The Trinity?

[Gibs]

What makes it so strange is the fact the scriptures are so plain on this and yet many want to say it is amystery that cannot be fathomed.

Jesus tells you plain out, I say just hear Him, He knows you know.

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Believe me, the Son has revealed it all!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gustave]

What dishonors the Son is to say that He is not really a Son, but something else. The more I see you talk about this, the more I am convinced.

What dishonors the Son is to say that He was not the Son 'Eternally'...

[Gibs]

I am sorry to let you know that Jesus Christ was not the ONLY begotten Son eternally. He was born at Bethlehem of Mary, woman, Man. Heh, heh, ONLY meand "sole" none other.

He had to be born of Man as He had to overcome as man and not God! He was conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit, God the Father!

So give me scripture one came about before Jesus Christ was born of Mary.

I can give you scripture there is none, no created born or formed before!

The Father was in Jesus Christ the ONLY begotten in all fullness, of course He was God, and yes Emmanuel, God with us!

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gustave]

Jesus had to get permission from His Father, before the plan of salvation could be put into place. Did you know that?

I know that this was directed to John317 but where do you get...

...That Jesus got permission before the plan of salvation could be put into place?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: RLH

Jesus had to get permission from His Father, before the plan of salvation could be put into place. Did you know that?

I know that this was directed to John317 but where do you get...

...That Jesus got permission before the plan of salvation could be put into place?

I got it directly from the Prophet. But being a Roman Catholic yourself, you wouldn't understand that, and I wouldn't expect you to. But here's the quote anyway for you, or anybody who may want to see it. It's from Ellen G. White:

Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a loveliness which words cannot describe. He then made known to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; that He had been pleading with His Father, and had obtained permission to give His own life as a ransom for the race, to bear their sins, and take the sentence of death upon Himself, thus opening a way whereby they might, through the merits of His blood, find pardon for past transgressions, and by obedience be brought back to the garden from which they were driven. Then they could again have access to the glorious, immortal fruit of the tree of life to which they had now forfeited all right.

Then joy, inexpressible joy, filled heaven, and the heavenly choir sang a song of praise and adoration. They touched their harps and sang a note higher than they had done before, because of the great mercy and condescension of God in yielding up His dearly Beloved to die for a race of rebels. Then praise and adoration was poured forth for the self-denial and sacrifice of Jesus, in consenting to leave the bosom of His Father, and choosing a life of suffering and anguish, and an ignominious death, that He might give life to others.

Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no." It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His darling Son to die for them. {Early Writings, pp 126, 127}

[phkrause]

Awesome statement by EGW, I was wondering where you got that, now I know. This also clearly shows that Jesus was there with the Father, besides all the other statements she makes about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in her writings. Thanks RLH for posting this.

[Gibs]

You folks need to know that EGW knew that God cannot die and the man Jesus that died could not have been on the scene until born of His mother, yes at Bethlehem.

There is just one solution to this, if it was the Son of man and God it had to have been at the time of committing His dedication to lay down His life, it was not in heaven back before Bethlehem. Impssible!

Jesus has given us the full truth of this and I have given them to you folk, but you do not take Him at His Word.

Yes Yahweh our Father not only gave Himself in our Redeemer but He gave His ONLY begotten beloved Son born of Mary and the liability was great as He took upon Himself our fallen nature.

If He had not have overcome, the Father would have lost His ONLY begotten Son and no man, not one would have been saved.

No God would not have died, an impossibility!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gustave]

I got it directly from the Prophet. But being a Roman Catholic yourself, you wouldn't understand that, and I wouldn't expect you to. But here's the quote anyway for you, or anybody who may want to see it. It's from Ellen G. White:

Ok, so because your prophet claimed Jesus "had to get permission" into order to "attempt" to save humanity...

...That's how it all settles out in your mind.

...What do you think of the following?

Philippians 2,6

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

That indicates that it wasn't God the Son's "idea" to save humanity in the way it was executed...

...It's saying it was God the Father's "will".

...And God the Son did the will of God the Father.

Again,

Luke 22,41

And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, BUT thine, be done.

That's sounds to me like it was highly unlikely God the Son came up to God The Father....

...And said 'golly gee pop's - could I get your permission to try to save humanity"?

...Then, when the rubber mets the road Christ get's cold feet!

Again,

Isaiah 53,10

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; HE hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Eph 3,11

To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which HE purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

You're right RLH, being Catholic I don't understand how Christ asked The Father's permission....

...To come to earth and "attempt", "to try" to save humanity.

...When the Bible says it was the Father's will.

...And Christ Himself confirms in Scripture it was the Father's will ( or plan as you call it ).

Have you considered the possibility that your prophet may have been chasing the dragon....

