The Trinity?

[John317]

...Opposing the Trinity on the grounds Rome claims origination of it, is a red herring - just as much as it would be had Arianism been successful in becoming the dominant Christological argument in the 300's AD rather than the Trinity.

X10

It just happened that the Catholic Church adopted a view of the Trinity that contains a lot of truth-- although it also contains a good deal of error. We have to suppose that it could have adopted a different, completely false view, since it did adopt many other false doctrines.

I believe God led our Pioneers to reject the popular Catholic and Protestant views of the Trinity, because if they had adopted those views during the early years of our development, the SDA Church likely would not have studied its way into accepting the Trinity as the Bible teaches it. Once accepted, they would have been difficult to leave.

Ellen White herself fought against the false views of the Trinity, not against the biblical view. (She was different in that way from James White, who attacked the Trinity doctrine per se. She never did this. In fact, she made many statements that could never have been said by an anti-Trinitarian.)

The Catholic and Protestant views were influenced more by Greek philosophy than by the Bible.

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

...Opposing the Trinity on the grounds Rome claims origination of it, is a red herring - just as much as it would be had Arianism been successful in becoming the dominant Christological argument in the 300's AD rather than the Trinity.

X10

It just happened that the Catholic Church adopted a view of the Trinity that contains a lot of truth-- although it also contains a good deal of error. It could have adopted a different view.

I believe God led our Pioneers to reject the popular Catholic and Protestant views of the Trinity, because if they had adopted those views, the SDA Church likely would not have studied its way into accepting the Trinity as the Bible teaches it.

Ellen White fought against the false views of the Trinity, not against the biblical view.

The Catholic and Protestant views were influenced more by Greek philosophy than by the Bible.

The irony I find on this thread is that the non-Trinitarian arguments promoted are based on that same Greco-Roman philosophy of what "being", "begotten", and "individual" mean.

Blessings,

[John317]

One is not 2 or three Deities as far as that goes. The solid truth is, the Father, the Holy Spirit and the Son are the one, 1 Deity.

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If that is not Trinitarian, I don't know what is. You mention three different beings, but by some logic that is beyond my understanding you are just insisting they are one and the same person! This is modalism as I pointed out early on in this thread.

So true!

[John317]

And here is another,

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

And here is another,

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Now you should understand who your Saviour is!

Don't you see the Redeemer is the extension of the Father, the Father was in Christ and 2 Cor 5:19 makes that clear.

Gibs, those verses in Isaiah show that both the Father and the Son are one God, one Lord, and one Savior.

There are not many Gods, many Lords, or many Saviors. There is only one God, one Lord, and one Savior. Also one Spirit. See Eph 4: 3-6.

Who is this one God, one Lord, one Savior, one Spirit?

Yahweh. Yahweh is comprised of three divine Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

[Gerr]

Gerry, It looks to me like as some have you programmed to believe the Holy Spirit is another God or person. No not true, the following statement from Jesus Himself shoots that down,

Programmed? You mean brainwashed? Friend, I study the Scriptures for myself. I have no agenda but the truth!

All three persons of the Godhead are Spirit! If the 3rd person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit, is not a person, what is He?

[Gibs]

In the first place there is no third person of the Godhead. The Holy Spirit is what our God is. That same Spirit came in fullness in Jesus Christ at Bethlem, the Father.

And notice Who is above all, through all and He is in you all

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

There is but 1, One God, and 1, One never was three and never can or will be.

Yahweh just repesents himself as Spirit, as that is what He is and in Jesus Christ of whom He came covered with His Humanity that we could dwell in His Presense.

Enoch saw the Father face to face and Moses come close to seeing Yah's Redeemer befor Bethlehem and had not come in Christ yet and his face shown so bright the people were afraid of him.

Redeemer is the same and are of the one substance of the Father.

This is how Jesus could righty proclaim, "I am the first". No He wasn't before the Father, it just is that he is the Father Extended. The one and only way Jesus is also the first is because He didn't lie when He stated, "I and my Father are ONE!"

No I am with full certainity there is no trinity of persons of God. Then the scipture would have to be changed when it states,

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

All should be seeing and knowing by now, our Redeemer is Yahweh in a union with the man Jesus Christ which is a mystery to our finite minds. It is not robbery for us to worship Jesus Christ as to do so is to worship the Father. We are to come to His throne of grace by way of His mediator, through Jesus Christ.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gail]

I'm kinda having problem with Gib's take on it, too, because I see each of the 3 deferring to the others all through the Bible.

Just some examples-

The Father gives all things into the hand of Christ (John 13:3; 3:35). Yet Christ lived to show the Father to the world.

