The Trinity?

[o2bwise]

Hi gibs,

Just curious. Do you believe Jesus had y chromosomes? This is rather an important point.

Take Care...

Tony

[o2bwise]

Hi Gustave,

(been exceedingly busy).

Real quick...

Quote:

Gustave:

This is why "Trinitarians" believe in the Eternal Generation of the Son through the Father....

...This requires that Christ pre & post Incarnate.

...Is "The Immutable God".

Can you explain "eternal generation" and cite biblical texts that support such a purported phenomenon?

Blessings,

Tony

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Hi gibs,

Just curious. Do you believe Jesus had y chromosomes? This is rather an important point.

Take Care...

Tony

FASCINATING question!!!!

[Gibs]

Since the Father determines the blood of His Son in this case of Jesus, The blood of God was shed.

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

When Ron Wyatt had a bit of the blood analyzed that fell on the mercy seat, He got a bit off the ceiling of the rock just above it and it was not the blood of a common man.

He was crucified just above where the Ark of the Covenant was hidden and when He died the rock was rent and His Blood by the providence of God came down througth the rent and some got to the Mercy Seat.

Ron barely got out with his life and went out and dug above,sure enough where the hole was dug for the cross partly in the rock it was rent.

We were all bought and paid for at that moment, all could be saved but will not.

That Ark is not to be removed until the Lord comes and receives His own.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

BUT, I would love to hash out this topic from the above perspective. How do our beliefs shed light on God's love?

Considering the amount of pages already posted it would seem doubtful it will be "hashed out" to any great satisfaction before Jesus' return. God speed, but I'm not resting my eternal life on a speedy revelation, especially since we've had the Bible for approximately 4,000 years and look where most of the religious community is today.

"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."Matthew 28:19 NASB

" Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,"Colossians 1:15 NLT

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."Colossians 1:15-17 KJV

God cares!

[Lauralea]

As someone who is half Jewish and has been somewhat active in Jewish ministry, the Let Us make man in Our image at Creation suggests the Trinity, as well as the even stronger message at His baptism where the Spirit descended on Jesus like a dove while the voice of God was heard from Heaven- 3 individuals.

Hear oh Israel the Lord our God is One (also known as the Schma (sp?) is a compound unity.

John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus said I and my Father are one, but this did not mean they were not two Beings.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Some Bible scholars believe Coptic Christians removed this from their Bible to combat a religious error of their time. It is nevertheless consistent with the other passages cited above.

[Gibs]

Ifin there was 3 individuals we would have 3 Gods and thar is but ONE!

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Dr. Waite]

As someone who is half Jewish and has been somewhat active in Jewish ministry, the Let Us make man in Our image at Creation suggests the Trinity, as well as the even stronger message at His baptism where the Spirit descended on Jesus like a dove while the voice of God was heard from Heaven- 3 individuals.

Hear oh Israel the Lord our God is One (also known as the Schma (sp?) is a compound unity.

John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus said I and my Father are one, but this did not mean they were not two Beings.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Some Bible scholars believe Coptic Christians removed this from their Bible to combat a religious error of their time. It is nevertheless consistent with the other passages cited above.

"After the earth was created, and the beasts upon it, the Father and Son carried out their purpose, which was designed before the fall of Satan, to make man in their own image. They had wrought together in the creation of the earth and every living thing upon it. And now God said to His Son, "Let us make man in our image." As Adam came forth from the hand of his Creator he was of noble height and of beautiful symmetry. He was more than twice as tall as men now living upon the earth, and was well proportioned. His features were perfect and beautiful. . . . Eve was not quite as tall as Adam. Her head reached a little above his shoulders. She, too, was noble, perfect in symmetry, and very beautiful. {LHU 47.3}"

EGW does not mention that the Father said to "GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT" "Let us make man in our image". If you believe that you are made in the image of "GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT", what is that image??

You state "Hear oh Israel the Lord our God is One (also known as the Schma (sp?) is a compound unity." HOWEVER, it should be noted that the Jews have been quoting this text for a very long time. They are monotheistic and they say it means “one”. On the Jewish website “Judaism 101” for example, you can see that echad is clearly stated as “one”. No one knows the Hebrew language better than the Jews so if they cannot see a plural God in Deuteronomy 6:4, then one has to question the accuracy of any interpretation that purports to do so. Echad was used 951 times in the Old Testament (according to Strong’s Concordance) and was translated “one” on 687 of those times. This is the power of context.

