The Trinity?

[epaminondas]

Quote:

There is a difference between WHAT is said and what one believes it to mean.

And on that hangs the trinity and Sunday sacredness. It doesn't say Sunday is now the new Sabbath or Jesus and the Holy Spirit are gods along with the Father, but that's what it means. It says something like "the Father and I are one" and it really means "I am a god just like the Father."

We don't have a snowball's chance in hell of making trinitarians see the light.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

in order to FORCE FIT the Trinity doctrine, LITERALLY HUNDREDS OF PASSAGES MUST BE GIVEN A MEANING OTHER THAN ITS MOST APPARENT.

The trinitarians can't see what you've written, they can't hear you. It's as if you've written nothing or said nothing. They will just come back to one of their favourite points that has been proven false, like a dog returning to its vomit. And they'll use it again and again. Whatever solid case destroyed it doesn't matter to them. This case never existed, wasn't written down and wasn't uttered.

[epaminondas]

To me, this is one of two main issues, the other being the Christian confession of "Who do you say that I am?"

Blessings,

Tony

[Gerr]

Not only is White clearly saying Jesus was the only begotten Son of God before the incarnation, it is implied it is not a role.

Why do I say this?

If we adopt a "role" hypothesis (thus denying Jesus really is the only begotten Son of God), that role has no purpose until the incarnation.

There is nothing hypothetical about the "roles". Scripture clearly teaches it. I've pointed this out before, here it is again:

ESV | ‎Ro 1:4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,

37.horizoto assign someone to a particular task, function, or role—‘to appoint, to designate, to assign, to give a task to.’

‘those who had been designated for eternal life became believers’ Ac 13:48. Though τάσσω in Ac 13:48 has sometimes been interpreted as meaning ‘to choose,’ there seems to be far more involved than merely a matter of selection, since a relationship is specifically assigned.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (482). New York: United Bible Societies.

ESV | ‎Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

E Assign to a Role or Function (37.96–37.107)

37.96 tithemi - to assign someone to a particular task, function, or role—‘to appoint, to designate, to assign, to give a task to.’

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (482). New York: United Bible Societies.

ESV | ‎Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

chrio - (figurative extensions of meaning of χρίω and χρῖσμα ‘to anoint,’ not occurring in the NT) to assign a person to a task, with the implication of supernatural sanctions, blessing, and endowment—‘to anoint, to assign, to appoint, assignment, appointment.’

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (483). New York: United Bible Societies.

As for the term "only begotten Son" [monogenes] John 3:17 has already expounded on it, which means - unique, only one of a kind - and has nothing to do begetting in terms of origin. Jn 1 and Heb 1 clearly says jesus the Word IS God.

And I don't believe the roles of Jesus did not materialize until the incarnation. He was already acting the role of "LORD of host" before Bethlehem. Apparently, to the angels, Jesus may have appeared as though He was one of them. And when Christ came to Adam & Eve in the "cool of the day", how did He appear to them? I certainly doubt that He appeared to them like the God of glory in Dan 7.

And how did He appear to King Nebuchadnezzar when He came to the aid of the 3 Hebrews in the fiery furnace?

[Gerr]

So let me mention some rather foundational points.

1. The Trinity defies reason.

2. The Trinity defies Scripture

3. There is another belief that embraces reason and Scripture and guess what? (Wonder of wonders)

It is the one that confesses Christ to be the only begotten Son of God.

Defy Scripture if you will.

ESV | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ý2 He was in the beginning with God. ý3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

ESV | ýHeb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

ESV | ýMt 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

And shall I post Torrey's 55 again?

[Gerr]

The scripture is plain and easy enough for even a fifth grader on this and so I take my stand on the Holy Word. Christ said, "I and my Father are one!", and he didnt mean three.

The the two verses before Joh 10:30 and the context will confirm it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

You'll have to bear with my ignorance. I'm still in 3rd grade.

ESV | ýGe 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

ESV | ýMt 19:6 So they are no longer two but one flesh.

And didn't mean TWO either!

[Gibs]

Then you should understand very easily Gerry that even when Jesus said it Himself, "I and my Father are one". One Substance! You've seen me you've seen the Father!

Not another God with us but the Father came in the Body prepared Him and so we have, Emmanuel, God the Father with us covered with the flesh. Now of course in Spirit!

When sin and rebellion is finally taken care of never to rise again then our Father is able to be ALL IN ALL AGAIN! 1 Cor 15:28. That puts a Cinch on who is in Christ Jesus.

As a matter of fact the verses here in 1 Cor 15:24-28 hold profound meaning and understanding! These must be read filled with His Spirit!

I love this promise!,

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Na 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[o2bwise]

Quote:

Gerry:

Defy Scripture if you will.

To be rather straightforward, your spirit here sucks.

[o2bwise]

Gerry,

Quote:

Gerry:

declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,

For you to interpret the above as 100% needing to mean it is saying Christ was not really the Son of God and the above is reporting on God assigning Christ the role of a Son effectively places you as sufficiently rationally impaired to not be worth discussing this with. This is especially true if one is giving any deference to comparing scripture with scripture.

Your thought processes are quite dull.

My words are strong, but I believe they are absolutely true.

Take Care...

Tony

[Gerr]

Quote:

Gerry:

Defy Scripture if you will.

To be rather straightforward, your spirit here sucks.

