Yahweh had a son before Bethlehem why would He need another then. The scripture you see states "HIS ONLY begotten Son".

No no Son before Mary's Babe, Jesus Christ in whom dwelt the Highest in all fullness.

That Babe was also call Emmanuel, God with us! Yes the ONE AND ONLY God, Yahweh the Father came in the body prepared Him.

His only existence as the man yes can be traced, the seed of David and further back, but His eternal preexistance was the Father in Him. You must see this is the one and only way Jesus could rightly state, "I am the first." No one is before the Father so you see this answers a great question of Jesus, and who am I.

He was the Father manifest in the flesh! Remember, "Philip, you've seen me you've seen the Father".

Before Bethlehem our Redeemer was the Father's Redeemer. His name at that time was Yahweh of Hosts. Isa 44:6.

Then at Bethlehem Our Father Gave to us in Jesus Christ His Redeemer to become our Redeemer.

So now He is OUR Redeemer, our's and the Father's. Yes the Father needed of Himself a Redeemer to reconcile the world back unto Himself in case of sin He knew would arise.

He begat His ONLY Begotten Son in the woman Mary, the body prepared for Him to dwell in. Then all in the world could have been saved by the way our Father and His Son made and few will come to it!

Only God could be our Saviour and He made the WAY, the wonderful way. That WAY is not hard or galling in no way. It is actually the only Blessed and peaceful way, a peace in the heart that tongue cannot express.

Oh yes, Jesus did rightly state, "I am the first and I am the last."

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gordon1]

Did Mary, the mother of Jesus, begat a son that was "the express image of his person," (Hebrews 1:3) and at the same time begat a son that was "made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death" (Hebrews 2:9)??

Well-divided Dr. Waite.

"Before Christ came in the likeness of men, he existed in the express image of his Father..."

"..Nevertheless he voluntarily emptied himself, and took the form of a servant..."

"..We see Jesus," writes Paul, "who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death.."

Youth Instructor - Dec. 20, 1900, par. 4,5.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

Did Mary, the mother of Jesus, begat a son that was "the express image of his person," (Hebrews 1:3) and at the same time begat a son that was "made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death" (Hebrews 2:9)??

Well-divided Dr. Waite.

"Before Christ came in the likeness of men, he existed in the express image of his Father..."

"..Nevertheless he voluntarily emptied himself, and took the form of a servant..."

"..We see Jesus," writes Paul, "who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death.."

Youth Instructor - Dec. 20, 1900, par. 4,5.

[o2bwise]

Hey Gerry,

Just want to quickly introduce a concept.

It is not just the idea that a phrase may theoretically be allowed to have a certain kind of meaning, it is the likelihood that a phrase would be meant to carry a meaning that is rather uncommon.

I guess I am being kind'a facetious, but quantum mechanics says, for example, that there is a theoretical probability that a sledgehammer could suddenly find itself on the other side of a foot thick wall of steel.

If you look at the verses I volunteered (where you replied with a "Huh?" of quite large font size), I hope you realize that your interpretation must assign to them an incredibly unlikely rendering.

And I could supply hundreds of such verses.

So in order to retain your view and accommodate hundreds of verses, you need for hundreds of sledgehammers to "find themselves" om the other side of one foot thick steel walls.

Take Care...

Tony

[Gerr]

I provided 55 sledgehammers, but you said you are to busy to deal with them.

[Gordon1]

Gerry, these look more like doctor's reflex hammers.

It seems to be a cut and paste from Moody Bible theologian R.A. Torrey out of Yale

Divinity School(1878). By contrast, our pioneers were Bible students, plain & simple.

There's little sense in basing our theology on the Sunday keepers point of view.

[Gibs]

In the beginning of His Way Our Father Possessed, extended, procured of Himself His Redeemer. His thoughts, His Word, His Power and all and to be the the needed Redeemer to come to be needed.