You state: "John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Then, you claim that these verses are consistent with 1 John 5:7.

JOHN 1:1-3 AND JOHN 1:14 ONLY MENTION TWO PERSONS. HOW CAN THESE VERSES BE CONSISTENT WITH 1 JOHN 5:7 WHERE THREE ARE MENTIONED??

[Guest]

8thdaypriest had this to say:

When I learned that the last verses from Matthew were missing from every Greek manuscript before the Eastern Byzantine (endorsed by Constantine) I began to take another look at the doctrine of Trinity. That last passage is the one where Christ told the disciples to baptize in the name of .... In the one Aramaic manuscript that survived, Christ says, "Baptizing them in my name," which we see the disciples doing !! 1 John 5:7 was also added to the text as most scholars agree today.

And concerning Jesus' baptism, why could not God have sent His spirit in the form of a dove, and still speak from heaven?

[Gordon1]

1 John 5:7 was also added to the text as most scholars agree today.

Yes, the SDA Bible Commentary states the same - this text was added.

[Gibs]

Well the fact of the matter is, Jesus Christ was not actually on the scene until Bethlehem, He had to be conceived in Mary of the Father first of all. Yes the Holy Spirit is the Father,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

He the Father Possessed of Himself, HIS Redeemer in the very beginning,

Proverbs 8:22 and here is the Possessed one, - - Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

And made clear in verse 8

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Before the incarnation at Bethlehem into the body prepared Him, the Father's Redeemer, LORD of Hosts was in Heaven, but Jesus was not yet!

Now at Bethlehem, Heaven was emptied of LORD of Hosts. (LORD is Yahweh when in all caps.)

The incarnation, union of the Deity, Yahweh, LORD of Hosts and Jesus Christ became our Saviour.

In Him then dwelt the fulness of the Father, He was the body prepared, Fully God in a body, note!

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

What God was in Him? Hard question? No! There is only one, Yahweh! Us Hillbillies know there ain't no more!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Dr. Waite]

Gibs: you state: "Well the fact of the matter is, Jesus Christ was not actually on the scene until Bethlehem, He had to be conceived in Mary of the Father first of all."

Quote:

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. Hebrews 1:1-4

It is obvious that the Son of God was "made so much better than the angels" prior to the time the worlds were made.

[o2bwise]

Hi gibs,

I found your answer to my question about whether or not Jesus had y chromosomes to be far from substantive.

You refer to some guy who allegedly captured some of Jesus actual blood and tie that in to Scripture referring to a redemptive aspect to His blood.

Are you saying that IF Jesus' blood had y chromosomes, there could be no redemptive nature to His blood? Furthermore, are you sure that it is Jesus' PHYSICAL BLOOD that is redemptive rather than the blood of Jesus serving as a metaphor for something else?

Doesn't Jesus in John 6 REFUTE the notion that it is His physical blood that redeems when He calls us to drink His blood?

I think what we are called to drink is "the real thing" and it is not physical at all.

Romans 1:3 says Christ was made of the spermatos of David, according to the flesh. Hebrews 2 indicates the same.

That would include a y chromosome.

Blessings,

Tony

[Gibs]

Jesus's egg in Mary was fertilized by Our Heavenly Father, the Holy Ghost or Spirit.

The blood of the offspring is determend by the Father. So He had more than the blood of man in His veins.

Take it or leave it on Ron Wyatt's discoveries, I know them well and that He was led of God or He would not have found the wonderful evidence he found.

He found much, much more and what he found the world over there about took his life as they didn't want these things of truth discovered, but God led him and the scriptures discerned properly that others had not!

Yes Jesus was a man but cannot be reckoned as tottally human as we are. He was the Son of God and the son of man.

Yes Ron Wyatt found a sample of His Blood and dna tests proved it to be of God.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[o2bwise]

Hi Lauralee,

Quote:

Lauralee:

As someone who is half Jewish and has been somewhat active in Jewish ministry, the Let Us make man in Our image at Creation suggests the Trinity

We are given repeated biblical declarations that Jesus is the Son of God.

