The Trinity?

[phkrause]

Mystery and magic? Uh, no. Just saying that if humans can grasp what God is, then God is not that far higher than what we can think up.

I'm in total agreement Gail.

[Ted Oplinger]

Now, hands up, who think Ted's understanding (Jesus is the god who led Israel out of Egypt, therefore Jesus is God) of 1 Cor 10: 1-5 is correct?

And who thinks the reading as it appears in the Bible (there is only one God, the Father in the 1 Cor 8:6 and not Jesus, who is the mediator between God and men because he was the sacrifice for all, in 1 Tim 2:5.) of 1 Cor 8:6 and 1 Tim 2:5 is correct?

The kindest words to describe Ted's understanding of 1 Cor 10:1-5 are "what nonsense."

Anyone who wants to defend Ted's understanding of 1 Cor 10:1-5 will have to nullify all passages like the two mentioned as well as John 17:3 and many others. We can't have conflicting statements in the Bible.

Sorry, e. You didn't wait for the readers' responses to come in. It would appear that, your snark notwithstanding, they don't agree with your reasoning on those verses (that have already been discussed many, many PAGES ago in this thread) were found to be contradictory to what I stated.

Besides, e. I was responding to Kevin H, not to you. Try reading Galatians 5:20, 21 about how not to post responses (and not just in this thread alone - your style is quite apparent everywhere else you post), and verses 22, 23 on how to reply in the Christian spirit.

Blessings,

[ClubV12]

Mystery and magic? The bulk of this thread appears to be smoke, mirrors and wishful thinking!

Triune God, confirmed on like, page 2.

[Gerr]

Hmmm. I have not noticed that bottom line statement before. Are you saying that salvation comes ONLY through the SDA church a la RCC claim?

[ClubV12]

Yup, that is EXACTLY what I'm saying Gerry, I cut down the bushes hiding the light. Catholics aren't afraid to boldy state what they believe, should we be?

[epaminondas]

Yup, that is EXACTLY what I'm saying Gerry, I cut down the bushes hiding the light. Catholics aren't afraid to boldy state what they believe, should we be?

Holding such opinions, I would have been worried if you agreed with me.

[epaminondas]

Mystery and magic? Uh, no. Just saying that if humans can grasp what God is, then God is not that far higher than what we can think up.

So what do you call your explanation that the trinity is beyond human understanding, then? You are right, three gods being one god is beyond human understanding as is one god composed of three full gods. You don't even believe Jesus when he said the Father is "the only true God." So, why should you believe me if you would argue with Jesus? If Jesus made the statement that the Father is "the only true God" and then a few verses on said something else, clearly, Jesus was inconsistent. Do you think Jesus was inconsistent?

Even if the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit would come and tell you the trinity dogma is so much hocus pocus, you still won't believe it.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Gail

Mystery and magic? Uh, no. Just saying that if humans can grasp what God is, then God is not that far higher than what we can think up.

So what do you call your explanation that the trinity is beyond human understanding, then? You are right, three gods being one god is beyond human understanding as is one god composed of three full gods. You don't even believe Jesus when he said the Father is "the only true God." So, why should you believe me if you would argue with Jesus? If Jesus made the statement that the Father is "the only true God" and then a few verses on said something else, clearly, Jesus was inconsistent. Do you think Jesus was inconsistent?

Even if the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit would come and tell you the trinity dogma is so much hocus pocus, you still won't believe it.

[o2bwise]

Hi Gerry,

Quote:

Well, I was not the author of Genesis and Matthew, so if they violate your reason, deal with it.

There is a difference between WHAT is said and what one believes it to mean.

Both the tone and substance of the above is - uh - well, on the low side of the "how to dialogue in a decent manner" divide.

Tony

[o2bwise]

Hi Gail,

Mystery and magic? Uh, no. Just saying that if humans can grasp what God is, then God is not that far higher than what we can think up.

Are you certain the above applies to one's confession that the one true God is the Father and He begat a Son in the eternity of time past?

Blessings,

Tony

[o2bwise]

Mystery and magic? The bulk of this thread appears to be smoke, mirrors and wishful thinking!

Triune God, confirmed on like, page 2.

You have GOT to be kidding me!

[o2bwise]

Originally Posted By: John317

Before then, He was not literally the Son. But after His conception and birth, He became the Son of God in a new sense, because then the Father in heaven became Christ's literal daddy.