The Spirit shows us righteousness, because Christ went back to the Father. John 16:10

The Spirit also teaches us and brings to our remembrance all things that Christ said. And since Jesus glorified His Father, so does the Spirit.

In Isaiah 11:2, the Spirit rests upon Jesus (the rod out of the stem of Jesse), and as a result He has, "the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord," all attributes of the Father.

I would have a hard time separating them, yet they all work together in varying ways.

How can anyone truly understand God?

[Gibs]

But Gail what did Jesus tell you that God is.

What does 2 Cor 5:19 tell you

What does Eph 4:6 tell you

What does Joh 10:30 tell you after you get that verse in context by reading verses 28,29 before 30?

We must understand that Yahweh the Father in Jesus Christ is our Redeemer, do many trinitarians see it? I doubt.

Emmanuel, is God with us. Only Yahweh is God, there is no other, and no other spoken of in scripture!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

I think that was borne out dozens of pages ago, by several of us....

Modalism was declared unBiblical before the Arian position was...

Yes, modalism is close to Hinduism - many expressions of one god. But you still have the three problem. Three are not one and one is not three. With the composite entity you have four.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Yahweh. Yahweh is comprised of three divine Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Ah, so we have four - the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and Yahweh. Keep on like this and soon you'll be giving the Hindus a run for their money.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Gibs, those verses in Isaiah show that both the Father and the Son are one God, one Lord, and one Savior.

They don't even come close to doing that. I can read. Trinitarians declare something to mean something, always is favour of the trinity concept, irrespective of what it really states. If someone says, "it looks like rain," that will mean Jesus and the Holy Spirit are gods with the Father.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

The irony I find on this thread is that the non-Trinitarian arguments promoted are based on that same Greco-Roman philosophy of what "being", "begotten", and "individual" mean.

Where does that come from? I didn't know the Romans had a philosophy about those words.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

The statement that Yahweh alone is God-- or that there is only one God-- means that Yahweh is the only living God in all the universe.

There is only a single, solitary Deity.

But your single, solitary Deity is composed of three entities - the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. If Yahweh now alone is God, then Yahweh's individual parts are not God in their own right. Otherwise you'll end up with four gods, of which one will be a super god.

This is the way it is. The trinity is impossible. It can only exist in fields like theology, psychology or philosophy. It would have been still-born in any true scientific field.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

In Isaiah 11:2, the Spirit rests upon Jesus (the rod out of the stem of Jesse), and as a result He has, "the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord," all attributes of the Father.

Who is this Lord who is feared? Is it Jesus, or the Father? That would mean the Father (according to you this spirit of fear is an attribute of the Father) is either afraid of himself or Jesus. If one has a spirit of fear of himself it would mean psychopathology. I've heard of weird phobias, but this is new to me.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

The Bible uses "firstborn" in a literal sense and also metaphorically. Jesus cannot be the creator of everything and be the first created being.

And why not? If Jesus had a hand in everything created after himself, then one can say he is the creator (or co-creator) of everything. No sane person will think he created himself and will understand that Jesus himself is not included in the everything he helped create or created.

[epaminondas]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

John317, it is really straight out that there is 1,One God and Father of all.

One is not 2 or three Deities as far as that goes. The solid truth is, the Father, the Holy Spirit and the Son are the one, 1 Deity.

I agree with those statements.

There is only 1 Deity, One God and Father of all.

And the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the one, 1 Deity.

There are not 2 or three Deities. Definitely NOT.

That means the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not deities individually. Only the composite entity is.

You see where the trinity takes you?

[epaminondas]

Quote:

The union of The Deity and a man child the seed of David made there in the womb of Mary Sister White tells us is beyond finite minds and I have to agree.

No, it's not. It's a walk in the park for the creator of the genetic code. It's only programming. Mary had all the letters of the genetic code - there are only four. Now just combine them into three letter codons to get the end result one wants. One needs only about twenty left handed amino acids. Then combine them to make proteins. It's a piece of cake.

That's the theory. Doing it in practice is another thing.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Let's look closely at what "only begotten" means:

"Only begotten" is a translation of the Greek noun, monogenes.

Monos= alone, only, sole, solitary. (Monos is used in John 17: 3, "ONLY true God.")

Genos=kind, sort, species, family, race. (Genos is used in Matt 13: 47, "...some of every KIND.)

The English word "gene" derives from this Greek word.

"Monogenes" signifies "unique" or "one of a kind."

"Begotten," then, is NOT derived from gennao, to "beget," "generate," "give birth to."

