The Trinity?

[Gordon1]

I think God is trying to tell us something

"...from the foundation of the world."

[o2bwise]

Hi,

I just want to confess a couple places where it seems to me dialogue is not constructive.

Gibs:

Correct me if I am wrong, but you insist Jesus is God because God is in Him. I just want to say that Ephesians says that WE can be filled with all the fulness of God and so you cannot possibly have a legitimate biblical argument in your favor. Either we must also be God when that same condition is met -or- Jesus need not be God for the simple reason that the qualification you assert cannot always carry the conclusion you reach. (Mark this: I believe Jesus is God, but for an altogether different reason.)

There is nowhere I can go with that line of reasoning and so we are at an impasse.

Gerry:

Your John 17:3 view is similar. If I say, "Dick and Jane had lunch," you would say that it is natural (normal, the obvious thing) to conclude that Jane is Dick.

Your reasoning is nothing short of preposterous.

Others:

I fail to see any acquiescence on my assertion that the trinitarian view forces hundreds of texts be interpreted in a way OTHER than what their clear, obvious apparent interpretation would be.

You know, like:

Grace to you from A)God the Father and B)the Lord Jesus Christ.

Force fit every such text to carry a meaning other than its most apparent.

I have never seen even acknowledgment of this feature of trinitarian homage.

Blessings,

Tony

[o2bwise]

Hi Gordon,

Quote:

(If we did not deserve death (our post-Adam condition), we would not need a Substitute.)

Agreed?

Can we take this offline? I did send you a PM.

Blessings,

Tony

[o2bwise]

Hi Gordon,

Freedom from Trinity includes the potential to love with all one's heart knowing Jesus as God's very own begotten Son.

I praise God for that.

Tony

[Dr. Waite]

Jesus Christ the Son of God was born of Mary here on this earth. Jesus Christ was not born before Bethlehem.

[Gordon1]

Freedom from Trinity includes the potential to love with all one's heart knowing Jesus as God's very own begotten Son.

Restoration begins with this Truth.

[Gordon1]

In John 17:8, Jesus said:

" For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me."

Yes Dr. Waite, like John 8:42 previously quoted, this verse also describes Christ's two births:

Brought forth from the Ancient of Days:

"..have known surely that I came out from thee"

Born through Mary:

"..and they have believed that thou didst send me."

[John317]

Originally Posted By: o2bwise

Jesus is worshiped in a manner similar to a Prince being worshiped.

Exactly Tony.

"That all men should honour the Son,

even as they honour the Father.

He that honoureth not the Son

honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." (John 5:23)

Jesus Christ is worshipped as God-- in the same sense in which the Father is worshipped. See Rev 5: 6-14.

Notice also that God the Father refers to Christ as "God" (not "a god") in Hebrews 1: 8. The writer is contrasting this with what God calls the angels in Hebrews 1: 7, "winds," or "spirits" and "flames of fire."

The Father commands the angels to "worship" Christ (Heb 1: 6). If Christ is anything but true God, worshipping Him would be contrary to God's own law.

[Gordon1]

For a quick affirmation of the Father and Son,

one may read the Epistles of John, and John 17.

If more ambitious, the whole book of John.

As well Patriarchs & Prophets chapter 1,

and Ministry of Healing "A True Knowledge of God" p. 409.

[Gerr]

It's not for man to declare what Jesus deserves.

Far be it for me to declare what Jesus deserves or does not deserve. Let the FATHER Himself pronounce it!!!

ESV | ýHeb 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

And all G0d's angels declare it:

ESV | ýRe 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, ý12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” ý13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”

[o2bwise]

Hi John317,

If you understand that you are no less a man than Adam, you can understand that the belief that Jesus is the only literally begotten Son of God means He is God.

I see two axes to grind. One, HOW Jesus is God (being God's literal Son -or- some other alleged means such as being a co-eternal Person with other co-eternal Person(s)).

Two, appreciating that there is no reduction in the stature of Jesus when He is understood to be God's Son -or- the belief that there is.

The latter being tantamount to finding the confession that Jesus is the Son of the Living God to be some kind of horrible view.

Blessings,

Tony

[Dr. Waite]

Quote:

Exactly Tony.

"That all men should honour the Son,

even as they honour the Father.

He that honoureth not the Son

honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." (John 5:23)

Quote:

Jesus Christ is worshipped as God-- in the same sense in which the Father is worshipped. See Rev 5: 6-14.

Notice also that God the Father refers to Christ as "God" (not "a god") in Hebrews 1: 8. The writer is contrasting this with what God calls the angels in Hebrews 1: 7, "winds," or "spirits" and "flames of fire."

