The Trinity?

[Gerr]

We are all agreed (I think) that the Bible says there is but one God.

But the problem is that the Bible mentions 3 who are all God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

So, what am I suppose to do? Deny what the Bible says about the Son and the Holy Spirit?

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: RLH

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Of course John317 will say this only applies to Jesus the Man. But the text doesn't say that. It simply says that this is the way it happened, not when it happened.

Put this with what Ellen White said about Jesus being the only begotten Son of God before the plan of salvation was even agreed upon, and it only makes sense that this happened somewhere in eternity past. Far outside of our comprehension.

That would mean Christ's life was derived from the Father.

But such a conclusion contradicts the plain statement of Ellen White that Christ's life was not derived.

If the words of Christ contradict the plain statement of Ellen White, whose words are you going to believe?

[John317]

Quote:

If Christ was a created being, He could NEVER have paid for the sins of the WHOLE world.

Why not? If one created being could get the whole world's people into trouble, then one created being who never committed any sin can pay for the sins of all.

I find it hard to believe you're serious, but I would like to see your question answered by SDAs who are non-Trinitarian.

[John317]

If the words of Christ contradict the plain statement of Ellen White, whose words are you going to believe?

The Bible is our standard.

I don't believe Ellen White contradicted the Scriptures. But my question is for those who are quoting Ellen White as an authority. I'm not asking those who do not accept her as a prophet of God.

[John317]

Do you believe Christ's life was derived?

Is Christ self-existent? Is He Jehovah, the self-existent One?

[Dr. Waite]

Do you believe Christ's life was derived?

Is Christ self-existent? Is He Jehovah, the self-existent One?

Ellen White states: "In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived."

Could the God the Father (the only true God) have given His Son "life, original, unborrowed, underived."?

Matthew 19:26 "But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

[John317]

Five Major Problems With The Trinity

Would you please summarize what you see as the five major problems with the Trinity?

Are these problems shown in the Bible?

The SDA understanding of the Trinity is not based on the Catholic view, nor on Greek philosophy, but only on the Scriptures and on the SOP.

[John317]

Ellen White states: "In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived."

Could the God the Father (the only true God) have given His Son "life, original, unborrowed, underived."?

Matthew 19:26 "But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

Does Matt 19: 26 mean that the Father could bring Christ into existence with a life that had no beginning?

[Gerr]

I just watched the video. Here they are.

1. Jesus and the Jews did not believe in the Trinity.

2. Trinity is not explained in Scripture.

3. No Jews who were converted to Christianity ever challenged the doctrine.

4. God is always addressed using the singular pronoun.

5. Jesus is not omniscient.

These might be good to discuss one by one.

[John317]

Five Major Problems With The Trinity

Here is an interesting, significant line from the website:

Quote:

While in the K.J.V, the Biblical usage of `Godhead' in Colossians 2: 9 translates to deity, and `the state of being God, Godhead',...

I agree with that understanding of the translation of Col 2: 9.

It means, "In Christ's body continually lives the whole fullness of the Godhead [the state of being God, deity]..." It isn't talking about the attributes or characteristics of God, such as love and kindness, but rather about the very essence or state of being God. That's exactly what Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon says about the noun theotes.

[John317]

Is it a salvational issue which of these view is correct? IMO, no.

I don't believe it necessarily is a salvational issue. I believe there will be people in heaven who held various beliefs on the topic of the Trinity.

That's the reason Ellen and James White didn't believe it should be a test of fellowship or of Christian character.

Many SDAs during the last two centuries have had disagreements over it.

That's not to say, though, that it isn't an important subject, especially today.

[John317]

I've heard people ask where the Bible uses the phrase, "God the Son."

The Common English Bible says, "No one has ever seen God.

God the only Son* [Gk theos monogenes],

who is at the Father’s side,

has made God known." {John 1: 18}

*The Majority Text and the Textus Receptus read "the only begotten Son" or "the one and only Son."

[John317]

I found this lecture which clearly shows 5 major problems with the trinity doctrine.

http://maranathamedia.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2902:five-major-problems-with-the-trinity&catid=119:trinity&Itemid=122

Let's discuss both the presentation by Assherick and the video that shows 5 major problems with the Trinity doctrine.

First, please briefly list the 5 major problems.

I'm hopeful you'll watch the Assherick presentation on the Trinity.

One of Assherick's main points is that since the Bible teaches "God is love," and since "love" is other-oriented rather than self-oriented, it means that God must always have had an equal with whom God could love and be loved by. The statement in the Bible that "God is love" is not saying that God is "loving" but that God's very Being IS essentially one of agape-love. In order for this to be true, God could never have been a single, solitary Being, because love is "giving" by its very nature. Assherick shows proof of this from many Scriptures, where the idea of God's love is immediately followed by the teaching that God gives Himself for others.

[epaminondas]

As if the limited words of any earthly language can begin to probe and understand the mind of God, whose thoughts are so much higher than we can even imagine.