...I.E. "shot herself up with opium" or something else?

[Guest]

She didn't say it wasn't the Father's will, or that it was Jesus' idea, or any of that. Just that He didn't let Him go easily.

Those are red herrings my friend.

[Gustave]

She didn't say it wasn't the Father's will, or that it was Jesus' idea, or any of that. Just that He didn't let Him go easily.

Those are red herrings my friend.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Christ on earth, in human flesh, displayed the IDENTICAL relationship to His Father....

...That He had ETERNALLY.

...So is it a shock Jesus prayed to His Father?

...Hardly - it was simply a visible demonstration to us of what He had been doing ETERNALLY.

Didn't you say Jesus is the Father is the Holy Spirit is Jesus etc. ad infinitum? How come one God prays to another God which is really the first God?

Philippians 2:5 is one of Paul's less clear texts. You will see the "thought it not robbery" part can be translated as "did not aspire to obtain by force." Here is the literal Greek of the word concerned. But of course, it won't matter the slightest to you. It really says Jesus did not aspire to the position of God, as Satan did, but instead humbled himself etc. But, of course, you couldn't care less.

Quote:

ACV: Isaiah Chapter 35

[4] Say to those who are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not. Behold, your God will come with vengeance, with the recompense of God. He will come and save you.

[5] Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

[6] Then the lame man shall leap as a hart, and the tongue of the mute shall sing. For waters in the wilderness shall break out, and streams in the desert.

Superficially it may look like Jesus. But did Jesus ever cause "waters in the wilderness" to "break out, and streams in the desert.?" No. May this not refer to the New Earth, where the throne of God will be, which will fulfill all predicted here? Yes. Can you therefore stubbornly insist on calling that a reference to Jesus? Yes, the world never had a lack of the obstinately obtuse. Will what I've said here make any impression on you or anyone who is rabidly trinitarian? No.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Do you REALLY think you're going to solve that issue on this thread? An issue which has roiled the Christological study for 1600+ years now? I think not.

It can be solved in a few paragraphs and less than five minutes. A sine qua non (something without which it cannot stand) of the trinitarian position is that both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are god/s. Question: where can we get the low down on this from someone who is completely trustworthy? Answer: Jesus addressed this topic directly: speaking to the Father, Jesus said:

Quote:

ACV: John 17:3. And this is eternal life, that they should know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou sent.

There goes one of the essential pillars on which the trinitarian temple rested. The temple collapsed, killing many trinitarians.

What's so difficult about that? Can't you understand it?

Quote:

I have yet to hear a single non-Trinitarian here - including yourself, Tony - entertain the thought that just maybe proper conviction can fall into either of a couple of Scripturally sound models, without disrespecting the intelligence of a dissenting perspective.

What if the "dissenting perspective" is really, really thick? I don't mean just your common or garden variety of stupidity, but stupid beyond all comprehension. E.g., they cannot even understand and take notice of the part above about John 17:3. Should we then go against the Bible and consider them intelligent?

Quote:

ACV: Proverbs Chapter 26

[4] Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like to him.

[5] Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

The first verse means don't treat absolute nonsense as if it had merit, otherwise you will later treat any nonsense as if it had merit. The second verse means don't treat absolute nonsense as if it had merit, otherwise the BSA who uttered it will regard himself as wise. Tell him, "you're talking nonsense, shut up and sit down."

Satan's tool, political correctness, is very much against Proverbs 26: 4 and 5. Satan says anyone is entitled to his opinion, even if he knows nothing about the subject. Satan also says we should treat any person's opinion seriously and with dignity. Is it any wonder there is so much falsehood about God doing the rounds?

[epaminondas]

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

As I discussed with others on another thread, I stepped out of this thread a while back, because it has devolved down to boasts and demands to address points which, if one wishes to go back through the earliest portions of this thread with an honest eye, were indeed addressed and/or discussed at length already. Some points have been addressed three and four times already.

[Gibs]

This issue is solved by all who have heard our Lord, and is revealed clearly!

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Hear Him and you will know and understand!

Blessings!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

You're right RLH, being Catholic I don't understand how Christ asked The Father's permission....

As a Catholic you don't have to argue using the Bible. You can just say "we Catholics don't believe in the Bible only. We also believe in the Pope, the saints, tradition and what else. The Pope said there's a trinity, so there's a trinity, whatever the Bible may say about it." That's an honest approach, instead of trying to twist the Bible, which Catholics don't need to make a point, to say what you want it to say.

[o2bwise]

Hi Ted,

Quote:

but it does appear you're just as caught up in the "antagonist/protagonist" thing of arguing for argument's sake - just as some of the Trinitarian posters are.

