The Trinity?

[Gerr]

ESV | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ýýNASB95 | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ýýNIV84 | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ýýNRSV | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ýýKJV 1900 | ýJn 1:1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NLT: In the beginning the Word already existed.

The Word was with God,

and the Word was God.

LEB: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 This one was in the beginning with God.

NKJ: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

HCSB: In the beginning was the Word, c

and the Word was with God,

and the Word was God.

NET: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.

Biblical Studies Press. (2006). The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible (Jn 1:1). Biblical Studies Press.

NCV: In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was already with God in the beginning.

GOD'S WORD Translation. 1995 (Jn 1:1–2). Grand Rapids: Baker Publishing Group.

ISV: In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He existed in the beginning with God

RSV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God;

AMPLIFIED: IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself

DARBY: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

Darby, J. N. (1996). The Holy Scriptures: A new translation from the original languages (Jn 1:1–2). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

YLT: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; 2this one was in the beginning with God;

TNIV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning

IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

The Cambridge Paragraph Bible: Of the Authorized English Version. 1873 (cxix). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity. This Word was in the beginning in fellowship with God the Father.

Wuest, K. S. (1961). The New Testament: An expanded translation (Jn 1:1–5). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

ESV | ýHeb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. ý9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

ESV | ýIs 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

[Gibs]

For sure Gerry as it was the Father in Him and not another God. The man Jesus that was the body prepared for The Fathers indwelling was another person so Jesus was God The Father with us without doubt.

So to worship Him is to worship the Father or visa versa.

The Holy Spirit is what God The Father is and not another person or God!

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

We MUST worship Him in SPIRIT and in TRUTH because He is SPIRIT and in TRUTH as nothing else is accepable!

How many truly are?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

ESV | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ýýNASB95 | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ýýNIV84 | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ýýNRSV | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ýýKJV 1900 | ýJn 1:1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NLT: In the beginning the Word already existed.

The Word was with God,

and the Word was God.

LEB: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 This one was in the beginning with God.

NKJ: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

HCSB: In the beginning was the Word, c

and the Word was with God,

and the Word was God.

NET: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.

Biblical Studies Press. (2006). The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible (Jn 1:1). Biblical Studies Press.

NCV: In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was already with God in the beginning.

GOD'S WORD Translation. 1995 (Jn 1:1–2). Grand Rapids: Baker Publishing Group.

ISV: In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He existed in the beginning with God

RSV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God;

AMPLIFIED: IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself

DARBY: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

Darby, J. N. (1996). The Holy Scriptures: A new translation from the original languages (Jn 1:1–2). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

YLT: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; 2this one was in the beginning with God;

TNIV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning

IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

The Cambridge Paragraph Bible: Of the Authorized English Version. 1873 (cxix). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity. This Word was in the beginning in fellowship with God the Father.

Wuest, K. S. (1961). The New Testament: An expanded translation (Jn 1:1–5). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

ESV | ýHeb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. ý9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

ESV | ýIs 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Can't refute that.

sky

[skyblue888]

Of the Father Jesus said, "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God." John 17:3.

Of Jesus Christ it is written, "And we know that the Son of God is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." 1 John 5:20.

In Revelation 1:8 Christ is called "the Almighty."

We are dealing with the mystery of the Godhead.

Of Christ Moses said, "Lord, Thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever Thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even FROM EVERLASTING TO EVERLASTING, Thou art God." Psalm 90:1-2; 1 Cor.10:4.

In Romans 9:5 the Holy Spirit, speaking through Paul, declares that "Christ is over all, God blessed forever. Amen."

So "from everlasting to everlasting" Christ is God essentially and in the highest sense.

Jesus said, "'I am the resurrection and the life.' In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. The divinity of Christ is the believer's assurance of eternal life." The Desire of Ages,530.

sky

[Gibs]

The Divinity in Christ was the Father in Him and so fully God in a body but not another God.

The Godhead is no mystery if one has let Jesus revesl it.

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

ESV | ýRe 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!” ý14 And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

[Gibs]

Timing, timing,

Re 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

And notice SEVEN things, all heaven can bestow!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[epaminondas]

ESV | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ýýNASB95 | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ýýNIV84 | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ýýNRSV | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ýýKJV 1900 | ýJn 1:1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NLT: In the beginning the Word already existed.

