The Trinity?

[epaminondas]

Quote:

LD, some are not interested in sharing what they believe, just telling you its there way or your an idiot.

Come on! You're way past your school years. You should master English at a basic level. There are many who contend that bad grammar is not a sign of low intelligence - mostly those guilty of bad grammar themselves - but I can assure you, bad grammar is not a sign of high intelligence either. The difference between "your" and "you're" and "there" and "their" was enforced by the cane in English Second Language where I learned English, long ago and far away.

...just telling you it's their way or you're an idiot.

What would you call someone who can't even follow the following very clear and very simple argument? Intelligent?

1)It is absolutely essential for the trinitarian dogma that both Jesus and the Holy spirit are true god/s.

2)Jesus said the Father is the only true God.

3)Therefore, either Jesus was wrong, or the trinitarian dogma is wrong.

[LynnDel]

Quote:

Even so, there's going to be a conclusion, explicit or implied. They're not going to come out saying something like "it's a personal choice" or "the non-trinitarian position really has the strongest Biblical backing" or "from Biblical evidence, the trinitarian position should be rejected."

You can borrow on your house and put all the money on an outcome where the trinitarian position will be vindicated. Only, you won't find a bookmaker even willing to give you 1:1 odds on that.

See bolded sentence above. I do believe that is exactly what is going to be the conclusion: "Study for yourself and let God guide you to the answer." That was the concluding statement when the six-part series ended today (three presentations for each side). Tomorrow (Wednesday) there will be a question and answer hour at 10 am PDT. You can see it at www.bibleexplorations.com

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Even so, there's going to be a conclusion, explicit or implied. They're not going to come out saying something like "it's a personal choice" or "the non-trinitarian position really has the strongest Biblical backing" or "from Biblical evidence, the trinitarian position should be rejected."

You can borrow on your house and put all the money on an outcome where the trinitarian position will be vindicated. Only, you won't find a bookmaker even willing to give you 1:1 odds on that.

See bolded sentence above. I do believe that is exactly what is going to be the conclusion: "Study for yourself and let God guide you to the answer." That was the concluding statement when the six-part series ended today (three presentations for each side). Tomorrow (Wednesday) there will be a question and answer hour at 10 am PDT. You can see it at www.bibleexplorations.com

That is a weakening in the trinitarian position. In many churches certain people employed by the church, like pastors and ministers, can lose their jobs if they openly reject the trinity. Do they now have a choice? What about SDA pastors?

Is the light at long last breaking through?

[Gerr]

Quote:

What would you call someone who can't even follow the following very clear and very simple argument? Intelligent?

Since you are calling into question the intelligence of people who can't follow your line of reasoning, what would you call a person who can't see or hear or understand when the Bible plainly says - Jesus Christ is God, Jn 1:1, Heb 1:8,9, and the Holy Spirit is God, Ac 5:4, Heb 3:7-15 cf Ps 95?

[phkrause]

Since you are calling into question the intelligence of people who can't follow your line of reasoning, what would you call a person who can't see or hear or understand when the Bible plainly says - Jesus Christ is God, Jn 1:1, Heb 1:8,9, and the Holy Spirit is God, Ac 5:4, Heb 3:7-15 cf Ps 95?

Its sad Gerry, some actually think there salvation is based on believing or not believing in the Trinity.

[Gibs]

PK, it possibly could be the way some hold trinity.

Our Redeemer is actually the Father with us in the man Jesus Christ, the Son of God and the son of man. He is Emmanuel, meaning God with us. Yahweh the Father being the one and only true God.

The union made in Jesus and Deity is beyond our understanding as we are finite and this is infinity in the finite union.

Isaiah makes it clear who is our Saviour, now this our finite minds can fathom,

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Yes indeed, the fullness of the Father was in Him and presently still is as the sin problem is not yet resolved.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[o2bwise]

Quote:

Jesus Christ is God, Jn 1:1

It just does not say that. Definite article does not precede theos when referring to the Son.