Do you REALLY think you're going to solve that issue on this thread? An issue which has roiled the Christological study for 1600+ years now? I think not.

As for me, I will not be so vain as to think I have this totally figured out.

Can you understand how it's difficult for me to even read beyond this string?

Vainly,

Tony

[Gustave]

Didn't you say Jesus is the Father is the Holy Spirit is Jesus etc. ad infinitum? How come one God prays to another God which is really the first God?

[Gustave]

Quote:

You're right RLH, being Catholic I don't understand how Christ asked The Father's permission....

As a Catholic you don't have to argue using the Bible. You can just say "we Catholics don't believe in the Bible only. We also believe in the Pope, the saints, tradition and what else. The Pope said there's a trinity, so there's a trinity, whatever the Bible may say about it." That's an honest approach, instead of trying to twist the Bible, which Catholics don't need to make a point, to say what you want it to say.

The difference between you and I is that I can use sola scriptura to establish my beliefs...

...While you can't.

To be frank I'm pretty sure I've spent more time in your Archives then you have...

...I know exactly what the early SDA's believed.

...And have tracked Ellen White's confirmation of those beliefs in her recorded teachings.

[Ted Oplinger]

Hi Ted,

Quote:

but it does appear you're just as caught up in the "antagonist/protagonist" thing of arguing for argument's sake - just as some of the Trinitarian posters are.

Do you REALLY think you're going to solve that issue on this thread? An issue which has roiled the Christological study for 1600+ years now? I think not.

As for me, I will not be so vain as to think I have this totally figured out.

Can you understand how it's difficult for me to even read beyond this string?

Vainly,

Tony

Actually, Tony, if you think you've got it all figured out after 1600+ yrs of hot debate on the point, kudos to you.

Point: if even the most advanced Trinitarian model still has unraveled ends which cause people to scratch their heads a bit...in other words, it doesn't concretely answer every single facet of the issue - it hasn't solved the puzzle.

Point: if even the most advanced non-Trinitarian model likewise still has unraveled ends which don't concretely answer every facet of the issue - it, also, hasn't solved the puzzle.

Kudos if you've got it all figured out. I remain looking at some of your points and conclude those ends are still unsolved.

Personally, since the issue is still debatable, the puzzle is not solved. With the atmosphere within this thread being what it is, all I am willing to say is we must simply agree to disagree. Maybe one day later, we can come back to the issue and discuss points sans the egos.

I will stick with what the Lord has shown me to date, and keep studying and putting pieces together.

Blessings,

[Guest]

RLH, you said

Originally Posted By: RLH

Jesus HAD TO get permission FROM His Father, before the plan of salvation could be put into place. Did you know that?

Jesus asked for the Father's permission to do something the Father told Jesus to do?

...I suppose you have material from the same prophet that says this?

I said it like that, yes, but she didn't. Look at what the Prophet said, she got it right. :)

[Gustave]

I said it like that, yes, but she didn't. Look at what the Prophet said, she got it right.

Here,

Ellen White,

1854, Supplement to the Christian Experience and Views of Ellen G. White,

p. 47

Said my accompanying angel, "He is in close converse with his Father." The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with his Father. Three times he was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time he came from the Father we could see his person; and his countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with loveliness, such as words cannot express. He then made known to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; that he had been pleading with his Father, and had obtained his consent to give his life a ransom, to bear their sins, and take the sentence of death upon himself to open a way that man might find pardon for transgressing God's command

Consent

1 : to give assent or approval

Synonyms

acquiesce, agree, assent, come round, accede, subscribe

The Father finally, after a struggle, agreed with Christ / acquiesced to Christ's wish / came around to Christ's idea / eventually subscribed - of course this was after Christ pleaded with the Father.

SDA MICHAEL CHRIST: "Gee Dad, I can give my life to save mankind"?.

The Father, the 1st time: NO WAY!

SDA Michael Christ: "ahh come on Dad, I'm almost sure I can do it"!

The Father, the 2nd time: NO WAY!

SDA MICHAEL CHRIST: "*pout, frown* Please let me try"!

The Father: "OK, but if you screw up I'm gonna have to eternally annihilate you".

The Bible says that Jesus was chosen to be The Christ before Adam and Eve were even created RLH...

...If this is the case WHO made this determination.

...If as Ellen says, The Father caved in subsequent to Adam and Eve sinning?

[epaminondas]

Quote:

God is; Father, Son and Holy Spirit....

...The Father isn't God because He's the Father, He is God because He co-owns the ONE Nature which is God.

OK, I now get it that you don't say they're all one and the same. From the part in bold in the quote you say either:

• God is a committee consisting of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit
• God is a fourth singular entity consisting of the above three just like one car is made up of many parts

These are the only existing possibilities.