So the word monogenes does not refer to God the Father generating Jesus as His literal, semidivine Son. Instead it indicates Jesus' uniqueness as the incarnate Son-- the God/man who has "come to be" an in-fleshed human while retaining His fully divine nature as one "equal with God" the Father (John 5: 18). I think you'll agree with me that there could never be any manifestation in the history of the universe more "unique" than the Creator-God becoming "flesh" (John 1: 14).

I've found out much the same thing. Apparently there is a movement away from using the word "begotten."

Monogenes is not only used to refer to Jesus. The word "begotten" is also often not used when it refers to other people, like in Luke 7:12, 8:42, and 9:38 where many translations don't have it. Some translations also don't have it in Heb 11:17 where it talks of Isaac as the only son of Abraham. We know Abraham had another son, Ishmael.

In John 1:18 it is used of God - only begotten God. That's in the Greek. This is such a problem that most translations make it point to Jesus.

If begotten falls away, trinitarians will lose one of the prime weapons in their armory.

[Gerr]

If begotten falls away, trinitarians will lose one of the prime weapons in their armory.

KJV 1900 | ýAc 26:14 it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

[Gibs]

Trinitarians also erroneously say He, Jesus was a son before Bethlehem and then another at Bethlehem. Which is it, or did Yah have two sons, and who was the son of before Bethlehem besides Himself?

Where is the record there was a son before Bethlehem? A son is a Born person and there was no born, created or any formed before Bethlehem.

Yahweh Our Father did of Himself extend and send out His Redeemer. He being Yahweh of Hosts, Isaiah 44:6

Then at Bethlehem and not until then was Yahweh of Hosts put in the Babe born of Mary and then Jesus when born was Yahweh Messiah.

This investment of Our Father's Deity will finally be returned when all is accomplished Jesus is sent to do. Read 1 Cor 24-28.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

Quote:

Yahweh. Yahweh is comprised of three divine Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Ah, so we have four - the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and Yahweh. Keep on like this and soon you'll be giving the Hindus a run for their money.

No, "Yahweh" is the name of the living God. Who is the living God? The living God is the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The living God who created the universe is not just a single, sole Person. The self-existent One we call the Father was never all alone-- He has always loved (and been loved by) the Son and the Holy Spirit.

[John317]

Trinitarians also erroneously say He, Jesus was a son before Bethlehem and then another at Bethlehem. Which is it, or did Yah have two sons, and who was the son of before Bethlehem besides Himself?

Don't you believe that Christ is "the eternal, self-existent Son of God"?

When he was born on this earth, He became the Son of God in a new sense. Before then, He was not literally the Son. But after His conception and birth, He became the Son of God in a new sense, because then the Father in heaven became Christ's literal daddy.

[John317]

There is only 1 Deity, One God and Father of all.

And the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the one, 1 Deity.

There are not 2 or three Deities. Definitely NOT.

Originally Posted By: Epaminondas

That means the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not deities individually. Only the composite entity is.

You see where the trinity takes you?

You failed to understand what I wrote.

Col 2: 9 says that "the ALL the fullness of Deity [the Godhead] lives continuously in Christ's body."

The Father is not part-Deity or 1/3 Godhead. Neither is Christ or the Holy Spirit. Each one is "all the fullness of the Godhead."

Ellen White says the same thing in Evangelism 616-617.

[joeb]

Don't you believe that Christ is "the eternal, self-existent Son of God"?

When he was born on this earth, He became the Son of God in a new sense. Before then, He was not literally the Son. But after His conception and birth, He became the Son of God in a new sense, because then the Father in heaven became Christ's literal daddy.

Gibs can't actually say he believes in most basic SDA theology of all. He cannot fit his theology into the theme of the Great Controversy for in his theology Christ cannot be our Creator and hated by the devil because of that fact.

[Gibs]

Joeb, you have not read my posts well at all. Actually your comments about me don't make sense.

Yes for sure ALL the visible creation was put in His hands I've stated many times and He is the creator of ALL the Hosts, hense his name before Bethlehem, Yahweh of Hosts, Isa 44:6.

Again you ALL, there is but one God and one person who is God, His name is Yahweh King of Israel.

Jesus always addressed Him as His God. The Holy Spirit is not another person but is the very Person of Yahweh King of Israel.

Read this straight out forthright statement by the very one who would know!

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Neither was another God formed in Jesus Christ, read,

Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

It was Yahweh Himself who came in Him and so Jesus was vested with the fullness of the Father!

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

No other Gods formed, born or created, Read,

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Jesus Christ is the Father with us, for sure, for sure!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.