That's a neat way to try to explain it away, but it doesn't hold up. The Old Testament speaks about the Son of God in more than one place.

Also, Ellen White says He was the Son of God, BEFORE He came to earth as a man:

The statement is made that the devil believed and trembled. While he was in heaven, he believed that Christ was the Son of God, and when upon this earth he was in conflict with Him here on the field of battle. {CTr 220.3}

There are more statements that say the same thing. That He was the begotten Son of God, before being born of a woman.

It was decreed in the councils of God that the only-begotten Son of God must leave His high command in heaven, and clothe His divinity with humanity, and come to the world. {4BC 1153.5}

FANTASTIC!!!

Interesting.

Not only is White clearly saying Jesus was the only begotten Son of God before the incarnation, it is implied it is not a role.

Why do I say this?

If we adopt a "role" hypothesis (thus denying Jesus really is the only begotten Son of God), that role has no purpose until the incarnation.

Thanks!

Tony

[o2bwise]

Quote:

The mystery being the fallacy that "one God" is compatible with "more than one conscious existence."

This is so self evident and clear, that it is unlikely that people who don't agree with this can be swayed by evidence or logic.

To me, e, this is one of two main issues, the other being the Christian confession of "Who do you say that I am?"

Blessings,

Tony

[o2bwise]

Hi,

I'd like to refer back to my "bucket" object lesson.

Philippians 1:1-6

1 Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops a and deacons: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, 5 for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Now, my choice was random. I wasn't concerned.

Let's look at it for most apparent meanings...

Verse 1 mentions Jesus Christ twice. In each case not referring to Him as "God."

Verse 2 has the word "God" in it.

WHO? The Father only, that's who.

Most apparent meaning? The Father only is God. And not only that, but Jesus Christ is mentioned FOUR TIMES AND NOT ONCE AS "GOD." All in a passage that has no impediment with respect to mentioning God. And what of the HS?

Not mentioned at all.

If I was trinitarian, I would WANT the passage to read:

Grace to you and peace from God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

But, it doesn't.

And you know what?

IT NEVER DOES!!! NEVER!!!

I believe truth is found according to the preponderance of evidence. And that means TENSION IS MINIMIZED. And that means a meaning other than the most apparent is minimized, taking the Bible as a whole.

If the preceding paragraph is true, in order to FORCE FIT the Trinity doctrine, LITERALLY HUNDREDS OF PASSAGES MUST BE GIVEN A MEANING OTHER THAN ITS MOST APPARENT.

That is the quintessential proof that it is ERROR. It does not subscribe to any semblance of right biblical examination.

So let me mention some rather foundational points.

1. The Trinity defies reason.

2. The Trinity defies Scripture

3. There is another belief that embraces reason and Scripture and guess what? (Wonder of wonders)

It is the one that confesses Christ to be the only begotten Son of God.

Blessings,

Tony

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: John317

Before then, He was not literally the Son. But after His conception and birth, He became the Son of God in a new sense, because then the Father in heaven became Christ's literal daddy.

That's a neat way to try to explain it away, but it doesn't hold up. The Old Testament speaks about the Son of God in more than one place.

Also, Ellen White says He was the Son of God, BEFORE He came to earth as a man:

The statement is made that the devil believed and trembled. While he was in heaven, he believed that Christ was the Son of God, and when upon this earth he was in conflict with Him here on the field of battle. {CTr 220.3}

There are more statements that say the same thing. That He was the begotten Son of God, before being born of a woman.

It was decreed in the councils of God that the only-begotten Son of God must leave His high command in heaven, and clothe His divinity with humanity, and come to the world. {4BC 1153.5}

The Father's Redeemer was present in Heaven but had not been infused into His Only Begotten Son until Bethlehem. He the Father as Redeemer came in Mary's babe Jesus and Heaven was emptied of their beloved Commander.

Before Bethlehem there was no other God formed, born or created. Any statements contrary wise are and must be erroneous.

ONLY Begotten Son, Only means no other!

The Father's Redeemer before Bethlehem name was Yahweh of Hosts. Isa 44:6

He came in Jesus Christ and was made our Redeemer for us at Bethlehem! He gave of Himself!

Note! "HIS REDEEMER" here,

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and "his redeemer" the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[o2bwise]

Quote:

Gibs:

Any statements contrary wise are and must be erroneous.

Nope.