Given that, how is it that your inclination regarding "Let us" is a 100% dismissal that God could have been referring to Himself and His Son?

Let me put it this way. Suppose everyone knows I have a child and suppose it becomes aware to one such person that I once said:

"Let us go for a drive to the White Mountains."

But, no one has any further account of the context. No one knows with any certainty who the US is in my statement.

Let's further suppose someone said:

Since Tony said "Let us" and even though we know he has a daughter, we can be quite certain Tony is composed of a Trinity.

My point here is not so much to ask about the Trinity as it is to ask how your interpretation 100% dismisses what would seem to be an extremely plausible alternative interpretation.

How is such an interpretation dismissed by you?

Blessings,

Tony

[o2bwise]

Hi gibs,

Quote:

gibs:

Jesus's egg in Mary was fertilized by Our Heavenly Father, the Holy Ghost or Spirit.

Yes, but since OTHER biblical accounts state CLEARLY that Jesus was made of the spermatos of man, are we not given insight as to some of what the miracle of the conception involves?

Which would appear then to be that God fertilized an egg of Mary with a spermatos of man.

Quote:

gibs:

The blood of the offspring is determend by the Father. So He had more than the blood of man in His veins.

Citation, please.

Quote:

Take it or leave it on Ron Wyatt's discoveries, I know them well and that He was led of God or He would not have found the wonderful evidence he found.

I find this interesting. You say "Take it or leave it" all the while you left:

1. The clear declaration of Scripture - Romans 1:3 and Hebrews 2. (I assume this since your prerogative was to be completely silent with respect to the verses all the while they were brought up by the very post you are responding to AND all the while the verses refer to the spermatos of MAN and therefore are logically totally relevant to the discussion.)

2. You also LEFT my mention of John 6 and what the blood is that redeems. If John 6 is correct, it is not His physical blood that redeems and His physical blood is a metaphor for something else about Jesus that was "shed" and that does redeem. (Or do you think Jesus our High Priest sprinkles some sanctuary with His physical blood?)

It is so ironic to me. You refer to "take it or leave it" and in precisely the same post, you LEAVE.

And that smacks of the pot calling the kettle black.

Why is that?

Blessings,

Tony

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

maybe the "Us" and "We" in scripture was referring to the "royal Us/We," as that was common usage during the times of King James as well as times of both earlier and later scriptural translations..

[o2bwise]

Hi Pam,

maybe the "Us" and "We" in scripture was referring to the "royal Us/We," as that was common usage during the times of King James as well as times of both earlier and later scriptural translations..

As someone who confesses to the highest level of my ability to comprehend that "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God!"

John 5:18

Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

1 Corinthians 8:6-7a

6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. 7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge;

Yeah...sounds good to me!

Blessings,

Tony

[Gibs]

What most will not come to understand is the union of Deity and the man, body prepared, Jesus Christ could not and did not happen in Heaven, it happened in Mary's womb.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

The one and only God came in Him and so He was God with us, Emmanuel!

That union EGW tells us that is of now with our little finite minds beyond us.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Guest]

Jesus Christ could not and did not happen in Heaven, it happened in Mary's womb.

Gibs, how did He create the worlds, if He did not exist yet?

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

[Gibs]

Well, RLH, it was not literally Christ who did as He wasn't conceived yet.

But Yahweh of Hosts was and was to be creator of Hosts as well so He is LORD, Yahweh of Hosts.

It was always LORD of Hosts in the old testament. In 235 verses!

This is who came and was incarnated in the body prepared Him to come in, Jesus Christ His Son, only born at Bethlehem. The ONLY BEGOTEN SON!

LORD, Yahweh of Hosts is the entity the Father Possessed of Himself in the beginning to do all this of Hosts, creation and to bring all under His feet.

When it is done Christ returns the Deity back to His Father and He is ALL IN ALL again.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

That cinches it that the Father gave of Himself to be in Christ to accomplish this very job. Yes now finally the Father is now ALL IN ALL!

Very profound read and understanding 1 Cor. 15:24-28!

Yes Jesus Christ the man born of Mary was declared from almost the beginning but was not until it was time. God knew us all in the beginning and has declared us in the Book of Life.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Guest]

I think you got it wrong, Gibs.

