The Trinity?

[John317]

Quote:

Jesus nowhere claims to be "a god."

But will you agree that the Bible also calls Jesus Christ "God"?

You see, like all trinitarians you are sneaky here. The Greek doesn't make any distinction between upper and lower case letters and it's doubtful that the Hebrew does. By writing "God" you imply that Jesus is called the one true God.

It has nothing to do with whether Greek makes a distinction between upper and lower case letters.

There is a big difference between "a god" and "God." The NWT translation of John 1: 1 and the translation of the KJV is a case in point.

Jesus is not "a god."

Or would you be satisfied with references to Jehovah as "a god"?

The Bible contains references to Christ as "the God," the same as it does regarding the Father.

[Gerr]

Hi John317,

Quote:

In your view, is Christ less God than the Father?

No. How can a literally born Son of God be less than His Father? Wouldn't God's process of begetting be perfect? Wouldn't His Son be of the same kind of essence that is His Father's?

John 5:18 NKJV

Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Blessings,

Tony

I've pointed this out before but I'll point it out again. Jesus became "Son of God" by declaration (Rom 1:4), and not by origin. He was declared Son of God at His conception, at His baptism, and at His resurrection.

[John317]

Quote:

BTW, here's another one. What did Thomas mean when he said to Christ, ESV | Jn 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

It's really simple: this is an excellent example where English (and some other languages) fail. In fact, Biblical Greek was better than English here. Here is the verbatim Greek translation. You will see that Thomas is supposed to have said "the lord of me and the God of me."

Granville Sharp's sixth rule says that where one gets a "the + noun + and the + noun" construction in Greek, two persons are indicated. Granvilles Sharp's first rule says that where one gets a "the + noun + and + noun" construction in Greek, one person is indicated. This is taken to be authoritarian.

"When kai connects two singular substantives of personal reference (nouns, adjectives, or participles, but not personal names nor plurals) of the same case and the article precedes the first substantive but not the second substantive, the second substantive always relates to the same person that is described by the first substantive" (Refresh Your Greek: Practical Helps For Reading the New Testament, Wesley J. Perschbacher, pages 1053, 1054).

Accordingly, then, Titus 2: 13 and 2 Peter 1: 1 are both referring to Christ as THE God and Savior. Christ then is both our great God and Savior.

For the same reason, 2 Peter 2: 20 refers to Jesus Christ as both Lord and Savior.

Do you agree?

Dana and Mantey's Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament (page 147):

"The article here [2 Peter 2: 20] indicates that Jesus is both Lord and Savior. So in 2 Peter 1: 1 tou theou kai sothros Ihsou Xristou means that Jesus is our God and Savior. After the same manner Titus 2: 13, tou megalou theou kai sothros Ihsou Xristou, asserts that Jesus is the great God and Savior."

[John317]

Quote:

BTW, here's another one. What did Thomas mean when he said to Christ, ESV | Jn 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

It's really simple: this is an excellent example where English (and some other languages) fail. In fact, Biblical Greek was better than English here. Here is the verbatim Greek translation. You will see that Thomas is supposed to have said "the lord of me and the God of me."

Granville Sharp's sixth rule says that where one gets a "the + noun + and the + noun" construction in Greek, two persons are indicated. Granvilles Sharp's first rule says that where one gets a "the + noun + and + noun" construction in Greek, one person is indicated. This is taken to be authoritarian.

Therefore, Thomas was invoking two "persons."...

Clearly Thomas was talking directly to one person, Jesus Christ. The verse even says that Thomas "answered Jesus" with those words. He wasn't talking to the Father.

Young's Literal Translation has, "Thomas answered and said to him [Jesus]..."

http://biblelexicon.org/john/20-28.htm

Consider the following:

Quote:

Sharp’s sixth rule says that when nouns of the same case are joined by kai [and] and each noun is preceded by the article [the], the second noun expresses a different person, thing, or quality than the first noun. Here is the exact wording:

And as the insertion of the copulative kai between nouns of the same case, without articles, (according to the fifth rule,) denotes that the second noun expresses a different person, thing, or quality, from the preceding noun, so, likewise, the same effect attends the copulative when each of the nouns are preceded by articles: . . .

