The Trinity?

[Gibs]

Dr Waite,

It could only be Yahweh of Hosts before Bethlehem appearing as He would when the time came for Him to enter the body prepared for Him.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me.

And to o2bwise, How could God have had a son before the woman He was born of first came on the scene. I never in my life ever seen such mixed up thinking.

Being born is a thing only delegated to man to procreate. God Himself creates and puts spirit, life in creatures, angels do not procreate among themselves.

Before man there is no "born" of any. Now hear this,

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Now see who is your Saviour,

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[o2bwise]

Quote:

No, man cannot fathom 'God'...

...God is a mystery.

You state a fallacy unless your position is that the above is universal in its application and thus the entirety of what we call "theology" (the study of God) must be a mystery.

Of course, this requires that the Trinity position cannot be one that is identified as necessarily true.

Do you go that far, Gustave? If your answer is "No," how exactly far do you go and what is your biblical support for going as far as you do?

The same judgment you mete unto me, metes unto you.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: o2bwise

We are told we can even understand the Godhead "through the things that are made" (Romans 1).

Of whom one is a son, one inherits his nature.

In eternity past, God had a Son and thus the Christ became the Son of God and inherited the nature of His Father.

~2000 years ago, Jesus was "born of a woman, born under the law" and thus inherited the nature of man and became the son of man.

Believing in A is not tantamount to a denial of B.

Blessings,

Tony

No, man cannot fathom 'God'...

...God is a mystery.

1 Tim 3,16

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm

We can know who God is if the Son has revealed this to us. It is the Son of God who reveals to us who God is.

"All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him]." Luke 10:22

The Son revealed to me that his Father is the "only true God".

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

[Gustave]

Quote:

No, man cannot fathom 'God'...

...God is a mystery.

You state a fallacy unless your position is that the above is universal in its application and thus the entirety of what we call "theology" (the study of God) must be a mystery.

Of course, this requires that the Trinity position cannot be one that is identified as necessarily true.

Do you go that far, Gustave? If your answer is "No," how exactly far do you go and what is your biblical support for going as far as you do?

The same judgment you mete unto me, metes unto you.

Scripture and reason itself tells us that a finite creation ( us ) can't define explicitly the infinite God...

...Your 'theology' has removed the mystery.

...That which Scripture says is WITHOUT controversy.

Scripture tells us that God is infinite and tells us what CAN'T do.....

...Such as God can't MUTATE - something Ellen White affirmed feverishly.

[Gustave]

We can know who God is if the Son has revealed this to us. It is the Son of God who reveals to us who God is.

"All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him]." Luke 10:22

The Son revealed to me that his Father is the "only true God".

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

Jesus was / is 'God' manifest bodily....

...Jesus was / is FULLY 'God' in the flesh.

...Are you willing to state any condition or combinations of conditions.

...Would allow for God the Father to eternally cease to exist?

It was God the Father who revealed to Peter who Jesus was.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr Waite

We can know who God is if the Son has revealed this to us. It is the Son of God who reveals to us who God is.

"All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him]." Luke 10:22

The Son revealed to me that his Father is the "only true God".

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

Jesus was / is 'God' manifest bodily....

...Jesus was / is FULLY 'God' in the flesh.

...Are you willing to state any condition or combinations of conditions.

...Would allow for God the Father to eternally cease to exist?

It was God the Father who revealed to Peter who Jesus was.

1 Timothy 6:15-16: "Which in his times he shall show, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen."

Who is the "he" in verse 15 who "shall show"? Who is the person "who only hath immortality" that the "he" in verse 15 reveals?

[Gustave]

Timothy 6:15-16: "Which in his times he shall show, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen."

Who is the "he" in verse 15 who "shall show"? Who is the person "who only hath immortality" that the "he" in verse 15 reveals?

Again, in your belief, would "any" condition or combination of conditions exist...

...To cause the ONE mentioned in Verse 15 to eternally cease to exist?

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

Timothy 6:15-16: "Which in his times he shall show, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen."

Who is the "he" in verse 15 who "shall show"? Who is the person "who only hath immortality" that the "he" in verse 15 reveals?

Again, in your belief, would "any" condition or combination of conditions exist...

...To cause the ONE mentioned in Verse 15 to eternally cease to exist?

You did not answer my two questions. Answer the two questions and I will answer your question.

[o2bwise]

Quote:

Scripture and reason itself tells us that a finite creation ( us ) can't define explicitly the infinite God...

...Your 'theology' has removed the mystery.

I have no idea how God can create. I have no idea how the Son could be incarnated. I have no idea of a lot of things about God.

They are "a mystery" to me.

So, how is it according to your understanding, that my 'theology' has removed the mystery?

And what exactly do you mean by an explicit definition and how would it differ from an implicit one?

Since according to you we cannot explicitly define God, please implicitly define God for me and clarify the difference (what you mean by implicit versus explicit).