Joh 1:1, The only thing Joh 1:1 don't make clear is that the Word was Possessed of Himself.

Then Joh 1:14 and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us,

So again and again Our Father came in Him, God with us.

Just remember, There is but one God and Father of all!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

Ellen White who was a Seventh-day Adventist disagrees that "God sent His one and only Son into the world".

Jesus Christ was God's one and only "begotten Son" NOT God's "only Son". God also had created sons and adopted sons.

The word "begotten" is a translation of the Greek noun, monogenes.

Monogenes means "one of a kind,""one and only," "unique."

Monos=only, sole, one, solitary (cf. Matt 4: 4; John 17: 3)

Genes= genos= kind, sort, species (cf. Matt 13: 47)

You'll notice that Heb 11: 17 (KJV) refers to Isaac as Abraham's "only begotten son." But of course Abraham had other literal sons besides Isaac. So Isaac was not literally Abraham's "only begotten son."

There must be another meaning to "monogenes."

Isaac was certainly Abraham's unique son. He had no other son like Isaac. For one thing, Isaac was the son of promise. Isaac was the heir.

Compare this with the parable Jesus told about the Wicked Vinedressers. When they saw the landowner's son, they said, "This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize the land" (Matt 21: 38).

Jesus Christ is the heir. God has no other Son like Jesus. He is totally unique, not because of how He began to exist in heaven, but by virtue of the fact that it is through Him alone that all of us inherit everything-- Eden restored, including eternal life and immortality-- that the Father has promised in His one and only Son, the only One sent from Heaven into the world. 1 John 5: 11-13; Romans 8: 11-17; Gal 3: 26 to 4: 7.

[John317]

...our pioneers were Bible students, plain & simple.

There's little sense in basing our theology on the Sunday keepers point of view.

Yes, our pioneers were Bible students, and if alive today, they would be the first to tell you to study the Bible. They wouldn't tell us to base our beliefs on the writings and beliefs of the Pioneers. That's the same as basing our doctrines on church tradition.

No one is suggesting that you accept beliefs that aren't founded on Scripture.

But are you going to reject studying the Bible's teachings simply because they were believed by Sunday-keepers?

Sunday-keeping Protestants and Catholics teach many truths. We shouldn't base our rejection or acceptance on the basis of who does or does not believe something. The only basis should be whether it is found in the Word of God.

[Gibs]

Before Bethlehem He was not born, created or formed!

 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

He has told us who He and His Father are in plain easy to understand words.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

Ellen White who was a Seventh-day Adventist disagrees that "God sent His one and only Son into the world".

Jesus Christ was God's one and only "begotten Son" NOT God's "only Son". God also had created sons and adopted sons.

The word "begotten" is a translation of the Greek noun, monogenes.

Monogenes means "one of a kind,""one and only," "unique."

Monos=only, sole, one, solitary (cf. Matt 4: 4; John 17: 3)

Genes= genos= kind, sort, species (cf. Matt 13: 47)

You'll notice that Heb 11: 17 (KJV) refers to Isaac as Abraham's "only begotten son." But of course Abraham had other literal sons besides Isaac. So Isaac was not literally Abraham's "only begotten son."

There must be another meaning to "monogenes."

Isaac was certainly Abraham's unique son. He had no other son like Isaac. For one thing, Isaac was the son of promise. Isaac was the heir.

Compare this with the parable Jesus told about the Wicked Vinedressers. When they saw the landowner's son, they said, "This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize the land" (Matt 21: 38).

Jesus Christ is the heir. God has no other Son like Jesus. He is totally unique, not because of how He began to exist in heaven, but by virtue of the fact that it is through Him alone that all of us inherit everything-- Eden restored, including eternal life and immortality-- that the Father has promised in His one and only Son, the only One sent from Heaven into the world. 1 John 5: 11-13; Romans 8: 11-17; Gal 3: 26 to 4: 7.

Exactly