As with some of Sharp’s other rules, there is an exception to the sixth rule. It is as follows:

Except distinct and different actions are intended to be attributed to one and the same person; in which case, if the sentence is not expressed agreeable to the three first rules, but appears as an exception to this sixth rule . . . the context must explain or point out plainly the person to whom the two nouns relate.

One such exception that is commonly agreed upon, and that is offered by Sharp himself, is John 20:28. In this text, Thomas says to Jesus, “Ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou.” A literal translation would be “the [ho] Lord [kurios] of me [mou] and [kai] the [ho] God [theos] of me [mou].” Even though this conforms to Sharp’s sixth rule (two nouns, Lord and God, are joined by “and,” and both are preceded by the article), Sharp rightly determined that this is an exception to the rule. The reason for this is that the context clearly indicates that Thomas was speaking to one person, Jesus, and that he was identifying Jesus as both Lord and God. Source:

http://evidentialfaith.blogspot.com/2010/03/matthew-2819-and-granville-sharps-sixth.html

[Gibs]

Very true, as it was known from the beginning He would be called Emmanuel, that is God the Father with us in Him. Yes indeed Yahweh the Father was in Him reconciling the world unto Himself.

To worship the Son is to worship the Father and in no way robbery of Yahweh the King of Israel!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

Very true, as it was known from the beginning He would be called Emmanuel, that is God the Father with us in Him. Yes indeed Yahweh the Father was in Him reconciling the world unto Himself.

To worship the Son is to worship the Father and in no way robbery of Yahweh the King of Israel!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I haven't seen your answer to this question I asked before, forgive me for asking again if you have already answered it.

If the God in Jesus was the Father Himself, who was talking to Jesus when He came out of the water and at the Mt of Transfiguration?

[Gerr]

There are only a few things we can get out of the Bible on this question that are beyond any doubt:

• The Father is God of all, even of Jesus - Jesus said so
• The Father is the only true God - Jesus said so
• The Father is greater than all - John 10:29 and John 14:28
• Even when all is said and done, Jesus will be subservient to the Father - 1 Corinthians 15:28
• The relationship between the Father and Jesus is a father-son relationship - does anyone want to count how many times that's stated in the New Testament?
• Jesus was 100% in the service of his Father. Anyone has any problems with this?
• The Holy Spirit does the bidding of both the Father and Jesus. Want any passages to substantiate that? John 14:26 and John 15:26.
• The Bible says less about the Holy Spirit than about the Father and Jesus, leaving the Holy Spirit as the least well described of the three. Speculation can't clear this up.
• Colossians 1:15 clearly says Jesus belongs to creation, but is the greatest of all creation. No prizes for the right answer as to who created Jesus - why, his Father.

The trinity dogma belongs to speculation, which is so much hot air. Can you believe it, a whole paradigm built on hot air and the hoi polloi cheer and throw their sweaty night caps into the air and subscribe to it heart and soul. It's almost funny.

Looks like you've been selectively picking cherries again! The Bible clearly teaches also the following.

Christ is God.