The Father commands the angels to "worship" Christ (Heb 1: 6). If Christ is anything but true God, worshipping Him would be contrary to God's own law.

Yes, but there is a difference. God the Father does NOT have a god who he worships, whereas Jesus Christ, the Son of Living God, has a god who he worships(Revelation 3:12). The "God" who he worships is "the only true God" (John 17:3).

I think we should follow the example of Jesus Christ and worship the god who He worships.

Where in the Bible is it recorded that Jesus Christ worshiped a "unity of three co-eternal persons"?

[John317]

God speaks plainly, for the working man. I sent my Son.

He had a Son to send. God is not the author of confusion.

"Those who derided His claim to be the Son of God are speechless now." Great Controversy 643.

All Seventh-day Adventists believe that God sent His one and only Son into the world. There is no disagreement here at all.

And of course we also fully agree with Christ's claim to be the Son of God. In fact, we firmly believe that Christ is "the eternal, self-existent Son of God" and that He has always stood at the right hand of the Father.

We believe, too, that Christ is the Lamb of God. But not literally, right?

The disagreement, then, has to do with what "Son of God" means.

The Bible uses "the son of" and "father" in different ways. For instance, Jesus said that some of the Jews had Satan as their "father." Did Jesus mean this literally?

He also told the same Jews that they were "children" of Satan. See John 8.

What did Jesus mean? In what way were they "children" of Satan?

Do you remember the "sons of the singers" and "the sons of the prophets"? They were not literally the sons of the singers or sons of the prophets, were they?

In those instances, isn't "the sons of"= "of the order of"?

There are many Bible examples of this.

So when we look at "the Son of God" in this way, we see that it means Jesus Christ is "of the order of God," that is, Christ is God. He is equal with God. This is exactly the way the Jews of Christ's time understood it.

Similarly, the title, "Son of man," means "of the order of man." Jesus Christ is both "Son of God" and "Son of man." Those expressions tell us that Christ is both God and man.

They are not intended to tell us how Christ came into existence in heaven.

Rather, they tell us who Christ is and what His unique, loving relationship to God the Father is like.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

God speaks plainly, for the working man. I sent my Son.

He had a Son to send. God is not the author of confusion.

"Those who derided His claim to be the Son of God are speechless now." Great Controversy 643.

All Seventh-day Adventists believe that God sent His one and only Son into the world. There is no disagreement here at all.

[Gordon1]

Yes, but there is a difference. God the Father does NOT have a god who he worships, whereas Jesus Christ, the Son of Living God, has a god who he worships (Revelation 3:12). The "God" who he worships is "the only true God" (John 17:3).

Yes Dr. Waite, a very significant difference.

"I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

God the Father "who only hath immortality", raised Christ from the dead.

[Gordon1]

Did Mary, the mother of Jesus, begat a son in "the express image of the Father's person"?

I doubt we could behold God's express image and live.

Thus incarnation (taking human flesh) at Bethlehem was a veil of protection.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

Yes, but there is a difference. God the Father does NOT have a god who he worships, whereas Jesus Christ, the Son of Living God, has a god who he worships (Revelation 3:12). The "God" who he worships is "the only true God" (John 17:3).

Yes Dr. Waite, a very significant difference.

"I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

God the Father "who only hath immortality", raised Christ from the dead.

And to be saved we have to believe that the Father raised Christ from the dead.

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9

[Gibs]

Well you may have it partly right as we know His ONLY Begotten Son was born of Mary at Bethlehem.

What you are missing is the Fact that Heaven was emptied of the Fathers Redeemer, an extension of Himself and came in Marys son, Jesus Christ.

Fully the Father came in Him at birth! Fully God in a body! The body prepared him,

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

One God and Father of all, came in Jesus Christ to be our Redeemer. And so now all CAN have Christ dwelling within and so any who do also have the Father in them. Yes the Father is in Christ, the ONE and ONLY GOD there is and ever will be. Read,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Jesus intended to have us know these things, hear Him,

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Yes, I must agree He has done just that, it is in His Word for us!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gordon1]

And to be saved we have to believe that the Father raised Christ from the dead.

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9

Yes Dr. Waite, this is a salvational issue:

"But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed ,

if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead." Romans 4:24.

[o2bwise]

Hi John17,

Quote:

All Seventh-day Adventists believe that God sent His one and only Son into the world. There is no disagreement here at all.

Your claim is true assuming one thing. The purpose of language is something other than to convey meaning.

As examples...