[o2bwise]

Hi LynnDel,

Quote:

LynnDel:

See bolded sentence above. I do believe that is exactly what is going to be the conclusion: "Study for yourself and let God guide you to the answer." That was the concluding statement when the six-part series ended today (three presentations for each side). Tomorrow (Wednesday) there will be a question and answer hour at 10 am PDT. You can see it at www.bibleexplorations.com

In the interest of total transparency, I would that the presentation also included the secret meetings between Barnhouse and Walter Martin with certain Adventist leaders (Froom and Roy Allen Anderson) where the denomination was going to be labeled a cult partly for its non-trinitarian writings, including piles from Ellen White. Also, the morphology of official writings such as Questions On Doctrine, the 27 Fundamentals, and various Sabbath School Quarterlies. Also the remarkable silence with respect to the denomination informing the laity of the pioneer position and what their biblical justification of it was. Even including Jones and Waggoner.

In the absence of true context like the above, to me it is like deceptively constructing (omission is deception as well) a lofty edifice of purported truth and then having this exchange, but not letting on how in the world this edifice came to be constructed and what the edifice's impact on the overall belief system of the church has become.

To me, it's like holding a conversation on relevant mountain peaks all the while one's back is to Mount Everest and the existence of that particular mountain is not even recognized.

Another rough analogy might be playing a game of basketball all the while one rim is 12' high and its diameter is 3" less than the other one and the referees exclaim, "OK, play ball!"

Blessings,

Tony

[Gibs]

When the sin problem is taken care of, of which Jesus Christ is to reign supreme, then the Deity in Him is returned to Yahweh The Father,

Again read 1 Cor 15:24-28, I will drop verse 28,

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Well there is no mystery to that, Our Father then is all in all of which now for thousands of yrs hasn't been as He has divided or extended Himself to be our Redeemer.

Sure it rings out true,

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Yes brothers and sisters, The Father was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, 2 Cor 5:19, another verification!

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Fully God in a body, and yes the one and only God, Yahweh the Father!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[phkrause]

PK, it possibly could be the way some hold trinity.

Our Redeemer is actually the Father with us in the man Jesus Christ, the Son of God and the son of man. He is Emmanuel, meaning God with us. Yahweh the Father being the one and only true God.

The union made in Jesus and Deity is beyond our understanding as we are finite and this is infinity in the finite union.

Isaiah makes it clear who is our Saviour, now this our finite minds can fathom,

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Yes indeed, the fullness of the Father was in Him and presently still is as the sin problem is not yet resolved.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Brother Gibs, I have no problem with your opinion or how you believe. That's your right and I'm not here to change your mind or anyone else's for that matter. A exchange of ideas is what this thread is about, not one telling others how or what to believe. What disappoints me is those that feel they are superior to others in there thinking. That if we don't think the way they think, you are either ignorant, unintelligent, etc.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

I have no problem with your opinion or how you believe. That's your right and I'm not here to change your mind or anyone else's for that matter. A exchange of ideas is what this thread is about, not one telling others how or what to believe. What disappoints me is those that feel they are superior to others in there thinking. That if we don't think the way they think, you are either ignorant, unintelligent, etc.

I'm OK and you're OK. Everyone has his own truth. There is no right and no wrong - just what we feel at the moment. There or their, they're one and the same. Nobody states facts, just their feelings. Who is to say what is right or wrong? My right is your wrong. It's tangerine trees and marmalade skies. Pass the crack pipe, brother.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

What would you call someone who can't even follow the following very clear and very simple argument? Intelligent?

Since you are calling into question the intelligence of people who can't follow your line of reasoning, what would you call a person who can't see or hear or understand when the Bible plainly says - Jesus Christ is God, Jn 1:1, Heb 1:8,9, and the Holy Spirit is God, Ac 5:4, Heb 3:7-15 cf Ps 95?

[Gibs]

Yes it is a verity that only the Father is God. And it is alwo very true that of Jesus Christ, He is God with us! How can this be?