1. As Jehovah. Isa 40:3; Mt 3:3.

2. As Jehovah of glory. Ps 24:7,10; 1Co 2:8; Jas 2:1.

3. As Jehovah, our RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jer 23:5,6; 1Co 1:30.

4. As Jehovah, above all. Ps 97:9; Joh 3:31.

5. As Jehovah, the First and the Last. Isa 44:6; Re 1:17; Isa 48:12-16; Re 22:13.

6. As Jehovah’s Fellow and Equal. Zec 13:7; Php 2:6.

7. As Jehovah of Hosts. Isa 6:1-3; Joh 12:41; Isa 8:13,14; 1Pe 2:8.

8. As Jehovah, the Shepherd. Isa 40:11; Heb 13:20.

9. As Jehovah, for whose glory all things were created. Pr 16:4; Col 1:16.

10. As Jehovah, the Messenger of the covenant. Mal 3:1; Mr 1:2; Lu 2:27.

11. Invoked as Jehovah. Joe 2:32; Ac 2:21; 1Co 1:2.

12. As the Eternal God and Creator. Ps 102:24-27; Heb 1:8,10-12.

13. As the mighty God. Isa 9:6.

14. As the Great God and Saviour. Ho 1:7; Tit 2:13.

15. As God over all. Ps 45:6,7; Ro 9:5.

16. As the true God. Jer 10:10; 1Jo 5:20.

17. As God the Word. Joh 1:1.

18. As God, the judge. Ec 12:14; 1Co 4:5; 2Co 5:10; 2Ti 4:1.

19. As Emmanuel. Isa 7:14; Mt 1:23.

20. As King of kings and Lord of lords. Da 10:17; Re 1:5; 17:14.

21. As the Holy One. 1Sa 2:2; Ac 3:14.

22. As the Lord from heaven. 1Co 15:47.

23. As Lord of the Sabbath. Ge 2:3; Mt 12:8.

24. As Lord of all. Ac 10:36; Ro 10:11-13.

25. As Son of God. Mt 26:63-67.

26. As the Only-begotten Son of the Father. Joh 1:14,18; 3:16,18; 1Jo 4:9.

27. His blood is called the blood of God. Ac 20:28.

28. As one with the Father. Joh 10:30,38; 12:45; 14:7-10; 17:10.

29. As sending the Spirit, equally with the Father. Joh 14:16; 15:26.

30. As entitled to equal honour with the Father. Joh 5:23.

31. As Owner of all things, equally with the Father. Joh 16:15.

32. As unrestricted by the law of the sabbath, equally with the Father. Joh 5:17.

33. As the Source of grace, equally with the Father. 1Th 3:11; 2Th 2:16,17.

34. As unsearchable, equally with the Father. Pr 30:4; Mt 11:27.

35. As Creator of all things. Isa 40:28; Joh 1:3; Col 1:16; Heb 1:2.

36. As Supporter and Preserver of all things. Ne 9:6; Col 1:17; Heb 1:3.

37. As possessed of the fulness of the God head. Col 2:9; Heb 1:3.

38. As raising the dead. Joh 5:21; 6:40,54.

39. As raising himself from the dead. Joh 2:19,21; 10:18.

40. As Eternal. Isa 9:6; Mic 5:2; Joh 1:1; Col 1:17; Heb 1:8-10; Re 1:8.

41. As Omnipresent. Mt 18:20; 28:20; Joh 3:13.

42. As Omnipotent. Ps 45:3; Php 3:21; Re 1:8.

43. As Omniscient. Joh 16:30; 21:17.

44. As discerning the thoughts of the heart. 1Ki 8:39; Lu 5:22; Eze 11:5; Joh 2:24,25; Re 2:23.

45. As unchangeable. Mal 3:6; Heb 1:12; 13:8.

46. As having power to forgive sins. Col 3:13; Mr 2:7,10.

47. As Giver of pastors to the Church. Jer 3:15; Eph 4:11-13.

48. As Husband of the Church. Isa 54:5; Eph 5:25-32; Isa 62:5; Re 21:2,9.

49. As the object of divine worship. Ac 7:59; 2Co 12:8,9; Heb 1:6; Re 5:12.

50. As the object of faith. Ps 2:12; 1Pe 2:6; Jer 17:5,7; Joh 14:1.

51. As God, he redeems and purifies the Church to himself. Re 5:9; Tit 2:14.

52. As God, he presents the Church to himself. Eph 5:27; Jude 1:24,25.

53. Saints live to him as God. Ro 6:11; Ga 2:19; 2Co 5:15.

54. Acknowledged by his Apostles. Joh 20:28.

55. Acknowledged by the Old Testament saints. Ge 17:1; 48:15,16; 32:24-30; Ho 12:3-5; Jdj 6:22-24; 13:21,22; Job 19:25-27.

Torrey, R. (2001). The new topical text book: A scriptural text book for the use of ministers, teachers, and all Christian workers. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Bible Software.

