The Trinity?

[epaminondas]

If there is 3 persons in the Godhead there is definitly 3 Gods and that don't hold with scripture and I don't care who said it!

[epaminondas]

The Eternal Dignitaries of the Trinity.--The eternal heavenly dignitaries--God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit--arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.--Manuscript 145, 1901. {Ev 616.4}

Personality of the Holy Spirit.--We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616

White, E. G. (1946). Evangelism (616). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption.

Counsels on Health. 1923 (222). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."--Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}

The Power of God in the Third Person.--The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897) {Ev 617.2}

White, E. G. (1946). Evangelism (617). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}

White, E. G. (1946). Evangelism (615). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

So now you've given up on the Bible and call on Ellen White to help you with the trinity. You're right; the case against the trinity in the Bible is overwhelmingly stronger than the few obscure passages that can be twisted to look like support for the trinity.

[Gerr]

So now you've given up on the Bible and call on Ellen White to help you with the trinity. You're right; the case against the trinity in the Bible is overwhelmingly stronger than the few obscure passages that can be twisted to look like support for the trinity.

If you had paid attention, you would have noticed that my post was in response to RLH. Here it is again - his question and my answer.

Originally Posted By: RLH

Originally Posted By: pkrause

Interesting thoughts, but I agree with Gerry, because he's in agreement with sister white.

So where does sister White say that the HS is truly God? Jesus said that there is only one true God. John 17:3

My response:

The Eternal Dignitaries of the Trinity.--The eternal heavenly dignitaries--God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit--arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.--Manuscript 145, 1901. {Ev 616.4}

Personality of the Holy Spirit.--We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616

White, E. G. (1946). Evangelism (616). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption.

Counsels on Health. 1923 (222). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."--Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}

The Power of God in the Third Person.--The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897) {Ev 617.2}

White, E. G. (1946). Evangelism (617). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}

White, E. G. (1946). Evangelism (615). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

[Gerr]

John 1:1

John used the word theos 252 times, only 22/252 without the "the." In every case he used the "the" it is clear he was talking about God. In a few cases where he didn't use the "the" it is also clear he is talking about God. As far as I know, John 1:1 is the only place he used both ways (with and without the "the") in one sentence. So, it's highly unlikely he was talking about the same entity in both uses of theos in John 1:1, but not 100% certain. The Bible was not written with mathematical accuracy.

Repeating an error a 1000x will not make it true. The theos in Jn 1:1 is a noun. And here is Heb 1:8-9 AGAIN, where the definite article is present in the Greek. Check it out.

ESV | ýHeb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. ý9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

[Gerr]

If there is 3 persons in the Godhead there is definitly 3 Gods and that don't hold with scripture and I don't care who said it!

Whoa there!

So now are you trying to discount what God Himself said & what He said through His messengers? Jesus Himself said that He will send ANOTHER Comforter to take His place. Jesus is a person, and the Comforter/HS He was sending IS A PERSON! Of THE SON, the FATHER Himself said,

ESV | ýHeb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. ý9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

Your theory that God the Father appears as the same person in Jesus and the HS me more problems with Scripture and causes me mental indigestion.

Quote:

One thing I know, God or Jesus never said it! Both tell us there is ONE God and Father of all. He was the Father of Jesus the man born of Mary and came and dwelt in Him in all fullness.

Ah that's what happens when the mind is closed and clings to some pet theory! Even when God sends a prophet to confirm the word, it would rather cling to error than admit one is wrong! But that's understandable, Gibs. When the Baptist father of a friend of mine learned about the Sabbath and the state of the dead and that sinners do not burn forever and ever and ever, it took him years to process and accept it.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Repeating an error a 1000x will not make it true. The theos in Jn 1:1 is a noun.

Yes, theos is a noun. I said as much in this post: #631820 - Tue May 14 2013 04:41 AM. But that has nothing to do with the post you responded to. My point is that John 1:1, as it is usually translated, only makes sense if "The Word" and "God" mentioned in it are one and the same entity, as Gibs contends. It has nothing to do with theos being a noun, or not. In fact, my point won't work if theos is not a noun.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Ah that's what happens when the mind is closed and clings to some pet theory!