Here Christ shows them that, although they might reckon His life to be less than fifty years, yet His divine life could not be reckoned by human computation. The existence of Christ before His incarnation is not measured by figures.--The Signs of the Times, May 3, 1899. {7ABC 440.5}

I saw the lovely Jesus, and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon his countenance. Soon I saw him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with his Father. {1SG 22}

[Lauralea]

Samuel Jacobsen, SDA author of Quest of a Jew, ad other Jewish SDAs of my acquaintance who know Hebrew, have maintained the Schma refers to a compound unity.

John 1 refers to Christ as the preexistant Word and as the Messiah, and to Him and the Father as 2 persons, i.e. there is more than 1 Person in the Godhead.

A quick search of the White Estate came up with 9412 references with Holy Spirit and God in the same passage. Here is one

God grant that His converting power may be felt throughout this large assembly. Oh, that the power of God may rest upon the people. What we need is daily piety. We need to search the Scriptures daily, to pray earnestly that by the power of the Holy Spirit God may fit every one of us up to work in our place in His vineyard. No one is prepared to educate and strengthen the church unless he has received the gift of the Holy Spirit. No minister is prepared to labor intelligently for the salvation of souls, unless he is endowed by the Holy Spirit, unless he is feeding on Christ, and has an intense hatred of sin....

I have no specific time of which to speak when the outpouring of the Holy Spirit will take place—when the mighty angel will come down from heaven, and unite with the third angel in closing up the work for this world; my message is that our only safety is in being ready for the heavenly refreshing, having our lamps trimmed and burning. Christ has told us to watch; “for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Matthew 24:44). “Watch and pray” is the charge that is given us by our Redeemer. Day by day we are to seek the enlightenment of the Spirit of God, that it may do its office work upon the soul and character. Oh, how much time has been wasted through giving attention to trifling things. Repent and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

I will not be posting on this thread further due to time constraints and because I am moving. Lauralea

[joeb]

I've posted this before but here it goes again:

Quote:

Proverbs 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

The word translated as "everlasting" according to Strong's means the following:

Quote:

5769 `owlam o-lawm' or lolam {o-lawm'}; from 5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:--alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare 5331, 5703. see HEBREW for 05956 see HEBREW for 05331 see HEBREW for 05703

The vanishing point of time, or time out of mind. In other words, the Son of God was there when time vanishes into the eternal distance before the earth was made.

And then there's verse 30.

Quote:

Proverbs 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

I was by him as one brought up with him. In other words, there never was a time when Christ was not with the Father. It's like they were "brought up together".

[Dr. Waite]

Samuel Jacobsen, SDA author of Quest of a Jew, ad other Jewish SDAs of my acquaintance who know Hebrew, have maintained the Schma refers to a compound unity.

John 1 refers to Christ as the preexistant Word and as the Messiah, and to Him and the Father as 2 persons, i.e. there is more than 1 Person in the Godhead.

A quick search of the White Estate came up with 9412 references with Holy Spirit and God in the same passage. Here is one

God grant that His converting power may be felt throughout this large assembly. Oh, that the power of God may rest upon the people. What we need is daily piety. We need to search the Scriptures daily, to pray earnestly that by the power of the Holy Spirit God may fit every one of us up to work in our place in His vineyard. No one is prepared to educate and strengthen the church unless he has received the gift of the Holy Spirit. No minister is prepared to labor intelligently for the salvation of souls, unless he is endowed by the Holy Spirit, unless he is feeding on Christ, and has an intense hatred of sin....

I have no specific time of which to speak when the outpouring of the Holy Spirit will take place—when the mighty angel will come down from heaven, and unite with the third angel in closing up the work for this world; my message is that our only safety is in being ready for the heavenly refreshing, having our lamps trimmed and burning. Christ has told us to watch; “for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Matthew 24:44). “Watch and pray” is the charge that is given us by our Redeemer. Day by day we are to seek the enlightenment of the Spirit of God, that it may do its office work upon the soul and character. Oh, how much time has been wasted through giving attention to trifling things. Repent and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

I will not be posting on this thread further due to time constraints and because I am moving. Lauralea