The Trinity?

[epaminondas]

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

"A knowledge of God is the foundation of all true education and of all true service.

...It is this alone that can make us like God in character." Ministry of Healing 409.

If the knowledge of God can alone make us like God in character,

it would be a very cruel God to require of us this knowledge, yet keep it hidden.

But the Roman priests and others claim:

"It's a mystery, you can't understand, don't go there, it's sacred ground."

Many do not realize that Satan is continually seeking to block access to

the one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1 Tim. 2:5)

It's true that the secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deut. 29:29)

And don't forget, Satan also has "knowledge of God." Does this make him like God in character?

[epaminondas]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Since you are calling into question the intelligence of people who can't follow your line of reasoning, what would you call a person who can't see or hear or understand when the Bible plainly says - Jesus Christ is God, Jn 1:1, Heb 1:8,9, and the Holy Spirit is God, Ac 5:4, Heb 3:7-15 cf Ps 95?

Its sad Gerry, some actually think there salvation is based on believing or not believing in the Trinity.

I recall the first two of the ten commandments dealing with the fact that there is only one God and not to have other gods. Now if I count Jesus as god, the Father as God and the Holy Spirit as god, I get three gods. Or are they all one third god each? I can't remember reading anything like that anywhere in the Bible. Somehow the trinity doesn't seem to sit well with the first two commandments. One can ask about the trinity as one prisoner, as he was about to be hanged, asked about the gallows of the hangman: are you sure this thing is safe?

[LynnDel]

How important is it that we know who the Holy Spirit is when we are praying to receive the Holy Spirit in Latter Rain power?

LD

[LynnDel]

Yes, Gordon, I attended in person. There were a lot of people. I didn't count. Maybe 100 or more.

LD

[LynnDel]

Quote:

In the interest of total transparency, I would that the presentation also included the secret meetings between Barnhouse and Walter Martin with certain Adventist leaders (Froom and Roy Allen Anderson) where the denomination was going to be labeled a cult partly for its non-trinitarian writings, including piles from Ellen White. Also, the morphology of official writings such as Questions On Doctrine, the 27 Fundamentals, and various Sabbath School Quarterlies. Also the remarkable silence with respect to the denomination informing the laity of the pioneer position and what their biblical justification of it was. Even including Jones and Waggoner.

That information was included in the presentations, o2bwise. Also about LeRoy Froom forming the trinity doctrine currently espoused by the SDA church. In researching this morning, I came across this site: http://www.enjoying-the-spirit-filled-life.com/introduction-trinity-adventism.html. Does anyone know Bruce Bivens and if his work is reputable? He wrote a book on the Holy Spirit called "Are We Missing Something Here?"

LD

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

Its sad Gerry, some actually think there salvation is based on believing or not believing in the Trinity. [/quote']

epaminondas states: "I recall the first two of the ten commandments dealing with the fact that there is only one God and not to have other gods. Now if I count Jesus as god, the Father as God and the Holy Spirit as god, I get three gods. Or are they all one third god each? I can't remember reading anything like that anywhere in the Bible. Somehow the trinity doesn't seem to sit well with the first two commandments. One can ask about the trinity as one prisoner, as he was about to be hanged, asked about the gallows of the hangman: are you sure this thing is safe?"

The current SDA fundamental beliefs state that "God is a unity of three co-eternal persons". The god that the persons who constructed this SDA belief worship is a unity or committee. Did Jesus Christ, the Son of the only true God, ever teach that "God" is a unity or committee?

[Gibs]

Be very, very careful about this thing of a trinity!

Ex 34:13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

Ex 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

De 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

Mt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord ty God, and him only shalt thou serve.

[Gerr]

But of course, in Lala land the straightforward and clear is ignored in favour of the vague and fanciful.

