The Trinity?

[Gibs]

PK,

The Truth of the matter is solid in His Word and He will have the say of which partook and understood aright!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

My final word on the trinity

As my posts get deleted it's pointless to post here anymore. Here's my final word on the trinity. As the evidence is all on my side, no-one will be able to refute it. It's only a question of who chose to go with the evidence, that's all.

As for your posts getting deleted...I do think the moderator has in all fairness stated why he deleted those posts - and it wasn't because of your case against the Trinity doctrine. It was the attitude with which you presented your case, and how you responded to those dissenting, that caused your posts to be deleted. The snark within those posts went far beyond the levels of disagreement tones normally encountered here, as you made them quite personal. That was entirely under your control.

The evidence is not "all on your side"; people just do not enjoy being belittled for holding an opposing viewpoint. To many here, your points were well-refuted, but such a call is quite subjective, depending on one's perspective of the issue...something your posts demonstrated you apparently are unable to grasp.

Later,

[o2bwise]

I can certainly understand the sentiment to shelve this discussion, however, I could see merit in discussing one's understanding of the Godhead from the perspective of what one believes it says about God's character of love.

I shared a bit on that. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Blessings,

Tony

[Gustave]

A discussion of the Trinity within Seventh Day Adventism...

...Is as impossible as nailing Jello onto a wall.

...Because neither the group within SDA that rejects the Trinity.

...Or the group within SDA that claim to accept the doctrine.

...Believe in it.

Watching these discussions is simply a display of watching two non-Trinitarian groups....

...Debate against each other.

...This is odd given that neither side believes in the Trinity.

[Gibs]

The fact of this is Jesus made it clear but men make it muddy, by twisting it a lot.

It is laid out plain and clear,

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Just as John 10:28-30 states but no, people say that isn't what He said.

Well men's trouble is it takes no theologian of men to Decipher what He states in clear plain and simple fifth grade terms!

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Dr. Waite]

The fact of this is Jesus made it clear but men make it muddy, by twisting it a lot.

It is laid out plain and clear,

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Just as John 10:28-30 states but no, people say that isn't what He said.

Well men's trouble is it takes no theologian of men to Decipher what He states in clear plain and simple fifth grade terms!

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

I agree that Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, made it quite clear who "God" is. He never worshiped and never taught that we are to worship a "god" who is a unity of three co-eternal persons or a "god" who is a trinity of one being consisting of three persons. Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, worshiped "the only true God" who is one being and one person, his Father. See John 17:3 Jesus Christ is divine because He was begotten of the Father. The "holy spirit" is part of the Father's nature - the Father is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal, infinite in wisdom, holiness, justice, goodness, truth, and mercy, and unchangeable.

Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, never taught us to worship his Father's nature as a person separate from the person of the Father. He taught us to worship his Father who is by nature a spiritual being who is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal, infinite in wisdom, holiness, justice, goodness, truth, and mercy, and unchangeable.

[Gustave]

Dr. Waite,

[Dr. Waite]

Dr. Waite,

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[Gustave]

Dr. Waite, the Jews who charged Jesus with blasphemy when He healed the paralyzed man...

...Were used to watching Priests "forgive sins" in the temple.

...Not that it was actually the Priest but God working through the Priest.

...This was "old hat" to any Jew of that period.

Mark 2

And again he entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house. And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them. And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four. And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God ONLY? And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion

Jesus was able to do this because He was "ETERNALLY GOD"....

...Jesus had not made the "corporate world sacrifice" yet.

...So what business did He have according to your understanding.

...To be able to forgive this man of all his sins prior to His death on the cross?

Was that man's sins forgiven or not?

Prior to, as SDA's gloat over, proving that He wouldn't sin Himself...

...And being eternally annihilated by "the real God" if He had sinned.

What was wrong with those Jews saying what they did Dr. Waite?

...Do you believe that what they said wasn't right on the money?

...Or do you believe that those Jews didn't identify exactly WHO Jesus really was?

[Gibs]

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Dr. Waite,

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[Gibs]

But Jesus has revealed the part of the mystery we are contending here, He has told us plainly who and what His Father is and plainly who and what He the Son is.

Not only that but why it is the only way that could be made that man could be saved and the cost was so great we can't fathom and the liability of where the man Jesus Christ had to overcome from with no more power that Adam had in the beginning.

Add to that yet, He took upon Himself our fallen nature to show us as one of us that we can too. Yes we can too, we must have that faith, that we can too, and we can, the way He made isn't hard at all.

Blessings to all who see and understand the wonderful Way He has made!

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:7 ¶ Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

[Dr. Waite]

Dr. Waite, the Jews who charged Jesus with blasphemy when He healed the paralyzed man...

...Were used to watching Priests "forgive sins" in the temple.

...Not that it was actually the Priest but God working through the Priest.

...This was "old hat" to any Jew of that period.

