The Trinity?

[epaminondas]

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If you are unable to qualify the essence of the Father, why does the idea that God could beget a Son be acceptable ONLY if you are able to qualify the Father's essence?

Hi Tony,

What I said was that if one doesn't even know exactly what this essence is, how can one say two entities have the same "essence?" God can also makes rocks and frogs and things clearly different from Himself, so most likely He can make things similar to Himself.

When Jesus was on Earth he was flesh and blood, like us. Was he then of the same "essence" as the Father? What does John317 say?

[epaminondas]

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this is also a very sore point with the Muslims, they can accept Jesus as wise, and loving, and a prophet, and a great teacher, but do not make him God.

The trinity is most likely responsible for the poor headway Christianity has made with Jews and Muslims. Now, if you were Satan and you didn't want Christianity to go to Jews and Muslims, wouldn't you make it a polytheistic (three is not one) religion?

[epaminondas]

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I have consulted several Greek authorities and all of them consider "theos" in "the Word was God" as a noun, nominative, singular. Sources: ESV interlinear, NASB interlinear, NRSV interlinear, KJV interlinear, DBL Greek, WSNTDICT,

Yes, you are right. And here is where it says so. But here is where it says what that theos can mean. And you will notice, not only God, like the Father, but god like any of the many gods which ever existed. Maybe something divine, as divine has such a broad meaning. Especially, of course, in the absence of the definite article used with the previous occurence of theos in that same verse.

[epaminondas]

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MY CONCLUSION:

The Son of God said that his Father is the only true God. Since the Father is the only true God, that excludes all other persons or beings from being (the only) true God.

Let's remove "the only" as indicated in parentheses from the above statement. Once that's done, read on. The utmost elegance is to be found in the utmost simplicity. The slightly modified statement above cannot be distilled to a purer or simpler form. It is incontrovertable. It cannot be broken. It deserves much more attention. It is worthy to be written on a plaque of gold.

I have seen no response by any trinitarian to it. If it stands, the trinity doesn't stand. How are you (trinitarians) going to get rid of it? You can only allow it to stand if the trinitarian position is happy to be at odds with logic and reason and fact.

[Gerr]

Quote:

MY CONCLUSION:

The Son of God said that his Father is the only true God. Since the Father is the only true God, that excludes all other persons or beings from being (the only) true God.

Let's remove "the only" as indicated in parentheses from the above statement. Once that's done, read on. The utmost elegance is to be found in the utmost simplicity. The slightly modified statement above cannot be distilled to a purer or simpler form. It is incontrovertable. It cannot be broken. It deserves much more attention. It is worthy to be written on a plaque of gold.

I have seen no response by any trinitarian to it. If it stands, the trinity doesn't stand. How are you (trinitarians) going to get rid of it? You can only allow it to stand if the trinitarian position is happy to be at odds with logic and reason and fact.

So, who is Jesus Christ, some kind of false god?

That text has been dealt with many times.

ESV | ý1 Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

ýýNASB95 | ý1 Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

ýýNIV84 | ý1 Jn 5:20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

ýýNRSV | ý1 Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

ýýKJV 1900 | ý1 Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

ESV | ýJn 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life

ESV | ý1 Jn 5:12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

ESV | ‎Jn 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life

Yeah, these should be in plaque of gold as well.

[o2bwise]

Hey e,

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What I said was that if one doesn't even know exactly what this essence is, how can one say two entities have the same "essence?" God can also makes rocks and frogs and things clearly different from Himself, so most likely He can make things similar to Himself.

Well, here is part of my understanding.

First off, if creation took place within the 6 day biblical record, not a creature who was born was created at that time. So it appears "creation" is not synonymous with when a being is formed from created stuff or when he is sentient and so forth.

I do believe the link between begotten and son is powerful. I see it that they are related. That the Father chose to do what we can best understand as "give birth" and so the Son proceeded forth from the Father and naturally inherited His Father's nature in the same basic way a creature born of a dog is a dog and a creature born of a woman is human and so on.