[Gibs]

How many sons do our Father have? Yes! One, The ONLY begotten one at Bethlehem.

Tell me of any other!

Before Bethlehem we have this statement!

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God

No Son was born, created or formed before Bethlehem, where is the record of such?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ChildofChrist]

I haven't been on in a long time, but this past week caused me to come 'ahuntin for opinions on the Trinity. Someone had passed on some papers about a church in Michigan that split over that topic. (Here I thought it was just California and Florida that liked to cause problems.

In the local church we'll be going through the Fundamental Beliefs one Sabbath each month and I pulled the Trinity. So I began to search both here and elsewhere.

I learned Sister Ellen believed in it from this forum topic. While in these papers, it seems that James did not, bringing out the fact that Ellen never said anything contra. I believe now that the Lord didn't give her the insight until a few years down the road. Desire of Ages P.671. I'm the sort that also likes it to be in the scriptures too and this afternoon I found 1st John 5.7-8 and feel relaxed about proceeding with this study from the front.

[ClubV12]

Also bear in mind Ellen White was very cautious about involving herself in subjects that the brethren were not in harmony on. She allowed plenty of time for them to work out the particulars without introducing or feeding the controversy.

When you consider her roll in doctrinal issues it is difficult to find even a single instance where she introduced some new specific doctrine. At least, I haven't found that to be the case. She CONFIRMED the study and encouraged the study of doctrinal points. By divine enlightment, confirmed or denied the path being followed, but did not take an active roll in establishing them.

A young man about to enter the ministry came to her with concerns that his views on the Holy Spirit were not in harmony with his brethrens view and as a result, felt he could not enter the ministry. He came to ask her what the correct view on the Holy Spirit was. She never answered the question. She counseled him on the need to be in harmony with his brethren. Told him to return home, find that harmony and enter the ministry. On the doctrinal question of the Holy Spirit, she had nothing to offer him. This was a typical response of hers to many on many different subjects.

For those that have been unable to resolve the triune God doctrine of the Church after this many pages, I leave you to whatever position you have taken. I have nothing to offer you. I support the Churches view on this doctrine and I believe Ellen White supports it as well.

[Gibs]

The scripture is plain and easy enough for even a fifth grader on this and so I take my stand on the Holy Word. Christ said, "I and my Father are one!", and he didnt mean three.

The the two verses before Joh 10:30 and the context will confirm it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest]

There are more statements that say the same thing. That He was the begotten Son of God, before being born of a woman.

It was decreed in the councils of God that the only-begotten Son of God must leave His high command in heaven, and clothe His divinity with humanity, and come to the world. {4BC 1153.5}

[ClubV12]

That gave me a chuckle. All we need is the ten commandments, so simple a fifth grader could read and understand them. Uh,,, so what was that book of Moses all about? Why did he need to write in detail and explanation of the ten?

The Baptists and many other denominations might agree with you Gibs, all they need is the bible! And what has been the result of that? Rapture, eternal burning hell fire, Sunday worship oh, and aryan belief in some cases!

Reject the divine counsel of the Lords inspired messenger on this and any other doctrine and you might as well be a Jehovah Witness for all the light you will receive on doctrine!

[Gibs]

If He had a son before Bethlehem, where is the account of it. Why would He have another at Bethlehem?

The Redeemer extended from Himself was God equally to Himself, not a son, but came in His Only begotten Son at Bethlehem. He was Yahweh of Hosts at that time.

Once into the Body prepared Him He became Yah-saviour, or Yahshua and His name was Jesus and Emmanuel, God with us. Yes the Father with us in that Body prepared Him.

Proof,

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Then,

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Then,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

So if Christ is in you the Father is also!

"ONLY" begotten makes it clear that Son of Mary and of Yahweh is it! No more, period!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest]

If He had a son before Bethlehem, where is the account of it. Why would He have another at Bethlehem?

He didn't have another one. He just sent Him to earth is all. Both the Bible and Ellen White say that God already had a Son.

[Gibs]

The problem is He was born of woman on earth not in Heaven and then who would be His mother?

Redeemer who came in Him at Bethlehem was the Father Himself, not a born one, not a formed one and not a created one, but of His Substance.

Jesus then did not lie when He said "I am the First". Yes even though in time the Father was, but because the Redeemer vested in Mary was one substance with the Father.

And Jesus said "I and my Father are one" yes truly ONE substance!

You see this verse stands true no matter how it is tried to be torn down,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.