[Gibs]

Gerry, You asked,

"I haven't seen your answer to this question I asked before, forgive me for asking again if you have already answered it.

If the God in Jesus was the Father Himself, who was talking to Jesus when He came out of the water and at the Mt of Transfiguration?"

The answer is simple, The Father in Heaven was addressing of His Son the Man Jesus.

Mt 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

The Father had in the beginning extended of Himself His Redeemer and would be the ladder of Himself from Heaven to earth and at the same time the Fathers fullness in Him.

You need to understand this, Jesus proclaimed, "I am the first!" OK, He wasn't lying.

But we know that there was a time the Father possessed or procured, extended Him forth.

Now there is an answer, ONE AND ONE only. It makes it that they truly are 1,one.

One Substance, even though later in time than the Father, Redeemer of the Father is the same age of substance. Yes His claim of "first" is valid and true!

Remember He told Philip, "you've seen me, you've seen the Father.

Then Jesus Himself tells us "I and my Father are one!" Joh 10:30. But now read the two verses before 30 and the context solidifies he is meaning numerically 1, One, standing alone, just 1, one.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

Christ is God.

1. As Jehovah. Isa 40:3; Mt 3:3.

2. As Jehovah of glory. Ps 24:7,10; 1Co 2:8; Jas 2:1.

3. As Jehovah, our RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jer 23:5,6; 1Co 1:30.

4. As Jehovah, above all. Ps 97:9; Joh 3:31.

5. As Jehovah, the First and the Last. Isa 44:6; Re 1:17; Isa 48:12-16; Re 22:13.

6. As Jehovah’s Fellow and Equal. Zec 13:7; Php 2:6.

7. As Jehovah of Hosts. Isa 6:1-3; Joh 12:41; Isa 8:13,14; 1Pe 2:8.

8. As Jehovah, the Shepherd. Isa 40:11; Heb 13:20.

9. As Jehovah, for whose glory all things were created. Pr 16:4; Col 1:16.

10. As Jehovah, the Messenger of the covenant. Mal 3:1; Mr 1:2; Lu 2:27.

11. Invoked as Jehovah. Joe 2:32; Ac 2:21; 1Co 1:2.

12. As the Eternal God and Creator. Ps 102:24-27; Heb 1:8,10-12.

13. As the mighty God. Isa 9:6.

14. As the Great God and Saviour. Ho 1:7; Tit 2:13.

15. As God over all. Ps 45:6,7; Ro 9:5.

16. As the true God. Jer 10:10; 1Jo 5:20.

17. As God the Word. Joh 1:1.

18. As God, the judge. Ec 12:14; 1Co 4:5; 2Co 5:10; 2Ti 4:1.

19. As Emmanuel. Isa 7:14; Mt 1:23.

20. As King of kings and Lord of lords. Da 10:17; Re 1:5; 17:14.

21. As the Holy One. 1Sa 2:2; Ac 3:14.

22. As the Lord from heaven. 1Co 15:47.

23. As Lord of the Sabbath. Ge 2:3; Mt 12:8.

24. As Lord of all. Ac 10:36; Ro 10:11-13.

25. As Son of God. Mt 26:63-67.

26. As the Only-begotten Son of the Father. Joh 1:14,18; 3:16,18; 1Jo 4:9.

27. His blood is called the blood of God. Ac 20:28.

28. As one with the Father. Joh 10:30,38; 12:45; 14:7-10; 17:10.

29. As sending the Spirit, equally with the Father. Joh 14:16; 15:26.

30. As entitled to equal honour with the Father. Joh 5:23.

31. As Owner of all things, equally with the Father. Joh 16:15.

32. As unrestricted by the law of the sabbath, equally with the Father. Joh 5:17.

33. As the Source of grace, equally with the Father. 1Th 3:11; 2Th 2:16,17.

34. As unsearchable, equally with the Father. Pr 30:4; Mt 11:27.

35. As Creator of all things. Isa 40:28; Joh 1:3; Col 1:16; Heb 1:2.

36. As Supporter and Preserver of all things. Ne 9:6; Col 1:17; Heb 1:3.

37. As possessed of the fulness of the God head. Col 2:9; Heb 1:3.