A man can say he believes there are married couples. He goes on to say he and his boy friend are a married couple.

Another person might say he believes in dogs and then exclaim, "There's one over there!" as he points to a squirrel.

No, the claim taken as identical choices of words, is insufficient.

Not when what matters is what one means.

Blessings,

Tony

[Dr. Waite]

Well you may have it partly right as we know His ONLY Begotten Son was born of Mary at Bethlehem.

What you are missing is the Fact that Heaven was emptied of the Fathers Redeemer, an extension of Himself and came in Marys son, Jesus Christ.

Fully the Father came in Him at birth! Fully God in a body! The body prepared him,

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

One God and Father of all, came in Jesus Christ to be our Redeemer. And so now all CAN have Christ dwelling within and so any who do also have the Father in them. Yes the Father is in Christ, the ONE and ONLY GOD there is and ever will be. Read,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Jesus intended to have us know these things, hear Him,

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Yes, I must agree He has done just that, it is in His Word for us!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Did Mary, the mother of Jesus, begat a son that was "the express image of his person," (Hebrews 1:3) and at the same time begat a son that was "made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death" (Hebrews 2:9)??

[o2bwise]

In this realm of existence, which we are told can aid us in our understanding of the Godhead (see Romans 1), every being who has experienced being begotten has the nature of that from whom he was begotten.

It is extremely doubtful to me that God purposed Romans 1 as a guide and yet would have His Son's inheritance not be in harmony with the above.

He was born of the Holy Ghost. In other words, Jesus Christ was born again. He came from heaven, God’s first-born, to the earth, and was born again. But all in Christ’s work goes by opposites for us: He, the sinless one, was made to be sin in order that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. He, the living One, the Prince and Author of life, died that we might live. He whose goings forth have been from the days of eternity, the first-born of God, was born again in order that we might be born again. (Christian Perfection, paragraphs 53, 54 A Sermon By A. T. Jones, Review & Herald, July 7 - August 1, 1899) (This is also found in Lessons on Faith, page 154)

I'll interject by "born of the Holy Ghost, Jones is simply referring to the miracle of conception which enabled Jesus to be "born of a woman, born under the law" (Galatians 4:4).

Now, I believe the above and want to volunteer a simple concept.

When did Jesus acquire a divine nature?

Answer:

A) When He was born of God.

When He was born of a woman.

When did Jesus acquire a human nature?

Answer:

A) When He was born of God.

When He was born of a woman.

How easy it is when one confesses Jesus to be the only begotten Son of God, thereby "making Himself equal with God!"

Blessings,

Tony

[Gerr]

Gerry:

Your John 17:3 view is similar. If I say, "Dick and Jane had lunch," you would say that it is natural (normal, the obvious thing) to conclude that Jane is Dick.

Your reasoning is nothing short of preposterous.

"Dick and Jane had lunch,"

ESV | ýJn 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Analyze the sentence construction of each and you will find that the comparison is preposterous, besides, you may have misunderstood or I failed to make it clear, nowhere have I claimed that the "only true God" and Jesus Christ in Jn 17:3 are one and SAME person! What I AM claiming is that Jesus Christ is on the SAME LEVEL as "the only true God" and identifies Jesus as such. I do agree AND claim with many commentators and scholars who say that in many passages where Scriptures says, "God and Savior Jesus Christ", "Lord and Savior Jesus Christ", "My Lord and my God", all refer to the same person because of the sentence construction.

[phkrause]

When did Jesus acquire a divine nature?

Answer:

A) When He was born of God.

When He was born of a woman.

When did Jesus acquire a human nature?

Answer:

A) When He was born of God.

When He was born of a woman.

How easy it is when one confesses Jesus to be the only begotten Son of God, thereby "making Himself equal with God!"

Blessings,

Tony

I would say for the 1st ? I would say neither.

For the second, it would be b

Better yet why not ask EGW?

[o2bwise]

Well, Gerry you lose me.

Taking John 17:3 JUST as it reads:

YOU the ONLY true God -AND- Jesus Christ

And you assert that the above string of words is self-evidently saying that the Father IS NOT the ONLY true God and Jesus Himself is also the only true God?

And something just occurred to me. I used the reasoning that when people say things like "Dick -and- Jane," it is obvious to EVERYONE that Jane is not Dick.

But, there is another facet to this.

Not only do we find an "A and B" construction, Jesus said A is THE ONLY.

You totally lose me and at an extremely foundational, basic level.

People simply do not interpret sentence constructions in the way you insist.

Never. Never, never, never!

Blessings,

Tony