Hmmmm. You shouldn't use words that you bristle with when directed back at you! That's what I've been indirectly trying to point out to you.

Jn 1:1-3 & Heb 1:8-10 clearly declares to be God. Aren't you the one defying Scripture?

[Guest]

What year did the SDA church adopt the trinity doctrine? I think it was 1980.

[Gerr]

Gerry,

Quote:

Gerry:

declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,

For you to interpret the above as 100% needing to mean it is saying Christ was not really the Son of God and the above is reporting on God assigning Christ the role of a Son effectively places you as sufficiently rationally impaired to not be worth discussing this with. This is especially true if one is giving any deference to comparing scripture with scripture.

Your thought processes are quite dull.

My words are strong, but I believe they are absolutely true.

Take Care...

Tony

One swallow does not "sufficiently rationally" mean spring! I

pointed out three. I may be dull but when I see three swallows, I think of spring!

[o2bwise]

Quote:

Hmmmm. You shouldn't use words that you bristle with

I said the Trinity doctrine defies Scripture. As to any individuals, this defiance might be one that he or she is unaware of.

You wrote that I defied Scripture.

Huge difference and one you apparently did not see.

With that, a retraction is in order.

[Gerr]

Then you should understand very easily Gerry that even when Jesus said it Himself, "I and my Father are one". One Substance! You've seen me you've seen the Father!

"In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived." DA 530.

My third grade level mind tells me Christ had a separate, original existence that is distinct from the Father. He was not someone just indwelt or "extended" by the Father.

[Guest]

The problem is He was born of woman on earth not in Heaven and then who would be His mother?

[Gordon1]

What year did the SDA church adopt the trinity doctrine? I think it was 1980.

Right Richard.

The 1980 General Conference Session in Dallas, Texas.

This put a new face on Adventism.

Was there repentance of the previous position?

Can believers in the Trinity be saved as readily as

believers in the Godhead?

If so, then it's not a salvational issue.

[o2bwise]

Quote:

in order to FORCE FIT the Trinity doctrine, LITERALLY HUNDREDS OF PASSAGES MUST BE GIVEN A MEANING OTHER THAN ITS MOST APPARENT.

The trinitarians can't see what you've written, they can't hear you. It's as if you've written nothing or said nothing. They will just come back to one of their favourite points that has been proven false, like a dog returning to its vomit. And they'll use it again and again. Whatever solid case destroyed it doesn't matter to them. This case never existed, wasn't written down and wasn't uttered.

Nothing short of astonishing. The concept is not even addressed.

[Guest]

I see..

Thanks Gordon :)

[o2bwise]

Gerry,

I am being prickly. Please accept my apologies.

Blessings,

Tony

[Gerr]

Quote:

Hmmmm. You shouldn't use words that you bristle with

I said the Trinity doctrine defies Scripture. As to any individuals, this defiance might be one that he or she is unaware of.

You wrote that I defied Scripture.

Huge difference and one you apparently did not see.

With that, a retraction is in order.

i

Since I hold to the trinitarian doctrine that you say defies Scripture, then I understoood it to mean that I am defying Scripture. I see no difference.

[Guest]

If He had a son before Bethlehem, where is the account of it. Why would He have another at Bethlehem?

The Redeemer extended from Himself was God equally to Himself, not a son, but came in His Only begotten Son at Bethlehem. He was Yahweh of Hosts at that time.

It was decreed in the councils of God that the only-begotten Son of God must leave His high command in heaven, and clothe His divinity with humanity, and come to the world. {4BC 1153.5}

Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a loveliness which words cannot describe. He then made known to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; that He had been pleading with His Father, and had obtained permission to give His own life as a ransom for the race, to bear their sins, and take the sentence of death upon Himself, thus opening a way whereby they might, through the merits of His blood, find pardon for past transgressions, and by obedience be brought back to the garden from which they were driven. Then they could again have access to the glorious, immortal fruit of the tree of life to which they had now forfeited all right.

Then joy, inexpressible joy, filled heaven, and the heavenly choir sang a song of praise and adoration. They touched their harps and sang a note higher than they had done before, because of the great mercy and condescension of God in yielding up His dearly Beloved to die for a race of rebels. Then praise and adoration was poured forth for the self-denial and sacrifice of Jesus, in consenting to leave the bosom of His Father, and choosing a life of suffering and anguish, and an ignominious death, that He might give life to others.

Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no." It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His darling Son to die for them. {EW 126, 127}

So you see Gibs, Jesus was already the only begotten, darling Son. Before the plan of salvation was even agreed on.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Hmmmm. You shouldn't use words that you bristle with

I said the Trinity doctrine defies Scripture. As to any individuals, this defiance might be one that he or she is unaware of.

You wrote that I defied Scripture.

Huge difference and one you apparently did not see.

With that, a retraction is in order.

My apologies. I was just asking a question.

[Gerr]

We are all so easily misunderstood that we ALL need to give each other plenty of slack. Apologies not necessary but accepted. Think nothing of it.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: RLH

What year did the SDA church adopt the trinity doctrine? I think it was 1980.

Right Richard.

The 1980 General Conference Session in Dallas, Texas.

Truth is progressive. Better late than never.

[o2bwise]

Thank you Gerry,

That is very gracious of you.

Take Care, Brother...

Tony