38. As raising the dead. Joh 5:21; 6:40,54.

39. As raising himself from the dead. Joh 2:19,21; 10:18.

40. As Eternal. Isa 9:6; Mic 5:2; Joh 1:1; Col 1:17; Heb 1:8-10; Re 1:8.

41. As Omnipresent. Mt 18:20; 28:20; Joh 3:13.

42. As Omnipotent. Ps 45:3; Php 3:21; Re 1:8.

43. As Omniscient. Joh 16:30; 21:17.

44. As discerning the thoughts of the heart. 1Ki 8:39; Lu 5:22; Eze 11:5; Joh 2:24,25; Re 2:23.

45. As unchangeable. Mal 3:6; Heb 1:12; 13:8.

46. As having power to forgive sins. Col 3:13; Mr 2:7,10.

47. As Giver of pastors to the Church. Jer 3:15; Eph 4:11-13.

48. As Husband of the Church. Isa 54:5; Eph 5:25-32; Isa 62:5; Re 21:2,9.

49. As the object of divine worship. Ac 7:59; 2Co 12:8,9; Heb 1:6; Re 5:12.

50. As the object of faith. Ps 2:12; 1Pe 2:6; Jer 17:5,7; Joh 14:1.

51. As God, he redeems and purifies the Church to himself. Re 5:9; Tit 2:14.

52. As God, he presents the Church to himself. Eph 5:27; Jude 1:24,25.

53. Saints live to him as God. Ro 6:11; Ga 2:19; 2Co 5:15.

54. Acknowledged by his Apostles. Joh 20:28.

55. Acknowledged by the Old Testament saints. Ge 17:1; 48:15,16; 32:24-30; Ho 12:3-5; Jdj 6:22-24; 13:21,22; Job 19:25-27.

Torrey, R. (2001). The new topical text book: A scriptural text book for the use of ministers, teachers, and all Christian workers. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Bible Software.

I would really like to see a reasoned response from anti- or non-Trinitarians to each one of those points.

[John317]

You need to understand this, Jesus proclaimed, "I am the first!" OK, He wasn't lying.

Jehovah is not lying, either, and He also says, "I am the first." See Isaiah 41: 4

[John317]

Gerry, You asked,

...If the God in Jesus was the Father Himself, who was talking to Jesus when He came out of the water and at the Mt of Transfiguration?"

The answer is simple, The Father in Heaven was addressing of His Son the Man Jesus.

Mt 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Notice that the Father commanded that we hear Jesus Christ. The Father did not say "Hear me."

The point is that Christ Himself is God in His own right. This is made plain in Col 2: 9 and Hebrews 1: 3. Col 2: 9 is not saying that Christ is God because the Father dwells in Him. When it says that "the whole fullness of Deity lives in Christ's body," it isn't saying that the Father lives in Christ's body. The Deity that lives in Christ's body is His own Deity.

Look closely at Matt 3: 16-17:

According to it, the voice came out of heaven from the Father, who said that He was well pleased with His beloved Son.

The Holy Spirit descended like a dove and alighted on Jesus.

Jesus Christ, the eternal, self-existent Son of God, was coming up out of the water.

Those are clearly three distinct, divine Persons.

It wasn't the Father that was seen descending like a dove on to Jesus. It was the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit that led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. Matt 4: 1.

He's the same Holy Spirit that performs distinct acts of a person:

He searches, speaks, testifies, commands, reveals, strives, creates, makes intercession, raises the dead, etc., and He can be "grieved." So the Holy Spirit has feelings and affections. (Gen 1: 2; 6: 3; Luke 12: 12; John 14: 26; 15: 26; 16: 8; Acts 8: 29; 13: 2; Rom 8: 11; 1 Cor 2: 10-12; Eph 4: 30.)

Only a definite, divine person can do all of these things; it cannot be a mere power or influence.