Yes, exactly. Being the way I am, combined with the fact that we cannot really get into other people's minds, always made it difficult for me to see why people can't see things I regard as obvious. I often regarded these people as obstinate and with bad intentions, knowing what I do and seeing things as I do because they have applied the same logic that I did, but they just refuse to admit facts out of contrariness, like a willful woman. I know Hanlon's prinicple says this type of thing is more often the result of ignorance than bad intentions, but still I have difficulty with it.

Now, at last, I know why some people support the trinity or believe like Gibs does: they can entertain two conflicting sets of knowledge and believe them both to be true. I never thought this was possible.

Trinitarians know Jesus said that the Father is the only true God and that Paul said that for us there is only one God, the Father. Gibs knows that Jesus prayed to the Father and spoke of the Father as if He (the Father) was someone else. But it doesn't matter for them. They all find obscure passages in the Bible, and there are many as testified to by the many beliefs, and twist them to say something the exact opposite to those clear passages mentioned. Then they believe them all. Amazing, isn't it? Then they come up with weird belief systems which can accomodate these conflicting pieces of evidence, like 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 and 1/3 = 1. And the fact that these belief systems defy all logic and has nothing going for them don't bother them at all. This is really weird.

Obviously, if people are happy to believe that conflicting ideas are all true, logic has no hold over them. In that case I am powerless to change their minds. Even Jesus, whith all his knowledge and power, couldn't get the majority to believe in his message. Who am I to think I can do any better?

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Gibs

If there is 3 persons in the Godhead there is definitly 3 Gods and that don't hold with scripture and I don't care who said it!

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo in response to the above quote from a post by Gibs.

Whoa there!

So now are you trying to discount what God Himself said & what He said through His messengers? Jesus Himself said that He will send ANOTHER Comforter to take His place. Jesus is a person, and the Comforter/HS He was sending IS A PERSON! Of THE SON, the FATHER Himself said,

ESV | ýHeb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. ý9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

Gerry, your response to Gibs doesn't address his point that if every member of the trinity is god, there are three gods. Gibs is right, here. 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. There is no getting away from that. Stick to the point. This is what you must disprove, that 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. Don't try to obfuscate by bringing in irrelevancies. Remember, the point it that 1 + 1 + 1 = 3.

[Gerr]

Gerry, your response to Gibs doesn't address his point that if every member of the trinity is god, there are three gods. Gibs is right, here. 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. There is no getting away from that. Stick to the point. This is what you must disprove, that 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. Don't try to obfuscate by bringing in irrelevancies. Remember, the point it that 1 + 1 + 1 = 3.

NOT AGAIN!!! A husband & wife are TWO people, yet they are to be ONE. The Church is comprised of MANY people, yet they are to be ONE. In the Godhead are THREE persons, yet they are ONE!!!

Here are some texts to consider what it means to be one.

ESV | ýEzr 3:1 When the seventh month came, and the children of Israel were in the towns, the people gathered as one man to Jerusalem.

ESV 1 Sa 11:7 Then the dread of the LORD fell upon the people, and they came out as one man.

ESV | ýNe 8:1 And all the people gathered as one man into the square before the Water Gate.

ESV | ý2 Ch 18:12 And the messenger who went to summon Micaiah said to him, “Behold, the words of the prophets with one accord

ESV | ýAc 1:14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer,

KJV 1900 | ‎1 Ch 12:38 All these men of war, that could keep rank, came with a perfect heart to Hebron, to make David king over all Israel: and all the rest also of Israel were of one heart to make David king.

ESV | ‎Ac 4:32 Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul

NASB95 | ‎Ac 2:46 Day by day continuing with [size:14pt]one mind in the temple,

ESV | ‎1 Pe 3:8 Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.

KJV 1900 | ‎1 Pe 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

[Gerr]

Quote:

Repeating an error a 1000x will not make it true. The theos in Jn 1:1 is a noun.