Mark 2

And again he entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house. And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them. And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four. And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God ONLY? And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion

Jesus was able to do this because He was "ETERNALLY GOD"....

...Jesus had not made the "corporate world sacrifice" yet.

...So what business did He have according to your understanding.

...To be able to forgive this man of all his sins prior to His death on the cross?

Was that man's sins forgiven or not?

Prior to, as SDA's gloat over, proving that He wouldn't sin Himself...

...And being eternally annihilated by "the real God" if He had sinned.

What was wrong with those Jews saying what they did Dr. Waite?

...Do you believe that what they said wasn't right on the money?

...Or do you believe that those Jews didn't identify exactly WHO Jesus really was?

You say Jesus did these things because he was "ETERNALLY GOD".

But, Jesus said that he could do nothing of himself:

"Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." John 8:28

[Guest]

And...

Joh_5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing:

Joh_5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself..

[o2bwise]

Hi Gustave,

Do you think it would be fair and relevant to include this about the theological beliefs of certain of the scribes?

John 5:18

Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Note the language of John - making Himself equal with God. Now, if the scribes understood Jesus to be the eternal God, is it not nonsensical for John to refer to Jesus and "God" as someone else? (And this with respect to his referral of the theological understanding of the scribes.)

Did you ever see Roger's and Hammerstein's Cinderella? At one point, folks are bowing to the Prince. The King is smiling. He's OK.

I suggest in the effort to harmonize the above with your excerpt, Jesus has authority to forgive sins in the sense that, as the only begotten Son of God, He has authority to speak on behalf of His Father.

Blessings,

Tony

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Dr. Waite, the Jews who charged Jesus with blasphemy when He healed the paralyzed man...

...Were used to watching Priests "forgive sins" in the temple.

...Not that it was actually the Priest but God working through the Priest.

...This was "old hat" to any Jew of that period.

Mark 2

And again he entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house. And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them. And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four. And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God ONLY? And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion

Jesus was able to do this because He was "ETERNALLY GOD"....

...Jesus had not made the "corporate world sacrifice" yet.

...So what business did He have according to your understanding.

...To be able to forgive this man of all his sins prior to His death on the cross?

Was that man's sins forgiven or not?

Prior to, as SDA's gloat over, proving that He wouldn't sin Himself...

...And being eternally annihilated by "the real God" if He had sinned.

What was wrong with those Jews saying what they did Dr. Waite?

...Do you believe that what they said wasn't right on the money?

...Or do you believe that those Jews didn't identify exactly WHO Jesus really was?

You say Jesus did these things because he was "ETERNALLY GOD".

But, Jesus said that he could do nothing of himself:

"Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." John 8:28

The Father isn't God w/out The Son or The Holy Spirit...

...Or ANY combination thereof you could think of.

...So of course Jesus would say that.

[Gustave]

Hi Gustave,

Do you think it would be fair and relevant to include this about the theological beliefs of certain of the scribes?

John 5:18

Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Note the language of John - making Himself equal with God. Now, if the scribes understood Jesus to be the eternal God, is it not nonsensical for John to refer to Jesus and "God" as someone else? (And this with respect to his referral of the theological understanding of the scribes.)

[Gibs]

Man o man, now I think I've heard it all! "God" is a Trinity", God is "ONE BEING".

What kind of double speak is that? Wow! When the scripture is clear and easy understood!

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And the next two verses even tell you more, who is your Saviour!

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Yes our Father was in Christ,

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

And then,

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Yahweh King of Israel is but ONE, 1, ENTITY, not two or three. Yahweh of Hosts, Christ before Bethlehem was extended of the Father Himself. Proverbs 8:22 and Jesus tells you the same as that is who is in Him, the Father extended to be our Redeemer,

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

He Jesus was not another God, but the one and only God there is manifest in the flesh!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[o2bwise]

Hi Gustave,

Quote:

Gustave:

"God" is a Trinity, God is "ONE BEING".

Just curious especially given your use of emphasis what you mean by your use of the term "ONE BEING."

Just to let you know, my meaning of the term is "one independence of consciousness" in which case if we assume Father and Son each have His own independence of consciousness, to say God is multi-person and one being is a contradiction.

I speculate that you really cannot define the term (and that is interesting, given the significance you assign to it).

I have a family, but I never considered, for example, my daughters and I to be "ONE BEING."

I actually think it is a meaningless term from a trinitarian perspective and thus is consigned to be "part of its mystery."

Blessings,

Tony

[Gustave]

Hi Gustave,

Quote:

Gustave:

"God" is a Trinity, God is "ONE BEING".

Just curious especially given your use of emphasis what you mean by your use of the term "ONE BEING."

Just to let you know, my meaning of the term is "one independence of consciousness" in which case if we assume Father and Son each have His own independence of consciousness, to say God is multi-person and one being is a contradiction.

I speculate that you really cannot define the term (and that is interesting, given the significance you assign to it).

I have a family, but I never considered, for example, my daughters and I to be "ONE BEING."