[John317]

Quote:

Maybe try this one:

ESV | 2 Pe 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Here is both verse one and two from the KJV:

Quote:

2 Peter 1:

1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

You will see the KJV gives it a different spin - two persons. ...

Virtually all modern translations read, "our God and Savior Jesus Christ."

The Greek construction of 2 Peter 1: 1 is different from the construction in verse 2. In the first verse, the construction shows that Christ is both God and Savior.

In the second verse, the construction shows that the writer refers to the Father as God and to Christ as Lord.

The Father is also "Lord."

Both the Father and Christ have many names and titles. It is not contradictory to refer to Christ as God and to the Father as God.

They are both "God."

Please review the following information:

Quote:

"When kai connects two singular substantives of personal reference (nouns, adjectives, or participles, but not personal names nor plurals) of the same case and the article precedes the first substantive but not the second substantive, the second substantive always relates to the same person that is described by the first substantive" (Refresh Your Greek: Practical Helps For Reading the New Testament, Wesley J. Perschbacher, pages 1053, 1054).

Accordingly, then, Titus 2: 13 and 2 Peter 1: 1 are both referring to Christ as THE God and Savior. Christ then is both our great God and Savior.

For the same reason, 2 Peter 2: 20 refers to Jesus Christ as both Lord and Savior.

Do you agree?

Dana and Mantey's Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament (page 147):

"The article here [2 Peter 2: 20] indicates that Jesus is both Lord and Savior. So in 2 Peter 1: 1 tou theou kai sothros Ihsou Xristou means that Jesus is our God and Savior. After the same manner Titus 2: 13, tou megalou theou kai sothros Ihsou Xristou, asserts that Jesus is the great God and Savior."

[John317]

The Father had in the beginning extended of Himself His Redeemer and would be the ladder of Himself from Heaven to earth and at the same time the Fathers fullness in Him.

...But we know that there was a time the Father possessed or procured, extended Him forth.

None of the references in Prov. 8 signify that the pre-incarnate Christ had a beginning.

Nor does the Bible teach that the Father "extended Christ forth."

"Possessed" in Prov 8: 22 is a translation of a Hebrew word which literally means to "create." However, despite the beliefs and translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses, we know that Christ was not "created."

"Possessed" refers to Christ's being "brought forth" or "possessed" for a special mission of blessing to the world.

If we understand the verse to be saying that "wisdom" was literally created, it would mean that there was a time when God did not have wisdom.

Ellen White explicitly tells us that Christ was the "eternal, self-existent Son of God" and that He had always stood at the right hand of the Father. PP 38

"Self-existent" means that Christ's existence did not derive from, or depend on, the existence of anyone or anything else.

[Gerr]

But, since you claim that Jesus is the Father Himself dwelling in human flesh, so how could He be talking to Himself in the person of Jesus? It makes no sense!

No, the Lamb and God the Father sit on the same throne through out eternity. Jesus will not disappear because His mission will have been accomplished. See Rev 22:3.

[Gordon1]

Jesus is worshiped in a manner similar to a Prince being worshiped.

Exactly Tony.

"That all men should honour the Son,

even as they honour the Father.

He that honoureth not the Son

honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." (John 5:23)

[Gordon1]

He quite literally is a Son of the Divine (read: God the Father, The Ancient of Days) Line.

It's not hard to understand, it just takes being able to understand what the son of a father is and extrapolate that to divine perfection.

Exactly Tony.

God speaks plainly, for the working man. I sent my Son.

He had a Son to send. God is not the author of confusion.

"Those who derided His claim to be the Son of God are speechless now." Great Controversy 643.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: o2bwise

Jesus is worshiped in a manner similar to a Prince being worshiped.

Exactly Tony.

"That all men should honour the Son,

even as they honour the Father.

He that honoureth not the Son

honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." (John 5:23)

Honor the Son, how? "...even AS they honor the Father!!!!" No more, no less!!! If Christ is not God, He doesn't deserve EQUAL honor as the Father.

Thank you.

[Gordon1]

It's not for man to declare what Jesus deserves.

