The Trinity?

[Dr. Waite]

Quote:

How and when did Jesus become the Son of God?

1. At His conception & birth - ESV | ýLk 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. ý32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.

2. At His baptism - ESV | ýMt 3:17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

3. By horizo declaration/decree at His resurrection, NASB95 | ýRo 1:4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,

The Bible clearly says there is only one God, yet it speaks of 3 persons who are all called "God". It is not without reason that many have concluded that there is One God in three persons, hence the Trinity concept.

My bible says:

“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; being made so much better than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son?” Hebrews 1:1-5.

These verses plainly say that God made the worlds by his Son who is the express image of His person.

If God did not have a Son before he was born a human being, how could have God made the worlds by his Son?

[Gibs]

I just have to restate that His Son was also the son of man and could not have been the Creator. The verse is applied to Jesus with Yahweh of Hosts made in union with Him.

Then Paul states it correctly as it was of Yahweh of Hosts in Him. But Paul sets it straight,

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

And then so does Jesus,

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[o2bwise]

Quote:

Yes, at Bethlehem He was Begotten,

Of a woman.

Quote:

In other words, Jesus Christ was born again. He came from heaven, God’s first-born, to the earth, and was born again. But all in Christ’s work goes by opposites for us: He, the sinless one, was made to be sin in order that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. He, the living One, the Prince and Author of life, died that we might live. He whose goings forth have been from the days of eternity, the first-born of God, was born again in order that we might be born again. (Christian Perfection, paragraphs 53, 54 A Sermon By A. T. Jones, Review & Herald, July 7 - August 1, 1899) (This is also found in Lessons on Faith, page 154)

[Dr. Waite]

Quote:

Yes, at Bethlehem He was Begotten,

Of a woman.

Quote:

In other words, Jesus Christ was born again. He came from heaven, God’s first-born, to the earth, and was born again. But all in Christ’s work goes by opposites for us: He, the sinless one, was made to be sin in order that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. He, the living One, the Prince and Author of life, died that we might live. He whose goings forth have been from the days of eternity, the first-born of God, was born again in order that we might be born again. (Christian Perfection, paragraphs 53, 54 A Sermon By A. T. Jones, Review & Herald, July 7 - August 1, 1899) (This is also found in Lessons on Faith, page 154)

I AGREE

"The dedication of the first-born had its origin in the earliest times. God had promised to give the First-born of heaven to save the sinner. This gift was to be acknowledged in every household by the consecration of the first-born son. He was to be devoted to the priesthood, as a representative of Christ among men. {DA 51.1}

In the deliverance of Israel from Egypt, the dedication of the first-born was again commanded. While the children of Israel were in bondage to the Egyptians, the Lord directed Moses to go to Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and say, "Thus saith the Lord, Israel is My son, even My first-born: and I say unto thee, Let My son go, that he may serve Me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy first-born." Ex. 4:22, 23. {DA 51.2}"

[Gibs]

When was He, Jesus born in heaven, there is no born in Heaven, ever. And God states that before or after Him there was no God formed and of course none created or born!

Let us quit grasping at straws and stick with the facts, it was God Himself, Yahweh of Hosts that came in all fullness in Christ Jesus in the womb of Mary. Yahweh of Hosts the extension of Himself! Yes Yahweh the Father gave of Himself and His own dear "ONLY BEGOTTEN SON" born of woman.

That is why Philip should have seen the Father in Him!

"ONLY BEGOTTEN" Means, sole, none other, so He, Jesus was not a born twice person nor did He fall to sin and need to be reborn of the Spirit. He Jesus was only born of Mary once and for all time eternal.

Now if Jesus would have failed according to what is being said a Deity would have been lost. What Deity? There is but one!

No. The answer is, if Jesus would have failed, Father Yahweh and Yahweh of Hosts would not have been lost.

Jesus Christ if He had failed would have been lost and all of mankind.

Yahweh would then have been ALL IN ALL again without accomplishing the mission. He besides would have lost His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON and all of mankind.

But, mission faithfully accomplished by Jesus and a few of mankind will come to the way of salvation that was made, and for sure the saved are precious Jewels to Him.