The Word was with God,

and the Word was God.

LEB: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 This one was in the beginning with God.

NKJ: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

HCSB: In the beginning was the Word, c

and the Word was with God,

and the Word was God.

NET: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.

Biblical Studies Press. (2006). The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible (Jn 1:1). Biblical Studies Press.

NCV: In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was already with God in the beginning.

GOD'S WORD Translation. 1995 (Jn 1:1–2). Grand Rapids: Baker Publishing Group.

ISV: In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He existed in the beginning with God

RSV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God;

AMPLIFIED: IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself

DARBY: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

Darby, J. N. (1996). The Holy Scriptures: A new translation from the original languages (Jn 1:1–2). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

YLT: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; 2this one was in the beginning with God;

TNIV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning

IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

The Cambridge Paragraph Bible: Of the Authorized English Version. 1873 (cxix). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity. This Word was in the beginning in fellowship with God the Father.

Wuest, K. S. (1961). The New Testament: An expanded translation (Jn 1:1–5). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

ESV | ýHeb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. ý9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

ESV | ýIs 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Of the Father Jesus said, "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God." John 17:3.

And where in the Bible is this ever overturned? Is it still true? If it is true, can anything in conflict with this be true? A wall painted only blue cannot be painted red as well.

[o2bwise]

Quote:

Could the Father beget anything not Divine?

As you don't even know exactly what "beget" in the sense of the Father being responsible for the existence of Jesus means, this is pure speculation by the trinitarian philosophers in Lala Land. And to put the cherry on the cake, "divine" is an ambiguous word. Two uncertainties in one short sentence. You'll get your PhD in Theology Summa cum laude.

Well, e, you know...

You're a bright guy. begotten next to Son? Think there might be a link? Like how sons are offspring? Fire up some brain cells, dude!

Any by the way, Gordon, a clear non-trinitarian is stating his belief so no sense positing the thought of others onto his own.

Blessings,

Tony

[Dr. Waite]

I have a question for Dr. Cabalo.

Facts: (1) the Son of God said that his Father is the "only true God". John 17:3; and (2) "the only true God" does not have another god that is his god.

If the Son of God is in fact "fully God" or God in the sense that his Father is "fully God" not having another god as his god, how can that in fact be true if the Son of God has another person or being who is his God?

[whatisthis]

The Son of Man, however, does have a Father who is his/His God.

[o2bwise]

epaminondas,

Excellent post, in my opinion.

The more fully and precisely one defines the process by which the truth is extracted from the Word of God...

the more deference to that process indicts the Trinity as Bible falsehood and acclaims the truth that there is one [original=true] God, the Father and He has one begotten Son, Jesus Christ, (divine, god) by inheritance.

Blessings,

Tony

[epaminondas]

The Son of Man, however, does have a Father who is his/His God.

Is this "Son of Man" anyone different than Jesus, also known as the Son of God? If so, then anything true for the Son of Man must also be true for Jesus and the Son of God, as they are all one and the same.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Please notice that Ellen White says that Christ and the Father were of the same (identical) substance. What substance? The very essence of God. Only true God shares in the essence/substance of God. Similarly only humans share in the essence of humanity.

What exactly is this "substance" or "essence" you're on about? Is it matter, cells, chemical elements or compounds, energy or what? If you don't know exactly what it is, how can you say they were of the same substance/essence?

[Gerr]

I have a question for Dr. Cabalo.

Facts: (1) the Son of God said that his Father is the "only true God". John 17:3; and (2) "the only true God" does not have another god that is his god.

If the Son of God is in fact "fully God" or God in the sense that his Father is "fully God" not having another god as his god, how can that in fact be true if the Son of God has another person or being who is his God?

This are also facts:

ESV | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ýýNASB95 | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ýýNIV84 | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ýýNRSV | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ýýKJV 1900 | ýJn 1:1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NLT: In the beginning the Word already existed.

The Word was with God,

and the Word was God.

LEB: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 This one was in the beginning with God.

NKJ: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

HCSB: In the beginning was the Word, c

and the Word was with God,

and the Word was God.

NET: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.

Biblical Studies Press. (2006). The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible (Jn 1:1). Biblical Studies Press.

NCV: In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was already with God in the beginning.

GOD'S WORD Translation. 1995 (Jn 1:1–2). Grand Rapids: Baker Publishing Group.