[Gordon1]

Man deserves the lake of fire, nothing more.

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

The Father had in the beginning extended of Himself His Redeemer and would be the ladder of Himself from Heaven to earth and at the same time the Fathers fullness in Him.

...But we know that there was a time the Father possessed or procured, extended Him forth.

None of the references in Prov. 8 signify that the pre-incarnate Christ had a beginning.

Nor does the Bible teach that the Father "extended Christ forth."

"Possessed" in Prov 8: 22 is a translation of a Hebrew word which literally means to "create." However, despite the beliefs and translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses, we know that Christ was not "created."

"Possessed" refers to Christ's being "brought forth" or "possessed" for a special mission of blessing to the world.

If we understand the verse to be saying that "wisdom" was literally created, it would mean that there was a time when God did not have wisdom.

Ellen White explicitly tells us that Christ was the "eternal, self-existent Son of God" and that He had always stood at the right hand of the Father. PP 38

"Self-existent" means that Christ's existence did not derive from, or depend on, the existence of anyone or anything else.

If Christ did not derive his life from his Father why did He say the following?

"For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself" John 5:26

[o2bwise]

Hi John317,

Quote:

I would really like to see a reasoned response from anti- or non-Trinitarians to each one of those points.

55 points.

I think the list is deceiving (not saying it is intended to be). Declarations are made and then Scripture referenced. 55 points out of the the entirety of Scripture (and without having examined the Scripture) pales in comparison to what I posed, in my opinion.

Now, what I did was give a handful of example texts that taken as they read indicate with ease that the vast majority of the time, the Bible with near 100% consensus, refers to the Father only as God and oftentimes in the very thought referring to Jesus as someone OTHER than He who had just been referred to as God.

I didn't see anyone respond to that post, which I think is much more fair an examination. I didn't provide any interpretation. I just provided example Scripture and proposed what any rational person would acquiesce is the most apparent meaning.

Have you responded to that John317?

Blessings on this special Sabbath day...

Tony

[o2bwise]

Man deserves the lake of fire, nothing more.

The lake of fire is an unveiled exposure to the holiness of God. Many waters cannot put out love.

It's a digression, but I am uncertain what man "deserves" anymore.

If I were to take a stab at it, man deserves the absolute most God can do to recover him. Because God is just and that is just what He is doing and I cannot see that His doing so compromises His justice.

Blessings.

Tony

[o2bwise]

e,

Quote:

It's really "you're." I must be doing something right that all the inerudite find me so intolerable.

Obviously, you are highly intelligent. And so with that, at a high level, dialogue can be divided into two facets. One, its rational merit. Two, its tone, whether loving and civil or abrasive and smart alecky, etc.

Because you are obviously so intelligent, I have a suggestion for you. Since I am sure you demonstrated an inability to discern the reason people hold this opinion on your writings (read: it ain't the rational merit facet, not even close)...

Maybe ask for love.

[o2bwise]

Last night it occurred to me why Jesus is almost never referred to as God.

I think God is trying to tell us something,

He wants His Son to be referred to as His Son. It's not that Jesus isn't God (in the same way that I, a descendant of man, am a man, He wants us to understand that confessing His Son to be His Son with a right understanding of what this means (inheriting divinity, being God) is His heart's desire.

Tony

[Gordon1]

If I were to take a stab at it, man deserves the absolute most God can do to recover him. Because God is just and that is just what He is doing and I cannot see that His doing so compromises His justice.

Hi Tony, yes God is doing the absolute most. Sending His Son.

(While we were yet sinners Christ died for us.)

Do we deserve (merit) that?

In justice alone we should die. (wages/reward of sin)

But mingled with mercy,

He sent His Son, that all that believeth in Him should not perish

but have everlasting life.

God's doing is justice & mercy combined.

We deserve (merit) life only through Christ (Christ in you, the hope of glory);

outside of Christ is the second death (unveiled exposure to a Consuming Fire).

(If we did not deserve death (our post-Adam condition), we would not need a Substitute.)

Agreed?