He, Jesus the second Adam bought us, we are His subjects and He will be our Great King for all eternity!

Jesus will then in the earth made new be as the first Adam, king of the human race but not God as He returns that to His Father so that He is ALL IN ALL again. 1 Cor 15:28

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

My bible says:

“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; being made so much better than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son?” Hebrews 1:1-5.

These verses plainly say that God made the worlds by his Son who is the express image of His person.

If God did not have a Son before he was born a human being, how could have God made the worlds by his Son?

A very good question. My Bible says the same thing, so we must be reading the same Book! So let's look at those verses again and the whole 1st chapter of Hebrews. But before we do so, let's review what we have covered so far.

1. There is only ONE God.

2. The Bible also calls Jesus Christ God per Jn 1:1,18; Isa 9:6; 1 Jn 5:20. He has always been; there never was a time when He was not, per same verses plus Mic 5:2, Rev 1:8, 22:13

3. The Bible also calls the Holy Spirit God, Act 5:4, also called JHWH, see Heb 3:7 cf Ps 95, Heb 10:15,16 cf Jer 31:33.

So then, how could Jesus who has always been be called "Son?"

First, let me re-state what I had pointed out previously.

1. At His conception & birth - ESV | ýLk 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. ý32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.

2. At His baptism - ESV | ýMt 3:17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

3. By horizo declaration/decree at His resurrection, NASB95 | ýRo 1:4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,

Now let's look at Heb 1. Verse 2 says, ESV | ‎Heb 1:2 "but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."

When did God speak to us through His Son? It says, "In these last days," i.e. when He became flesh. The phrase, "through whom also he created the world," may just mean that Christ AS God was/is the Creator as in Jn 1:1-3 & Col 1:16, and not necessarily as Son.

Why do I say that? Now let's look at Heb 1:5 ESV | ‎Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”?

If Christ is the Alpha & Omega just like the Father, and is from everlasting just like the Father, then WHEN was the "today" spoken of in this verse?

I think v6 gives the answer, ESV | ‎Heb 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

That is why Christ was/is "Son" by decree & becoming flesh, and likewise "heir" by "appointment" and elevated above His companions/fellows by anointing.

Let's assume for the moment that you are correct, i.e. that He was already the "Son" before Bethlehem. How then was He the Son? Frankly, I don't have a good, "It is written." But consider at least 2 possibilities.

1. Proleptically, i.e. representing some future act or development as an accomplished fact. That is not a far-fetched notion to a God who is omniscient.

2. Before the incarnation, Christ was Michael the archangel who led the heavenly host. So no doubt to the angelic host, Christ as Michael the archangel looked like one of them. The angels are also "sons of God." Did the second person of the Godhead an angelic Son of God by decree/appointment just like He was when He became flesh?

[Gibs]

The thing you all are not seeing is if Jesus was separate Deity Himself, how could He overcome as a man? Only a man could stand in the place of the first Adam and Jesus of Mary was chosen for that long before the creation of the world.

God the Father was in Him and men even very close to Him only saw the man that He had to overcome as! He was a man, He could fall in sin as Adam did and Adam didn't even have a fallen nature to his account. Satan no doubt was jubilant that he had a lesser one to overcome than Adam.

And and emphatic no that Jesus the man was the creator of the worlds, the one who came in Him was, Yahweh of Hosts, the extension of the Father predestined to come in the babe born of Mary, a decree was made,

Ps 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

That decree was of long long ago.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world

[Dr. Waite]

Quote:

Let's assume for the moment that you are correct, i.e. that He was already the "Son" before Bethlehem. How then was He the Son? Frankly, I don't have a good, "It is written." But consider at least 2 possibilities.

1. Proleptically, i.e. representing some future act or development as an accomplished fact. That is not a far-fetched notion to a God who is omniscient.

2. Before the incarnation, Christ was Michael the archangel who led the heavenly host. So no doubt to the angelic host, Christ as Michael the archangel looked like one of them. The angels are also "sons of God." Did the second person of the Godhead an angelic Son of God by decree/appointment just like He was when He became flesh?

"Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, [and] spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." Daniel 3:24-25

It was the Son of God who appeared in the fiery furnace with the three Hebrews:

"How did Nebuchadnezzar know that the form of the fourth was like the Son of God? He had heard of the Son of God from the Hebrew captives that were in his kingdom. They had brought the knowledge of the living God who ruleth all things. Then Nebuchadnezzar called forth the servants of God, and they had not so much as the smell of fire upon them. If you are called to go through the fiery furnace for Christ's sake, Jesus will be at your side. "When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walketh through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee." {RH, May 3, 1892 par. 10}"

[Gibs]

Didn't you notice "like" like the Son of God. So it was a likeness as the Son of God and man as the son of man's time was not yet.

Yes God who was there too in the likeness, which no doubt was Yahweh of Hosts who would be the Redeemer for man once He came in Jesus. He could not be man's redeemer until He came in man. He had to be the second Adam to be the Redeemer. He, Jesus did that with the power of the first Adam but with the disadvantage of bearing our fallen nature.

Yes Jesus possesses all the power of the Father in Him and will until all is complete of the sin and rebellion problem. He is positively at our side if we are one of His precious ones.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

It was the Son of God who appeared in the fiery furnace with the three Hebrews:

"How did Nebuchadnezzar know that the form of the fourth was like the Son of God? He had heard of the Son of God from the Hebrew captives that were in his kingdom. They had brought the knowledge of the living God who ruleth all things. Then Nebuchadnezzar called forth the servants of God, and they had not so much as the smell of fire upon them. If you are called to go through the fiery furnace for Christ's sake, Jesus will be at your side. "When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walketh through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee." {RH, May 3, 1892 par. 10}"

ESV | ýDa 3:25 He answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.”

ýýNASB95 | ýDa 3:25 He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

ýýNIV84 | ýDa 3:25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

"Son of God" as applied to one unique individual is not an OT term. It is uniquely a NT term applied to Christ. Furthermore, Nebuchadnezzar was a polytheist. The Aramaic elahin for god is plural, that is why the ESV, NASB, NIV and many others translate it as "son of the gods".

Since you are citing an EGW statement from the RH, let me remind you this statement of hers:

"In Christ is life original, unborrowed, underived." DA 530

[o2bwise]

Hi,

Quote:

Let's assume for the moment that you are correct, i.e. that He was already the "Son" before Bethlehem. How then was He the Son? Frankly, I don't have a good, "It is written."

I'll bet this has been responded to at least a half dozen times in this thread - either by Micah 5:2 or Proverbs 8.

True, one reference is obscure perhaps (Micah 5:2) and the other is reliant on seeing wisdom as a metaphor.

But, there is more support while I certainly acquiesce that the above may not be real direct.

Then again, look at the doctrinal pluralism of professed Christianity. Maybe this is evidence that some truth (much truth, even?) is somewhat veiled in His Word.

If so, your criteria of I don't have a good "It is written" (and by the way, a criteria that is far from precise - what is a "good?") may be one that cannot identify the truth, whatever the truth may be.

Blessings,

Tony

[o2bwise]

Hi gibs,

Quote:

there is no born in Heaven, ever.

What is your support for this assertion?

Blessings,

Tony

[Gerr]

The thing you all are not seeing is if Jesus was separate Deity Himself, how could He overcome as a man? Only a man could stand in the place of the first Adam and Jesus of Mary was chosen for that long before the creation of the world.

God the Father was in Him and men even very close to Him only saw the man that He had to overcome as! He was a man, He could fall in sin as Adam did and Adam didn't even have a fallen nature to his account. Satan no doubt was jubilant that he had a lesser one to overcome than Adam.

Gibs, I can't make sense of what you are saying. What do you mean, "if Jesus was a separate Deity Himself, how could He overcome as a man?" You could ask exactly the same question if God the Father was the God in Christ, how could He overcome as man?

Yes, "only a man could stand in the place of the first Adam..." That is why Christ laid that divinity aside,

ESV | ýPhp 2:6 "who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, ý7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men."