Very easy, Jesus explained it if we will receive it,

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me

Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Then,

Joh 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

He was and is Yahweh. Before Bethlehem He was Yahweh of Hosts and at Bethlehem He came in the man Jesus Christ and so became Yahweh-Messiah.

You see He is the extension of the Father for Redeemer, not another God with us, but the ONE AND ONLY GOD with us!.

Christ in you is the Father in you as that is who is fully in Him.

Proof,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Again when the sin and rebellion problem is completed Yahweh-Messiah returns to The Father The vested Deity in Him and The Father is ALL IN ALL AGAIN!

Jesus will have a new name!,

Re 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Jesus Christ is God, Jn 1:1

It just does not say that. Definite article does not precede theos when referring to the Son.

Since you have been calling into question the sobriety of people who can't or won't follow your line of reasoning, what would you call a smart person who can't see or hear or understand when the Bible plainly says - Jesus Christ is God, Jn 1:1, Heb 1:8,9, and whom the Father commands the angels to worship (Heb 1:6) and all creation to worship (Rev 5), and the Holy Spirit is God, Ac 5:4, Heb 3:7-15 cf Ps 95?

[Gibs]

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Quit making a mountain of a mole hill, Jesus has plainly revealed this subject,

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[epaminondas]

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Quit making a mountain of a mole hill, Jesus has plainly revealed this subject,

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

None of your quotes is a claim to be the Father or to be a God like the Father. In the first one Jesus just said that he and the Father were so alike that to have seen Jesus was to have seen the Father. In the second one Jesus said that, having met the Father, Jesus would reveal him (tell about him) to some people. I'm still waiting for a quote saying "Jesus and the Father are one and the same" or "Jesus is God, just like the Father." There are enough direct quotes explicitly saying the opposite .

[epaminondas]

Originally Posted By: o2bwise

It just does not say that. Definite article does not precede theos when referring to the Son.

Since you have been calling into question the sobriety of people who can't or won't follow your line of reasoning, what would you call a smart person who can't see or hear or understand when the Bible plainly says - Jesus Christ is God, Jn 1:1, Heb 1:8,9, and whom the Father commands the angels to worship (Heb 1:6) and all creation to worship (Rev 5), and the Holy Spirit is God, Ac 5:4, Heb 3:7-15 cf Ps 95?

I'd call him someone who is smart enough to do some research and see that John 1:1 is mistranslated and does not make any sense (in the beginning was A and A was with B and A was in the way it was translated. He is also smart enough to see that words saying one thing don't say another thing. He is also smart enough to rather go with explicit, direct statements instead of spinning words saying one thing to say something completely different. He's also smart enough to see through the smoke and mirrors of the trinitarians. And instead of following the mindless herd, he thinks for himself.

[Gerr]

Ah, a mistranslation! A missing article!

ESV | ‎Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

‎‎NASB95 | ‎Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

‎‎NIV84 | ‎Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

‎‎NRSV | ‎Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

‎‎KJV 1900 | ‎Jn 1:1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NLT: In the beginning the Word already existed.

The Word was with God,

and the Word was God.

LEB: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 This one was in the beginning with God.

NKJ: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

HCSB: In the beginning was the Word, c

and the Word was with God,

and the Word was God.

NET: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.

Biblical Studies Press. (2006). The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible (Jn 1:1). Biblical Studies Press.

NCV: In the beginning there was the Word.  The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was already with God in the beginning.

GOD'S WORD Translation. 1995 (Jn 1:1–2). Grand Rapids: Baker Publishing Group.

ISV: In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He existed in the beginning with God

RSV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God;

AMPLIFIED: IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself

DARBY: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

Darby, J. N. (1996). The Holy Scriptures: A new translation from the original languages (Jn 1:1–2). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

YLT: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; 2this one was in the beginning with God;

TNIV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning

IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

The Cambridge Paragraph Bible: Of the Authorized English Version. 1873 (cxix). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity. This Word was in the beginning in fellowship with God the Father.