Tony

[Gustave]

You did not answer my two questions. Answer the two questions and I will answer your question.

God the Son & God the Father....

...In the unity of The Holy Spirit.

Now, answer my question.

[Gustave]

I have no idea how God can create. I have no idea how the Son could be incarnated. I have no idea of a lot of things about God.

[o2bwise]

Hey Gustave,

Quote:

Gustave:

By affirming a form of tri-theism...

...Ellen White affirmed God the Father and God the Son were ONE.

...In the same way Christ and His disciples were "one".

...Were Christ's disciples 'God'?

I might be wrong, but I am perplexed that you assigned the above to me and am inclined to believe you have little idea of what my view is.

Thanks though (seriously),

Tony

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

You did not answer my two questions. Answer the two questions and I will answer your question.

God the Son & God the Father....

...In the unity of The Holy Spirit.

Now, answer my question.

Facts:

1. The "he" is the only begotten Son of the Father (the only true God).

2. The "he" was begotten in eternity (so far back in time that it cannot be calculated in human figures).

3. The person and being "who only hath immortality" is the Father(the only true God).

4. The Son of the Father is a distinct being and person from the Father and he is NOT the person and being "who only hath immortality".

Conditions: Since the Son of the Father is NOT the person and being "who only hath immortality", he had the choice to sin and could have sinned and lost the "life within himself" that was given to him from the Father (but he chose to NOT sin).

[Gibs]

Dr Waite,

Then how could Jesus proclaim in truth then "I am the first"

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Cannot you see the only way is the fact they are of one substance, hense Jesus also stated,

"I and my Father are one!" And yes numerically 1,ONE! Read verses Joh 10:28,29 and get the context if you don't believe.

You see in Christ the Father was with us!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gustave]

Facts:

1. The "he" is the only begotten Son of the Father (the only true God).

2. The "he" was begotten in eternity (so far back in time that it cannot be calculated in human figures).

3. The person and being "who only hath immortality" is the Father(the only true God).

4. The Son of the Father is a distinct being and person from the Father and he is NOT the person and being "who only hath immortality".

Conditions: Since the Son of the Father is NOT the person and being "who only hath immortality", he had the choice to sin and could have sinned and lost the "life within himself" that was given to him from the Father (but he chose to NOT sin).

Dr. Waite, if you would be so kind to offer commentary...

...On the following Scripture(s).

...And my comments as to them.

Isaiah 35,4

Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your GOD will come with vengeance, even GOD with a recompence; HE will come and save you. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

Matthew 11,1

And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities. Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, And said unto him, Art thou HE that should come, or do we look for another? Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them

When Isaiah said that the Israelite "God" would come and save them...

...Which 'God' was this in your understanding?

...The text states that whatever 'God' this was.

...WOULD FOR SURE come and "save them".

Could the 'God' spoken of in Isaiah have chosen to sin Dr. Waite?

[Gustave]

I might be wrong, but I am perplexed that you assigned the above to me and am inclined to believe you have little idea of what my view is.

Thanks though (seriously),

Tony

In what way then would it be that the Father and Son are 'One'?

...Let's see how far off the mark I am by your answer.

[Dr. Waite]

Dr Waite,

Then how could Jesus proclaim in truth then "I am the first"

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Cannot you see the only way is the fact they are of one substance, hense Jesus also stated,

"I and my Father are one!" And yes numerically 1,ONE! Read verses Joh 10:28,29 and get the context if you don't believe.

You see in Christ the Father was with us!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

"The law and the gospel go hand in hand. The one is the complement of the other. The law without faith in the gospel of Christ cannot save the transgressor of law. The gospel without the law is inefficient and powerless. The law and the gospel are a perfect whole. The Lord Jesus laid the foundation of the building, and He lays "the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it." Zech. 4:7. He is the author and finisher of our faith, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. The two blended--the gospel of Christ and the law of God--produce the love and faith unfeigned. {OHC 141.4}

"And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Rev. 1:17, 18. {TMK 360.1}

John, exiled upon the Isle of Patmos, . . . hears a voice saying, "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last" (Rev. 1:11). At the sound of the voice John falls down in astonishment as if dead. He is unable to bear the sight of the divine glory. But a hand raises John up, and the voice he remembers as the voice of his Master. He is strengthened and can endure to talk with the Lord Jesus." {TMK 360.2}

We trace Christ all through the Old Testament and the New. "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." {RH, June 8, 1897 par. 9}

"Here we have the Alpha of Genesis and the Omega of Revelation. The blessing is promised to all those who keep the commandments of God, and who co-operate with him in the proclamation of the third angel's message. "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." That which Christ has spoken in the Old Testament is for all the world. What he has said in reference to his commandments is not yea and nay, but yea and amen." {RH, June 8, 1897 par. 10}