ISV: In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He existed in the beginning with God

RSV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God;

AMPLIFIED: IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself

DARBY: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

Darby, J. N. (1996). The Holy Scriptures: A new translation from the original languages (Jn 1:1–2). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

YLT: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; 2this one was in the beginning with God;

TNIV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning

IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

The Cambridge Paragraph Bible: Of the Authorized English Version. 1873 (cxix). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity. This Word was in the beginning in fellowship with God the Father.

Wuest, K. S. (1961). The New Testament: An expanded translation (Jn 1:1–5). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

ESV | ýHeb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. ý9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

ESV | ýIs 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

THEREFORE, since your facts and my facts are ALL facts, what's your conclusion?

[Gibs]

The answer dear ones to the dilema brought forth is the Fact that the one and ONLY TRUE GOD was in Jesus Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. 2 Cor 5:19 and also Jesus told Philip, "you have seen me you have seen the Father!"

Mercy sakes, how can it be clearer or plainer!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Waite]

MY CONCLUSION:

The Son of God said that his Father is the only true God. Since the Father is the only true God, that excludes all other persons or beings from being the only true God.

John 1:1 says that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with "the God" (noun) and the Word God (adjective).

There was a time when there was a beginning and at that time there was the Word. Then, at the time of the beginning or shortly thereafter the Word was with "the God" and the Word was God by nature.

There is a distinction between the Son of God and the only true God, the Son of God has a Father and has a God who he worships. The only true God (John 17:3) does NOT have a Father and does NOT have a God who he worships.

If I am wrong in my conclusion, please give me a plain thus saith the LORD to show my error.

[Gibs]

The possession of Yahweh of Hosts in the beginning was a division of the Father Himself. He extended Himself to be HIS Redeemer in the beginning and then to be OUR Redeemer He had to come in the body prepared for Him and that was Jessus Christ of Nazareth.

There was no Son of God and man until Bethlehem. "Only Begotten" carries the meaning, Sole! None Other!

Our Redeemer had to be of a man, with the indwelling of the ONE AND ONLY DEITY! Why is because the overcoming of Satan must be of man and not God, taking no power but was inherit in the first Adam, but now with our fallen nature as a deficit.

He too had to learn obedience as He too had taken upon Himself our fallen nature from the fact He was born of woman aprox. 4,000 yrs after the fall of Adam.

We have exactly all the power He had, Christ in you. Now Christ in you is the Father in you too as that was Who was in Christ Jesus in ALL FULLNESS!

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

[o2bwise]

Hi Dr Waite,

Quote:

Dr Waite:

If I am wrong in my conclusion, please give me a plain thus saith the LORD to show my error.

I am unable to do so.

Blessings,

Tony

[Dr. Waite]

Gibs:

You say that there was NO Son of God until Bethlehem.

Please explain this verse:

“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; being made so much better than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son?” Hebrews 1:1-5.

This verse plainly says that God by his Son made the worlds. How could God have made the worlds by his Son if He did not have a Son before Bethlehem?

[o2bwise]

Hi epaminondas,

Quote:

epaminondas:

Is this "Son of Man" anyone different than Jesus, also known as the Son of God? If so, then anything true for the Son of Man must also be true for Jesus and the Son of God, as they are all one and the same.

Well, if you can allow for change to occur with TIME, there are possibilities, at least theoretically.

My personal understanding is that God did what we can best understand as "gave birth" to a Son and that as such the Son of God inherited the nature of His Father.

And then at the incarnation, the Son of God was incarnated and was born of a woman, born under the law, at which time as a consequence, His divine attributes were laid aside and He acquired a human nature.

In summary, the above idea is dependent on the view that Christ had a preincarnate existence and at some point in time, a change occurred. Of course, this view is in conflict with your assertion that they must be "one and the same."

Philippians 2:5-7

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Quote:

epaminondas:

What exactly is this "substance" or "essence" you're on about? Is it matter, cells, chemical elements or compounds, energy or what? If you don't know exactly what it is, how can you say they were of the same substance/essence?

If you are unable to qualify the essence of the Father, why does the idea that God could beget a Son be acceptable ONLY if you are able to qualify the Father's essence?

Wouldn't such a thought process require you to deny the Father for the reason that you lack the capacity that you are unable to qualify His essence?