I actually think it is a meaningless term from a trinitarian perspective and thus is consigned to be "part of its mystery."

Blessings,

Tony

God is ONE Being "entity" in Three Persons...

...In other words whatever it is that makes the Father God.

...Is the same SINGLE Substance that makes The Son & Holy Spirit God.

It's not one substance divided three ways...

...The Eternal Father could not be the eternal Father without the Eternal Son.

...In the Unity of the Holy Spirit.

No one can define the Substance which is God....

...This according to Scripture is a great mystery which man can't fathom.

...What you are describing is tri-theism.

Ellen White claimed that "IF" Christ would have sinned He would have passed into non-existence, eternally...

...Leaving ONLY the Father.

...This is absolutely heretical and a teaching of anti-Christ.

[Guest]

...The Eternal Father could not be the eternal Father without the Eternal Son.

Where is that in the Bible?

[Dr. Waite]

Quote:

God is ONE Being "entity" in Three Persons...

...In other words whatever it is that makes the Father God.

...Is the same SINGLE Substance that makes The Son & Holy Spirit God.

It's not one substance divided three ways...

...The Eternal Father could not be the eternal Father without the Eternal Son.

...In the Unity of the Holy Spirit.

No one can define the Substance which is God....

...This according to Scripture is a great mystery which man can't fathom.

...What you are describing is tri-theism.

Ellen White claimed that "IF" Christ would have sinned He would have passed into non-existence, eternally...

...Leaving ONLY the Father.

...This is absolutely heretical and a teaching of anti-Christ.

Jesus Christ has stated and the Bible states that he is the only begotten Son of the Father. That being true, in a literal sense, He would be of the same substance that the Father is.

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

BUT, where are the Bible verses which clearly state that the "holy spirit" as a distinct person from the Father and Son is of the same substance of the Father?

[Gibs]

Dr.Waite,

Yes it is certanly true that the Holy Spirit is not another person because Jesus told us,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

But now on your other point there was a time the Father possessed His Redeemer of Himself, Proverbs 8:22 and on.

Then this possesion is introduced to us by Isaiah,

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

We need to note "his" redeemer and his name was LORD or Yahweh of Hosts.

Isaiah 44:6 is a simultaneous proclamation and the "me" is both in it.

Possessed in Proverbs 8:22 is,

7069. qanah

qanah kaw-naw'

a primitive root; to erect, i.e. create; by extension, to procure, especially by purchase (causatively, sell); by implication to own:--attain, buy(-er), teach to keep cattle, get, provoke to jealousy, possess(-or), purchase, recover, redeem, X surely, X verily.

Yahweh The Father is Spirit and so for Him to extend Himself is no problem. He saw He would need a redeemer and so got set.

Yahweh of Hosts was heavens great commander and at Bethlehem heaven was emptied of Him and He came in God the Father's only Son at Bethlehem. "ONLY BEGOTTEN" means "sole" or "none other"!

So it is easy to see the Father's extension, Yahweh of Hosts then came in the body prepared Him and Deity was covered with Humanity.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Proof it was the Father in HIm,

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

And more,

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

He, Jesus was not another God in no sense, but THE GOD came in Him to reconcile the world unto Himself.

Now to cinch this up, when all things are put under His feet as He is sent to do, notice then that our Father becomes ALL IN ALL again!

The following verses are very profound to our understanding here!

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Yahweh of Hosts Jesus is to reign until His task is completed and then sin is never to rise up again, so now as a redeemer is not ever needed no more, the Father now is all in all again and Jesus Christ the Prince and now commander of all redeemed mankind will be our eternal King here on this earth. Then as stated in verse 28, He then is subject to the Father and no need of the Father in Him, so the Father becomes ALL IN ALL, yes, FINALLY!

This union made of fallen humanity of which Jesus took upon Him and the Father is a mystery our finite minds are not capable of comphrehending now. The union of the Father in Him was of Spirit. Jesus then will be higher than Adam now as He is the Prince of Heaven His Son of Whom He is highly adored of by our Father for His Great accomplishment of which Adam failed!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[o2bwise]

Hi Gustave,

Thank you.

Would I be correct in saying according to your view...

ONE BEING = one substance = one God

and so one being and one God happens to be equal to three separate, distinct conscious existences?

Now, when you say "one substance," do you mean it like if I said my daughter and I are of "one substance?" If you mean it differently than that, can you please qualify for me exactly what the difference is?

I admit to seeing no significance to the idea, to be candid. Nothing inside of me goes, "WOW! THAT'S IT!" like the idea is something really cool or rational or obviously full of love or anything.

The simple view that oneness is independence of consciousness and that God literally had a Son resonates with me pretty much completely from rational, biblical, and comprehending God's love perspectives.

Blessings,

Tony

[Gustave]

Hi Gustave,

Thank you.

Would I be correct in saying according to your view...

ONE BEING = one substance = one God