Some Christians have been troubled by misinformed Jehovah’s Witnesses who appear at their doors and argue that the Word (namely, the one who became flesh) was not actually God but was some lesser reality or a lower deity than God. Those misguided interpreters have sought to argue their case from the fact that the Greek word for God (theos) here does not have an article. Possessing a little Greek knowledge can sometimes lead to incorrect deductions and to very inappropriate theological conclusions. Simply because the Greek term “Word” (logos) here has an article and the Greek term for “God” (theos) lacks the article does not mean that the term “God” should be rendered as “a god.” In this predicate nominative construction the Greek verb “to be,” when linking the noun “God,” is used in a generic or adjectival manner. It does not therefore mean that the Word is “a god” as over against “God” or that the Word merely possesses some attributes of the “divine nature.” As Beasley-Murray has pointed out, there is another Greek word (theios) for that type of divine reference, for instance in 2 Pet 1:4, where believers are said to participate in the “divine nature.” The meaning of John 1:1 is not merely that the Word has divine characteristics but that the Word participates in the reality called God. That Word was true deity, and John wanted there to be no doubt about it.

Borchert, G. L. (1996). Vol. 25A: John 1–11. The New American Commentary (103–104). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

including piles from Ellen White..

suddenly the serious thread became a visual oddity, and Pam completely lost it!

[Gibs]

By the same Analogy trinitarians use you and I are a trinity also.

There is me, myself and then I!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

Its sad Gerry, some actually think there salvation is based on believing or not believing in the Trinity.

Yes Peter, and some believe their salvation is based upon believing, or not believing in the Sabbath.

There is nothing sad about either case, both contain an element of truth, since we are saved by faith (belief).

But belief in the True God must surely take precedence over belief in one of His Ten Laws.

"A knowledge of God is the foundation of all true education and of all true service.

...It is this alone that can make us like God in character." Ministry of Healing 409.

Here begin 55 pages entitled "The Essential Knowledge".

Only Christ taken into the heart, and every aspect of the life submitted to Him will save us, not a belief in a doctrine for no doctrine will save us. There will be many in heaven who have had a very imperfect understanding of doctrine, but have totally surrendered themselves to the Holy Spirit's leading. In fact, there will be those in heaven who have never even heard the name of Jesus.

[phkrause]

Only Christ taken into the heart, and every aspect of the life submitted to Him will save us, not a belief in a doctrine for no doctrine will save us. There will be many in heaven who have had a very imperfect understanding of doctrine, but have totally surrendered themselves to the Holy Spirit's leading. In fact, there will be those in heaven who have never even heard the name of Jesus.

[Gibs]

The big thing is, since there is only ONE God then Jesus cannot be another God but has to be the one and only God Yahweh the Father with us in the flesh which is a verified truth?

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Then,

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Then,

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And then the Holy Spirit is not another God either,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gordon1]

Yes, Gordon, I attended in person. There were a lot of people. I didn't count. Maybe 100 or more.

Thanks LynnDel, I'm sure it was a rich experience, as are most Adventist gatherings of diverse source & understanding. And a good excuse for a drive.

The Barnhouse/Martin affair with the General Conference (late 1950s) can be read in "With Cloak and Dagger" by H.H. Meyers. It was published by Hartland Publications (Rapidan, Virginia) but may be available as a free download.

I've heard of Bruce Bivens. Reputable? If he's rightly dividing the Word, that's good. Few seem to do that.

Yes it would be wise to understand the meaning of spirit, Holy Spirit, etc. Many try to define these words from a couple of New Testament passages. GONG! The concept was laid down and understood LONG before this, in the O.T. It requires flipping a few more pages than a quarterly, but what a rich reward. Not many today will venture for deeper word study with that clunker Strong's Concordance, but it's both possible and profitable.

[Gordon1]

More frankly, Strong's is the open door to Hebrew and Greek Concordance searches.

Logical and accessible, only takes time and desire.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Did Jesus Christ, the Son of the only true God, ever teach that "God" is a unity or committee?

Not in any of the Bibles I ever read. Did I miss something?

[epaminondas]

Only Christ taken into the heart, and every aspect of the life submitted to Him will save us, not a belief in a doctrine for no doctrine will save us. There will be many in heaven who have had a very imperfect understanding of doctrine, but have totally surrendered themselves to the Holy Spirit's leading. In fact, there will be those in heaven who have never even heard the name of Jesus.

What a nice, syrupy platitude. I nearly cried.

[epaminondas]

Originally Posted By: epaminondas

But of course, in Lala land the straightforward and clear is ignored in favour of the vague and fanciful.