"As our Creator and Redeemer, Christ has embraced the world in His arms of infinite love. All things belong to Him by original and mediatorial efficiency. He is the first and the last, and the efficiency of everything. All the value that there is in any human being is from Christ, and all belongs to Him. All that we have was entrusted to us in order to fulfil His mediatorial plan." {ST, April 22, 1903 par. 1}

"In the divine plan, evil was foreseen and provided for. A remedy was provided sufficient for complete restoration. But in this plan man himself must act a part. Humanity is the instrument through which God works for humanity. As Christ labored for sinners; so man must labor, that humanity may be brought into connection with divinity." {ST, April 22, 1903 par. 2}

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

Facts:

1. The "he" is the only begotten Son of the Father (the only true God).

2. The "he" was begotten in eternity (so far back in time that it cannot be calculated in human figures).

3. The person and being "who only hath immortality" is the Father(the only true God).

4. The Son of the Father is a distinct being and person from the Father and he is NOT the person and being "who only hath immortality".

Conditions: Since the Son of the Father is NOT the person and being "who only hath immortality", he had the choice to sin and could have sinned and lost the "life within himself" that was given to him from the Father (but he chose to NOT sin).

Dr. Waite, if you would be so kind to offer commentary...

...On the following Scripture(s).

...And my comments as to them.

Isaiah 35,4

Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your GOD will come with vengeance, even GOD with a recompence; HE will come and save you. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

Matthew 11,1

And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities. Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, And said unto him, Art thou HE that should come, or do we look for another? Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them

When Isaiah said that the Israelite "God" would come and save them...

...Which 'God' was this in your understanding?

...The text states that whatever 'God' this was.

...WOULD FOR SURE come and "save them".

Could the 'God' spoken of in Isaiah have chosen to sin Dr. Waite?

I believe that the entire chapter 35 is speaking of the new earth when the ransomed of the LORD shall return and come to Zion.

[Gustave]

I believe that the entire chapter 35 is speaking of the new earth when the ransomed of the LORD shall return and come to Zion.

Then answer my question...

...And, we note that your interpretation of Isaiah.

...Defaults into Jesus' answer to John's disciples as being negative.

...As in "NO, I'M NOT THE ONE YOU HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR".

[o2bwise]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

I believe that the entire chapter 35 is speaking of the new earth when the ransomed of the LORD shall return and come to Zion.

Then answer my question...

...And, we note that your interpretation of Isaiah.

...Defaults into Jesus' answer to John's disciples as being negative.

...As in "NO, I'M NOT THE ONE YOU HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR".

Hi Gustave,

Isn't the good doctor seeing Isaiah referring to the future and the disciples waiting referring to the first advent?

If so, how does one repudiate the other?

Blessings,

Tony

[o2bwise]

Originally Posted By: Tony

I might be wrong, but I am perplexed that you assigned the above to me and am inclined to believe you have little idea of what my view is.

Thanks though (seriously),

Tony

In what way then would it be that the Father and Son are 'One'?

...Let's see how far off the mark I am by your answer.

I suppose in the broadest sense, they reflect unconditional love so perfectly that from the standpoint of character, each reveals each other.

Blessings,

Tony

[Gustave]

Hi Gustave,

Isn't the good doctor seeing Isaiah referring to the future and the disciples waiting referring to the first advent?

If so, how does one repudiate the other?

Christ is the final answer and there is no doubt He confirmed that specific Scripture...

...Was speaking of Him at the time the question was asked.

Matthew 3

In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For THIS IS HE that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

That's confirmation that Isaiah was indeed speaking of Christ...

...Christ confirms it is.

Now, the Good doctor is absolutely living up to what Ellen White and the other SDA pioneers taught....

...I don't agree with it obviously but one can'T fault him with not being a theological Adventist.

[Gustave]

I suppose in the broadest sense, they reflect unconditional love so perfectly that from the standpoint of character, each reveals each other.

Blessings,

Tony

So, like Ellen White you believe that the way the Person's are one....

...In that they are one in purpose, character, etc.

...Like Jesus and His disciples.

Do I have that right?

[o2bwise]

Hi Gustave,

Yup, you have it right.

I'd also add that being the born Son of God and thus acquiring divinity, while a finite being could only reflect agape finitely, I do believe the Son who alone could fully enter into counsel with His Father, is also the only One who could be "one" with the Father to a level reaching the Father, so to speak (infinitely).

Know what I mean?

Anyway, yeah, Gustave.

Take Care...

Tony

[o2bwise]

Hi epam,

Say, I am just curious of your own position on Christ.

Did He exist before the incarnation? If yes, how so and what was His nature?

I am kind of perplexed that you don't see begotten as applied to Christ as naturally linked to "Son" - by this I mean, all children are offspring and the word begotten, at least to many, naturally denotes the process wherein the proceeding forth (birth) of an offspring occurs.

That link: begotten Son for me leads to such a natural and seamless interpretation.

How not so for you?

Just curious...

Tony