Wuest, K. S. (1961). The New Testament: An expanded translation (Jn 1:1–5). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

What do you call someone who can't see or hear or understand something so plain? What do you call someone who builds himself up by demeaning the intelligence of others?

[Gibs]

Yes Gerry, in the beginning before anything made visible The Father brought forth a gift of Himself, His Word, Thoughts and full power, a division of Himself to make visible a lot of creation and the Hosts.

Yahweh of Hosts made visible this earth and made it a very wonderful livable place and made visible most of the rest of creation. Some things are not yet visible to us, example Spirit beings.

The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, the Father Himself came in the Man Jesus Christ and a union of man with a fallen nature and The Deity Himself.

His Word is Spirit and He comes and guides us into all truth and things to come.

Absolutely One God and Father of all!

Sure enough, He told Philip, you've seen me you've seen The Father!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gordon1]

If you are interested in a calm, reasoned discussion by Adventists of two sides of the trinity question, see live video presentations today at 3 and 4 pm PDT at www.bibleexplorations.com. The first part was yesterday, and the third part will be the same time tomorrow. I believe that on Wednesday morning they have a round table discussion.

LD

Did you attend in person?

Many people?

[Gordon1]

Its sad Gerry, some actually think there salvation is based on believing or not believing in the Trinity.

Yes Peter, and some believe their salvation is based upon believing, or not believing in the Sabbath.

There is nothing sad about either case, both contain an element of truth, since we are saved by faith (belief).

But belief in the True God must surely take precedence over belief in one of His Ten Laws.

"A knowledge of God is the foundation of all true education and of all true service.

...It is this alone that can make us like God in character." Ministry of Healing 409.

Here begin 55 pages entitled "The Essential Knowledge".

[Gordon1]

"A knowledge of God is the foundation of all true education and of all true service.

...It is this alone that can make us like God in character." Ministry of Healing 409.

If the knowledge of God can alone make us like God in character,

it would be a very cruel God to require of us this knowledge, yet keep it hidden.

But the Roman priests and others claim:

"It's a mystery, you can't understand, don't go there, it's sacred ground."

Many do not realize that Satan is continually seeking to block access to

the one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1 Tim. 2:5)

It's true that the secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deut. 29:29)

[phkrause]

What do you call someone who can't see or hear or understand something so plain? What do you call someone who builds himself up by demeaning the intelligence of others?

That's all they know how to do, and if that's called intelligence, I'm glad I don't have that kind of intelligence.

[phkrause]

[epaminondas]

Ah, a mistranslation! A missing article!

ESV | ‎Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

‎‎NASB95 | ‎Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

‎‎NIV84 | ‎Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

‎‎NRSV | ‎Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

‎‎KJV 1900 | ‎Jn 1:1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NLT: In the beginning the Word already existed.

The Word was with God,

and the Word was God.

LEB: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 This one was in the beginning with God.

NKJ: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

HCSB: In the beginning was the Word, c

and the Word was with God,

and the Word was God.

NET: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.

Biblical Studies Press. (2006). The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible (Jn 1:1). Biblical Studies Press.

NCV: In the beginning there was the Word.  The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was already with God in the beginning.

GOD'S WORD Translation. 1995 (Jn 1:1–2). Grand Rapids: Baker Publishing Group.

ISV: In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He existed in the beginning with God

RSV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God;

AMPLIFIED: IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself

DARBY: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

Darby, J. N. (1996). The Holy Scriptures: A new translation from the original languages (Jn 1:1–2). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

YLT: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; 2this one was in the beginning with God;

TNIV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning

IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

The Cambridge Paragraph Bible: Of the Authorized English Version. 1873 (cxix). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity. This Word was in the beginning in fellowship with God the Father.

Wuest, K. S. (1961). The New Testament: An expanded translation (Jn 1:1–5). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

What do you call someone who can't see or hear or understand something so plain? What do you call someone who builds himself up by demeaning the intelligence of others?