Some Christians have been troubled by misinformed Jehovah’s Witnesses who appear at their doors and argue that the Word (namely, the one who became flesh) was not actually God but was some lesser reality or a lower deity than God. Those misguided interpreters have sought to argue their case from the fact that the Greek word for God (theos) here does not have an article. Possessing a little Greek knowledge can sometimes lead to incorrect deductions and to very inappropriate theological conclusions. Simply because the Greek term “Word” (logos) here has an article and the Greek term for “God” (theos) lacks the article does not mean that the term “God” should be rendered as “a god.” In this predicate nominative construction the Greek verb “to be,” when linking the noun “God,” is used in a generic or adjectival manner. It does not therefore mean that the Word is “a god” as over against “God” or that the Word merely possesses some attributes of the “divine nature.” As Beasley-Murray has pointed out, there is another Greek word (theios) for that type of divine reference, for instance in 2 Pet 1:4, where believers are said to participate in the “divine nature.” The meaning of John 1:1 is not merely that the Word has divine characteristics but that the Word participates in the reality called God. That Word was true deity, and John wanted there to be no doubt about it.

Borchert, G. L. (1996). Vol. 25A: John 1–11. The New American Commentary (103–104). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

[Gibs]

Jesus Christ clearly was a man born of woman whose Father was God. He Truly was one of us. But not as the JW's put it. I've talked to a number of them and their clergy and I stump them, they don't come around no more and their church is close!

This had to be the case as Redeemer of men he had to be a man and overcome as a man and not God. But what is astounding is it pleased the Father that His Fullness would dwell in Him

Then He Jesus could indeed overcome Satan as a man as long as He didn't reach within and use the Power of Yahweh the Father in Him.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; - And so He, Jesus was fully God in a body and yet overcome Satan as a man and not as God the Father.

The fact of the union of a man who had our Fallen Nature with The Father Deity the Great and Only One True God is the mystery our finite minds can't fathom.

The truth of what I have stated is His remarks back to Philip,

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

So you must see dear ones that Jesus was not another God, but He was the One and Only True God in the flesh of Him. So Truly He was God the Father with us, the Only One there is!

This cannot be denied, not matter how you try to twist and turn it, the Truth of the matter continues to stand.

The straight out statement of Jesus Himself is even twisted, Joh 10:30 I and my father are one.! Read verses Joh 10:28,29 for context, yes the one is the numeral 1!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

[

So, Latin is more accurate than both Greek and English here.

Since when is a translation more accurate than the original?

Quote:

As for John 1:1 as a whole:

Quote:

Wikipedia: The proper rendering into English from the original Koine Greek text continues to be a source of vigorous debate among Bible translators.

It is therefore ridiculous to say that John 1:1 is clear with general unanimity about its meaning. Rather go for what is clear and people don't disagree about.

s o

ESV | ýDt 19:15 “A single witness shall not suffice..... Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established.

You have been quibbling about the absence of a definite article in Jn 1:1. Now, how about Heb 1:8,9 where it does occur?

ESV | ýHeb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. ý9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

v8 sy ho thronos ho theos eis ho aion ksi ho aion ho v9 dia houtos ho theos sy ho theos

[Gordon1]

Only Christ taken into the heart, and every aspect of the life submitted to Him will save us, not a belief in a doctrine for no doctrine will save us. There will be many in heaven who have had a very imperfect understanding of doctrine, but have totally surrendered themselves to the Holy Spirit's leading. In fact, there will be those in heaven who have never even heard the name of Jesus.

Yes Joeb, submission to Christ is our only need,

but it's also part of His doctrine (#1322 - didache - teaching or instruction).

Rejection of Christ's teachings (doctrine) cannot help us heavenward, as I'm sure you would agree.

The word doctrine has received a bad rap.

[Gordon1]

Yes, Gordon, I attended in person. There were a lot of people. I didn't count. Maybe 100 or more.

I omitted to commend you for stepping outside the box,

esp. when those who do so are frequently railed upon and marginalized.

But beyond that, did you learn anything new or uncover fresh insights, esp. those not (yet?) voiced here?

[Gibs]

All you fellers are doing now is quibling, that thar is not needed!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Tom Wetmore]

Gibs, on that point we can agree. But I would not see it as only just now. This particular topic has been nearly 1800 posts of quibbling.

[Gibs]

You are right Tom as Jesus has laid it out very clear if one wants to see, but each to his own. Like you say the topic is well aired and should be closed.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.