Then at the incarnation, which I do accept is a "mystery," He who was born of God and thereby inherited God's nature (which is uncreated) was born of a woman thereby acquiring a human nature.

Son of God---------------Incarnation Event---------------son of man

It is my understanding that at the incarnation, the Son of God was emptied of His divine attributes save one thing. He had a faith in His Father that somehow is organically connected to His preincarnate existence as "the only begotten Son of God."

Take Care,

Tony

When Jesus was on Earth he was flesh and blood, like us. Was he then of the same "essence" as the Father? What does John317 say?

[epaminondas]

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That text has been dealt with many times.

No, John 17:3 still says the Father is the only true God. It has not been falsified once. And due to its clarity it carries more weight than whatever you quote.

[epaminondas]

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I do believe the link between begotten and son is powerful.

We do not know what "begotten" really means in the sense of the Father "begetting" Jesus. In all other cases where beget is used, two genders are involved. We are totally unfamiliar with one entity and one entity only begetting another. Do you maybe mean parthenogenesis? One should never, ever use a word of which one does not know the exact meaning. There are people who will do that, but don't be one of them.

[Gibs]

epaminondas,

"Begotten though coupled with Only has definite meaning.

Then is means, "Sole" "No Other", means then He, Yahweh never "GOT" another, that one is the "One and Only".

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

Quote:

That text has been dealt with many times.

No, John 17:3 still says the Father is the only true God. It has not been falsified once. And due to its clarity it carries more weight than whatever you quote.

Since God the Father is the only true God, and since Christ is also a true God, and the Holy Spirit is also truly God, hence the conclusion by many that there is but one God in 3 persons.

[Guest]

Where does it say that the HS is truly God? I understand that it is God's spirit, so anything you do against God's spirit, is the same as doing it against God. But that doesn't make the HS a God in and of itself.

People may say "Gerry has a kind spirit." Does that mean your spirit is Gerry Cabalo, even without you? Of course not. That would be impossible.

[joeb]

Where does it say that the HS is truly God? I understand that it is God's spirit, so anything you do against God's spirit, is the same as doing it against God. But that doesn't make the HS a God in and of itself.

People may say "Gerry has a kind spirit." Does that mean your spirit is Gerry Cabalo, even without you? Of course not. That would be impossible.

Ellen White calls the Holy Spirit a person, not a manifestation of the Father's personality.

[phkrause]

Where does it say that the HS is truly God? I understand that it is God's spirit, so anything you do against God's spirit, is the same as doing it against God. But that doesn't make the HS a God in and of itself.

People may say "Gerry has a kind spirit." Does that mean your spirit is Gerry Cabalo, even without you? Of course not. That would be impossible.

Interesting thoughts, but I agree with Gerry, because he's in agreement with sister white.

[Guest]

Interesting thoughts, but I agree with Gerry, because he's in agreement with sister white.

So where does sister White say that the HS is truly God? Jesus said that there is only one true God. John 17:3

[Gibs]

I don't think EGW missed Jesus Words here for a moment.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[phkrause]

The Power of God in the Third Person—The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.—Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897)

In Co-operation With the Three Highest Powers—We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,—and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.—Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 51. (1905).

In those two statements she's calling the HS God! At least that's what I'm reading.

[Guest]

"The power of God" .... "Truly God" .....hmmm. I think you just proved my point. Calling it the power of God falls waaay short of saying it is "Truly God".

Jesus said there is only one true God. If He doesn't know, then who does? If the HS truely is God, then he should be worshipped and prayed to also. But the Bible never says to do that, nor does EGW.

[Guest]

You don't worship the power of God. Or the highest powers in heaven. You worship God.

[skyblue888]

If we are not worshiping the power of God we are not worshiping Christ for "Christ is both the wisdom and the power of God." 1 Cor.1:24.

And "The divine Spirit that the world's Redeemer promised to send is the presence and power of God." E.G. White, Signs of the Times, Nov.23,1891.