Yes, theos is a noun. I said as much in this post: #631820 - Tue May 14 2013 04:41 AM. But that has nothing to do with the post you responded to. My point is that John 1:1, as it is usually translated, only makes sense if "The Word" and "God" mentioned in it are one and the same entity, as Gibs contends. It has nothing to do with theos being a noun, or not. In fact, my point won't work if theos is not a noun.

You have been quibbling about the absence of a definite article in Jn 1:1, yet fail to address Heb 1:8,8 where the definite article does occur in the Greek.

NASB95 | ýHeb 1:8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. ý9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

And Isa 9:6 ESV | ýIs 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

[Gibs]

Yes Gerry, the MIGHTY GOD as it was the Father with us in Christ Jesus!

Philip you've seen me you've seen the Father!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Gibs, in Jesus the man Christ's divinity was held back at all times. As a man He supplicated the throne of God till His humanity was charged with a heavenly current that should connect His humanity with divinity, that is, with the Father and that is why as a man He could say, If you have seen me you have seen the Father.

"The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father." 1 S.M.247.

sky

[Gail]

Gibs, in Jesus the man Christ's divinity was held back at all times. As a man He supplicated the throne of God till His humanity was charged with a heavenly current that should connect His humanity with divinity, that is, with the Father and that is why as a man He could say, If you have seen me you have seen the Father.

"The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father." 1 S.M.247.

sky

That is why as a man he fully identified with us as humans. Otherwise He would have had an unfair advantage over us.

He came as our example, that we can follow Him in this.

[Gordon1]

...in Jesus the man Christ's divinity was held back at all times.

What of "..Divinity flashed through humanity.."?

[skyblue888]

It had to me the divinity of the Father that flashed

for His own was kept back at all times. The divinity

of the Father was one with the humanity of Jesus and

therefore it was His by faith and this is the divinity

that flashed through His humanity.

sky

[Gibs]

The one and only way that Yahweh of Hosts existed from all eternity is because He is the extension of the Father Himself for a Redeemer.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

And here is the time The Father extended Him from Himself,

Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Pr 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

It is very plain to see The Father is the first and His Redeemer then to be the pre existant one also must be and is the same and one substance.

Or else Jesus could not state this and be true,

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

And He goes ahead and flat out tells us,

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one. Yes and the text before proves it to the numeral 1!

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

So we see then that Christ in us is the Father in us, for as we are told, The Father dwelt in Him in all fullness.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

You can repeat an error a million X; it would still be false.

[Gibs]

Well Gerry you and I know that a man and woman are one in a vague sense but are not one and the same substance.

Jesus was the Father with us as the Father gave of Himself, His substance for to make for us a Redeemer. And yes He came in Jesus Christ born of Mary, Deity covered with humanity.

What do you find impossible to God? Not this I assure you.

And we know there is coming a time that Our Father will be ALL IN ALL again too.

Right now and of as yet The Father is vested in Jesus Christ who now sits on the Father's right hand!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest]

How can that be, Gibs, if Jesus IS the Father? Is He sitting beside himself?

[Gibs]

Well you see the Father gave of Himself to be in the one beside Him! That is impossible with you and I but not with the one and ONLY infinite one!

Jesus had to be of the Father's substance you see to rightly state "I am the first".

Jesus even said so but so many make of it something else.

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Verses 28,29 prove from the context that ONE is the numeral 1~

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Tom Wetmore]

Moderator Note:

Several posts that were rude and insulting of another have been removed. The software takes away replies to removed posts as well.

This topic already hangs by a thread. If the participants cannot be civil and respectful to each other it will be locked and any effort to restart this topic may be blocked. After nearly 2000 posts, nobody is persuaded to change their POV on the topic and opinions have only calcified. When that happens those stoney opinions just get hurled back and forth at each other. Nothing new has been said in the last 1000 posts. The only thing that changes is the tone.

[Stan]

My experience is this "The weaker the position the more irrupted people get." not always... but the majority of the time.

[Tom Wetmore]

True indeed!

[epaminondas]

My final word on the trinity

As my posts get deleted it's pointless to post here anymore. Here's my final word on the trinity. As the evidence is all on my side, no-one will be able to refute it. It's only a question of who chose to go with the evidence, that's all.

[phkrause]

No not really, I believe that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit will have the last say!!