Quote:

And and emphatic no that Jesus the man was the creator of the worlds, the one who came in Him was, Yahweh of Hosts,

Yes, it was JHWH Himself who became flesh!!! But you refuse to see that JHWH was/is a name that was equally applicable to the pre-incarnate Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father.

Look at Heb 1 again. It speaks of TWO different Beings who are both called GOD.

[Gibs]

Gerry,

We know that The Father was before anything and in the beginning He brought from Himself HIS Redeemer. So in dead reality The Father of course is first.

Now, we also know Jesus stated "I am the first!"

Now Gerry there is only ONE way He did not lie and that is He and the Father ARE ONE! Yes one and the same substance!

Now who was this in the beginning? He was Yahweh of Hosts, The Father's Redeemer as He knew He would need one. The extension, projection of Himself, a gift of Himself.

So at Bethlehem Heaven was emptied of Yahweh of Hosts of whom the Father sent to do the creation and Hosts, Satan and his included.

He came in Mary's Babe, Jesus Christ, a man and the Son of God. It pleased The Father that in Him He would dwell in all fullness. He is a Spirit!

And so it is a fact He was Emmanuel, God the Father with us in a body of flesh, the body prepared Him.

We need to get this clear, Jesus could state in truth I am the first because the Father is His Substance of which came from the Father Himself, not another God, but the ONE AND ONLY God manifest in the flesh.

He was not born in Heaven, or created in Heaven, He and the Father ARE ONE SUBSTANCE. No other persons involed except Jesus Christ born of Mary. Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ the man, not the mother of God, God has no mother.

You can't have a Divine Son before Bethlehem to come in THE ONLY BEGOTTEN Son at Bethlehem. Who would He be born of? Is God a mother and a woman?

No for sure not! God is a Spirit. He does have a likeness as Adam came that way. Then a woman was made of Adam.

"ONLY BEGOTTEN" is the SOLE-NONE OTHER Son! A son is a born entity and none of any entity was ever born in Heaven, the born affair is only of man for pro-creation.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

You see Yahweh is the Saviour, hence, Yahweh-Messiah.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

It was the Son of God who appeared in the fiery furnace with the three Hebrews:

"How did Nebuchadnezzar know that the form of the fourth was like the Son of God? He had heard of the Son of God from the Hebrew captives that were in his kingdom. They had brought the knowledge of the living God who ruleth all things. Then Nebuchadnezzar called forth the servants of God, and they had not so much as the smell of fire upon them. If you are called to go through the fiery furnace for Christ's sake, Jesus will be at your side. "When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walketh through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee." {RH, May 3, 1892 par. 10}"

ESV | ýDa 3:25 He answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.”

ýýNASB95 | ýDa 3:25 He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

ýýNIV84 | ýDa 3:25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

"Son of God" as applied to one unique individual is not an OT term. It is uniquely a NT term applied to Christ. Furthermore, Nebuchadnezzar was a polytheist. The Aramaic elahin for god is plural, that is why the ESV, NASB, NIV and many others translate it as "son of the gods".

Since you are citing an EGW statement from the RH, let me remind you this statement of hers:

"In Christ is life original, unborrowed, underived." DA 530

Dr. Cabalo:

Let me remind you of what Jesus Christ said:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself" John 5:25-26

The life that the Father, the only true God, had to give his Son was "life original, unborrowed, underived" and the "life within himself" that the Father, the only true God, gave to his Son was "life original, unborrowed, underived".

[Gerr]

I'll just have to wait for the Lord to clarify that for me - how Christ could have "life original, unborrowed, underived," and yet it's a life granted to Him. All I know is that the Son is "God in the highest sense." He is the Creator and holds all creation together. He is no less God than the Father. He is to be worshiped just like the Father.

How do you see the Holy Spirit then?

[Dr. Waite]

I'll just have to wait for the Lord to clarify that for me - how Christ could have "life original, unborrowed, underived," and yet it's a life granted to Him. All I know is that the Son is "God in the highest sense." He is the Creator and holds all creation together. He is no less God than the Father. He is to be worshiped just like the Father.

How do you see the Holy Spirit then?