How can you assign this inability as necessarily denying one set of circumstances and yet not be consistent in assigning the exact same rationale to ANOTHER set of circumstances (thereby needing to be an atheist, denying the existence of God, our Father because you are unable to qualify His essence)?

Blessings,

Tony

[Gerr]

MY CONCLUSION:

The Son of God said that his Father is the only true God. Since the Father is the only true God, that excludes all other persons or beings from being the only true God.

John 1:1 says that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with "the God" (noun) and the Word God (adjective).

I have consulted several Greek authorities and all of them consider "theos" in "the Word was God" as a noun, nominative, singular. Sources: ESV interlinear, NASB interlinear, NRSV interlinear, KJV interlinear, DBL Greek, WSNTDICT,

Quote:

There was a time when there was a beginning and at that time there was the Word. Then, at the time of the beginning or shortly thereafter the Word was with "the God" and the Word was God by nature.

ESV | ýIs 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

5703 òÇã [ʿad /ad/] n m. From 5710; TWOT 1565a; GK 6329; 49 occurrences; AV translates as “ever” 41 times, “everlasting” twice, “end” once, “eternity” once, “ever + 5769” once, “evermore” once, “old” once, and “perpetually” once. 1 perpetuity, for ever, continuing future. 1A ancient (of past time). 1B for ever (of future time). 1B1 of continuous existence. 1C for ever (of God’s existence).

Strong, J. (2001). Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

ESV | ýMt 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).

NASB95 | ýMic 5:2 “But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.”

ESV | ýRe 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

ESV | ýRe 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Quote:

There is a distinction between the Son of God and the only true God, the Son of God has a Father and has a God who he worships. The only true God (John 17:3) does NOT have a Father and does NOT have a God who he worships.

If I am wrong in my conclusion, please give me a plain thus saith the LORD to show my error.

How and when did Jesus become the Son of God?

1. At His conception & birth - ESV | ýLk 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. ý32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.

2. At His baptism - ESV | ýMt 3:17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

3. By horizo declaration/decree at His resurrection, NASB95 | ýRo 1:4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,

The Bible clearly says there is only one God, yet it speaks of 3 persons who are all called "God". It is not without reason that many have concluded that there is One God in three persons, hence the Trinity concept.

[Gibs]

Gibs:

You say that there was NO Son of God until Bethlehem.

Please explain this verse:

“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; being made so much better than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son?” Hebrews 1:1-5.

This verse plainly says that God by his Son made the worlds. How could God have made the worlds by his Son if He did not have a Son before Bethlehem?

Yes, at Bethlehem He was Begotten, notice it was decreed, but not till Bethlehem did it happen, - Ps 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

He Jesus never set down on the right hand of God until He came and died and now is in Heaven.

Jesus the Son of man and God, did not create the worlds, it was Yahweh of Hosts the possession of the Father Himself who came in Jesus Christ at Bethlehem. Our Father, the Omniscient One, yes had decreed, set it, Jesus Christ to be the body prepared, yes!

He knew us all before anything, before the world.

Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Pr 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Pr 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

Pr 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

Pr 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

Pr 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

Pr 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

Pr 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

Pr 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

Yahweh of Hosts who came in Jesus was the great creator, not Jesus the the son of man and God. He too being the son of man proves He Jesus could not be the Creator!

Yahweh speaks of the past present and future the same as He sees the future as well as the past and present!

Notice this,

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Yes don't you see the Father extended, Yahweh of Hosts, is now in the Son and this can be said of Him in Truth, but you see Yahweh of Hosts who now is a union with Jesus Christ is the Creator of whom the man Jesus was born in His world.

Jesus now sets down on the right hand of the Majesty on High.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Heb 1:4 ¶ Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[phkrause]

Gibs:

You say that there was NO Son of God until Bethlehem.

Please explain this verse:

“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; being made so much better than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son?” Hebrews 1:1-5.

This verse plainly says that God by his Son made the worlds. How could God have made the worlds by his Son if He did not have a Son before Bethlehem?

Excellent question Dr Waite. So if this verse is saying what I believe its saying? Which is that the Son is the Creator of the universe or at least this earth, than the verse's that Gerry has been posting are telling us that same thing! Here is this verse from the CJB: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 All things came to be through him, and without him nothing made had being. This is not speaking of God the Father. So who than is the Word that John is speaking of? Maybe someone can answer that?