And this, as we all know, can mean any nonsense is true, however ridiculous it is. Hail to all trinitarians.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

*The Majority Text and the Textus Receptus read "the only begotten Son" or "the one and only Son."

Yes, you don't even need the word "begotten." It's not used in all translations of the Greek monogenes in the New Testament. Monogenes is even used for the son of a widow, a daughter and Isaac, which, as we all know, wasn't the "only begotten." There was Ishmael, father of the Arabs, as well.

[Guest]

The SDA understanding of the Trinity is not based on the Catholic view, nor on Greek philosophy, but only on the Scriptures and on the SOP.

Just from watching this thread part time, I would have to say that your arguments at times require little leaps of faith, or assumption, that you don't even seem to notice. Because it is ingrained in you. I have tried to step outside of what is ingrained in me, and look at what the Bible really says, and doesn't say. I am seeing that if I go by what the scripture and SOP actually says, then I think my view has to change a little bit.

If Jesus really is God's Son like the Bible says, then the whole relationship makes sense, and brings me much closer to Jesus. Because now I can have a real relationship with Him. But if He is just playing a role, or something that cannot be understood because it is too mysterious, then, not so much.

[ClubV12]

Cannot be understood in it's FULLNESS RLH, we have only glimpes and see through a glass darkly.

I'm surprised at the major ego's displayed by some on this thread that all but declare the human language and their logic is enough to explore the mind of God and explain all things concerning His nature!

Such foolishness is breath taking in it's out right stupidity.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: RLH

Five Major Problems With The Trinity

Would you please summarize what you see as the five major problems with the Trinity?

Are these problems shown in the Bible?

The SDA understanding of the Trinity is not based on the Catholic view, nor on Greek philosophy, but only on the Scriptures and on the SOP.

I was just trying to help out Dr. Waite by turning his link into one you could click on. If you go back and look, you'll see it came from him. I haven't watched it. Was just trying to be a good neighbor. :)

[Guest]

Such foolishness is breath taking in it's out right stupidity.

So who are you calling stupid, and why? I could say the very same thing about your reasoning, and I would be correct. But I wouldn't do that because calling people stupid, that I disagree with, while claiming to be a Christian, would reveal some sort character flaw in my opinion.

A purpose defeating character flaw.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

I don't believe it necessarily is a salvational issue. I believe there will be people in heaven who held various beliefs on the topic of the Trinity.

Oh yeah? It clearly contravenes the first commandment - you have the Father as God, Jesus as God and the Holy Spirit as God.

Quote:

Isaiah 45:5 New International Version (©2011)

I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,

Is this one being talking, or a chorus of three? Anyone in his right mind will say this is just one being talking. Therefore, just one being is God, just like Jesus said in John 17:3, which does not exist in the trinitarian Bible.

Quote:

ACV: Exodus 34:14. for thou shall worship no other god. For Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Somehow I think having three gods, or like the household oil, three in one, is not such a good idea. Satan got most Christians to ditch the Sabbath in favour of a day supposedly honouring Jesus. That's to get people away from the God of creation - the Sabbath clearly is connected to creation. Now Satan gets Christians to create other gods, also in honour of Jesus and also the Holy Spirit. I don't think this is such a small matter.

[Guest]

Mat 5:22... and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Maybe I wouldn't do that today. I might do it tomorrow though.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Such foolishness is breath taking in it's out right stupidity.

Breathtaking is one word, as is outright. And its (the genitive declension of if) has no apostrophe.

Quote:

The educated is no less superior to the unlettered than man is to brute beasts.

Socrates

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Here's a link to one of the best discussions I've ever seen on the Godhead/Trinity issues:

http://eslmission.truth-is-life.org/docs...t%20Babylon.pdf

The author thoroughly examines and answers just about every question or objection that anyone has ever brought up against the concept of the "Trinity." He gives answers based on both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy.

It's 89 pages of verbose drivel. He doesn't look at John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 15:28, John 14:28, 1 Timothy 2:5 or anything that clearly sinks the trinity. Tell me, how can you say that this drongo "thoroughly examines and answers just about every question or objection that anyone has ever brought up against the concept of the "Trinity."? I've never pegged you for somebody blatantly dishonest. Was I wrong?

It is execrably bad - just blah, blah, blah for 89 pages. It's Ellen White this and Ellen White that. Seems to me the SDA Church is the Ellen White Church as far as the trinitarians are concerned. Obfuscation in the worst degree. It will only convince trinitarians.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

but only on the Scriptures and on the SOP.

Here are a few scriptures the official SDA view of the trinity is not based upon: John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 15:28, John 14:28, 1 Timothy 2:5. Of course, there are many more, but why go for overkill?

[Guest]

Quote:

Such foolishness is breath taking in it's out right stupidity.

Breathtaking is one word, as is outright. And its (the genitive declension of if) has no apostrophe.

Quote:

The educated is no less superior to the unlettered than man is to brute beasts.

Socrates

I can't believe Socrates said that!