The two parts in italics from the quote directly contradict each other. This cannot be right in any rational world. What have you been smoking?

"co-owns the ONE Nature which is God"? Now you're turning God into a species. Because they share certain characteristics, they're all God, you say. Like Peking Ducks are all Peking Ducks because they can interbreed and the resultant young are fertile, like the parents, and the same will be true of their young. Boy oh boy. You must have potent weed where you live. We now have a God species with three members. Talk about endangered.

I leave Ellen White and the early SDA's (and the present ones, for that matter) completely aside. I have too many reservations about Ellen White.

As for "sola scriptura," here's one of the many parts of scripture you ignore:

Quote:

ACV: John Chapter 17

[3] And this is eternal life, that they should know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou sent.

Jesus himself said the Father is the only true God. You can't get past that. No amount of blah, blah, blah will change that. Nothing coming before that or after that in the Bible can change that. I know, I know, the Pope said differently.

Just for an encore, here's another:

Quote:

ACV: I Timothy 2:5. For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Jesus Christ,

Yes, you beat me hands down for verbosity. But when it comes to facts, you won't recognize one if it rears up and hits you in the teeth at noon on a cloudless day.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

It's "crystal clear" in saying that even though Christ was 'GOD'....

...Christ didn't SIEZE / use THAT as a reason to reject the will of the Father.

...And Christians are called to do our best to have that mind in us.

It's hardly superficial, it's speaking of Christ's sacrifice....

..."According to the Scriptures".

It happened, just as I predicted.

[Gustave]

OK, I now get it that you don't say they're all one and the same. From the part in bold in the quote you say either:

•God is a committee consisting of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit

•God is a fourth singular entity consisting of the above three just like one car is made up of many parts

None of the above Epaminondas...

...Here, let me help you understand.

The following is pulled from a Seventh-day Adventist Apologetic article...

...That was crafted by John Harvey Kellogg.

...PRIOR to him accepting the truth of the Trinity.

...And subsequently being expelled from the SDA Church.

In other words the following is John Harvey Kellogg's apologetic...

...At a time when he was acting under the direction of Ellen White.

...And her husband James White.

John Harvey Kellogg, page 4

http://docs.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH18801125-V56-22__B.pdf#view=fit

Our reviewer then goes on at some length to show that according to our view the death of Christ was but a human sacrifice, and finally concludes, " Hence the Doctor's theory claims that the essence of God, the Supreme Being, who created and upholds all things from the beginning, was made into corruptible flesh, was killed by men," etc. The above statement is entirely correct, with a slight addition; the insertion of the words, " does not " just before the word " claim "will make the statement correct. As it stands, it is as wide a departure from the truth as it can be. The

only grounds upon which our reviewer could be justified in making such a statement would be the supposition

on his part that we believe in the doctrine of the trinity; but he very well knows, from positions taken

and arguments used in previous articles, that we do not agree with him on this subject any better than on that

of the nature of the soul. WE BELIEVE IN BUT ONE DEITY, God, who is a unity, NOT a compound 'being. We think the Bible as well as common sense sustains this view. Says Eld. W., "'His trinitarianism' seems to shackle him much." We repel the charge of " trinitarianism " without the slightest hesitation. We do not

believe in a triune God, as before remarked. And we will not, as did our reviewer in a. former article, leave the reader in doubt as to our position on this point. We are utterly at a loss to comprehend how our reviewer could have blundered so strangely as to suppose us to share in so gross an. error as we believe the orthodox doctrine of the trinity to be.

Just to make sure I understand you - you are claiming...

...That Ellen White and her fellow SDA leaders were WRONG.

...When they said that God was NOT a compound "Being".

...But that God was to be understood as a "UNITY" of two Personalities.

...With ONLY the Father being 'God' in the ultimate sense.

Do I have that right?

What you are saying is that God is the Father ALONE, period...

...No "unity", "no compound Being".

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Just to make sure I understand you - you are claiming...

...That Ellen White and her fellow SDA leaders were WRONG.

...When they said that God was NOT a compound "Being".

...But that God was to be understood as a "UNITY" of two Personalities.

...With ONLY the Father being 'God' in the ultimate sense.

Do I have that right?

What you are saying is that God is the Father ALONE, period...

...No "unity", "no compound Being".

Jesus said it. His word is good enough for me. So, yes, that's my position. Hardly original, as Jesus said it first.

And as for the first bit, the two possibilities I mentioned are the only existing ones - there are no other. So, either your god is a committee of three or a fourth entity.

And I've never been near the SDA archives. I read the Bible. There's no doubt, the SDA church is right about the Sabbath. That's why I'm an SDA.