"[There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all." Ephesians 4:5-6

"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty." 2 Cortinthians 3:17

We are clearly told who the "one Spirit" is.

[Gibs]

Gerry,

It is simple. The only way that He, Jesus can be truthful in stating He too is the pre-existent one is that He is one and the same substance as The Father, which He states that He is.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one. Yes He claimed to be The God,

Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

In worshipping Jesus it is worship of the Father and is not robbery to Him and He tells us that He is a Jealous God!

It is a mysterious union made of a man with our fallen nature with the ONE AND ONLY DEITY.

This is the only mystery of the whole thing and then when it is completed our Father will be ALL IN ALL AGAIN! Wonder of Wonders!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[debbym]

Quote:

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one. Yes He claimed to be The God,

Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

In worshiping Jesus it is worship of the Father and is not robbery to Him and He tells us that He is a Jealous God!

this is also a very sore point with the Muslims, they can accept Jesus as wise, and loving, and a prophet, and a great teacher, but do not make him God.

it arouses persecution from them also.

some of us think if God became one with fallen humanity it would somehow pollute and make God unholy, this is not so. Jesus could touch the leper and not become polluted, he could touch the sinner and not become impure. And Jesus can still do this, he can come and live in our hearts and our fallen nature cannot overcome the purity and holiness of God.

Praise God!

[Gibs]

Great condensation of Our Heavenly Father, coming to us and being with us in Jesus Christ.

Yes, right with us and knowing us and yet loving us even to redeem us.

God is Spirit and now of course since Jesus is now in the Most Holy place in Heaven for us He is with us in Spirit, the Comforter.

Paul clears up a lot of mysteries,

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I'll just have to wait for the Lord to clarify that for me - how Christ could have "life original, unborrowed, underived," and yet it's a life granted to Him. All I know is that the Son is "God in the highest sense." He is the Creator and holds all creation together. He is no less God than the Father. He is to be worshiped just like the Father.

How do you see the Holy Spirit then?

"[There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all." Ephesians 4:5-6

"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty." 2 Cortinthians 3:17

We are clearly told who the "one Spirit" is.

Can you speak more clearly?

[Gerr]

Gerry,

It is simple. The only way that He, Jesus can be truthful in stating He too is the pre-existent one is that He is one and the same substance as The Father, which He states that He is.

Sorry, Gibs. Your modalistic theology on the Godhead makes no sense to me. Jesus after His baptism talked to the Father, or rather the Father spoke to Jesus. Ditto at the mount of Transfiguration. And Jesus called out to the Father at the Cross and not to Himself. The Father AND the Lamb sit on the same throne and worshiped by all creation.

[Gibs]

Jesus had to operate just as we do, as a man, and so He went to the Father as we must in prayer. Satan watched Him closely to see that He didn't reach within and use more power than any man can have. To have done so, Jesus would have lost to Satan.

I don't use theology as that is theory, I use the straight laced Word of God and use EGW writings for a commentary.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

Jesus had to operate just as we do, as a man, and so He went to the Father as we must in prayer. Satan watched Him closely to see that He didn't reach within and use more power than any man can have. To have done so, Jesus would have lost to Satan.

Look, if the Father came down in the person of Christ, i.e. the Father incarnated, who was left in heaven for the Father in Christ to talk to?

Quote:

I don't use theology as that is theory, I use the straight laced Word of God and use EGW writings for a commentary.

And what do you think others have been doing?

[Gibs]

Gerry, you surprise me, don't you know what happened in the beginning before the Father did any thing else. He extended of Himself His Redeemer and he was named Yahweh of Hosts. Proverbs 8:22 and on and Isaiah 44:6.

Then at Bethlehem that part of our Father He set apart for the purpose of entering into Jesus Christ as He forsaw this all long before the fact. It was decreed. Ps 2:7

So He Jesus did have the fullness of God the Father in Him and could only use the same power of the first Adam. He had to live and overcome and pray to the Father in Heaven same as we as He dare not take on any advantage of using the power of the Father in Him.

There is not two Gods or Three ever up through time from all eternity past nor into all eternity future.

Read these two verses and notice who your Saviour is!

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

It is as clear as crystal to me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.