We can worship the Holy Spirit who is the Third Person of the Godhead.

"What gift could Christ bestow rich enough to signalize and grace His ascension to the mediatorial throne? It must be worthy of His greatness and His royalty. He determined to give His Representative, the third person of the Godhead. This gift could not be excelled. He would give all gifts in one, and therefore the divine Spirit, that converting, enlightening, and sanctifying power, would be His donation." E.G. White, 6 B.C.1052-1053.

sky

[epaminondas]

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Since God the Father is the only true God, and since Christ is also a true God, and the Holy Spirit is also truly God, hence the conclusion by many that there is but one God in 3 persons.

How do you reach your conclusion? If anything is the only of something there is no other of that same thing. This is unassailable logic. The only way your logic can work is if the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one known by three names, like Gibs says. They cannot be three separate entities and all be true God if the Father is the only true God, like Jesus said. Gibs will welcome you into his fold.

[epaminondas]

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Interesting thoughts, but I agree with Gerry, because he's in agreement with sister white.

So, do you regard everything Ellen White said as the gospel truth?

[epaminondas]

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Begotten though coupled with Only has definite meaning.

No, begotten still means "we don't know what." Only only makes it the only "we don't know what." We still don't know exactly what it means.

[epaminondas]

John 1:1

John used the word theos 252 times, only 22/252 without the "the." In every case he used the "the" it is clear he was talking about God. In a few cases where he didn't use the "the" it is also clear he is talking about God. As far as I know, John 1:1 is the only place he used both ways (with and without the "the") in one sentence. So, it's highly unlikely he was talking about the same entity in both uses of theos in John 1:1, but not 100% certain. The Bible was not written with mathematical accuracy.

However, if we take John 1:1 as it is usually translated and replace "the word" with the placeholder A and "God" with the placeholder B, then we get:

In the beginning was A and A was with B and A was B. There is absolutely no way that can make sense if A and B are two separate entities. There is no getting past that. The only way it can make sense is if A and B refer to the same entity - a la Gibs. You can shout till you're blue in the face and use big blue letters till the cows come home, everything said here is true.

So how come so many has accepted this so uncritically? It's because people see religion as something that doesn't have to make sense. Voodoo and many primitive religions are so much mumbo-jumbo. Even though Christians will protest that they don't see Christianity like that, there are elements of Christianity they do see like that, especially the trinity.

It's only if we let the light of logic shine in that we see that the king (the trinity) has no clothes. Get away from the Voodoo and mumbo-jumbo - abandon the trinity. Don't love nonsense so much. I know, nonsense has bequeathed many doctorates in the humanities and has been the cornerstone of many successful academic careers and books. But leave the blind to the blind. Come into the light. Clear passages say there is no trinity in the Bible. Take note of them and believe them. Don't discard them in favour of what is unclear and ambiguous.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

Interesting thoughts, but I agree with Gerry, because he's in agreement with sister white.

So where does sister White say that the HS is truly God? Jesus said that there is only one true God. John 17:3

The Eternal Dignitaries of the Trinity.--The eternal heavenly dignitaries--God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit--arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.--Manuscript 145, 1901. {Ev 616.4}

Personality of the Holy Spirit.--We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616

White, E. G. (1946). Evangelism (616). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption.

Counsels on Health. 1923 (222). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."--Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}

The Power of God in the Third Person.--The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897) {Ev 617.2}

White, E. G. (1946). Evangelism (617). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) {Ev 615.1}

White, E. G. (1946). Evangelism (615). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

[Gibs]

If there is 3 persons in the Godhead there is definitly 3 Gods and that don't hold with scripture and I don't care who said it!

One thing I know, God or Jesus never said it! Both tell us there is ONE God and Father of all. He was the Father of Jesus the man born of Mary and came and dwelt in Him in all fullness.

So Jesus was not another God and the Holy Spirit is neither another person or another God.

But is the very person of God The Father and The Father is Spirit.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I have to stand on the Word of God and no man!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.