The Trinity?

[Gerr]

This attitude of clinging tenaciously to the beliefs of the pioneers unchanged is precisely the reason why all the Reformation churches are frozen in time. No more new truths! Here are some things EGW had to say:

Maintaining Truth Not to Preclude New Light.-- It is a fact that we have the truth, and we must hold with tenacity to the positions that cannot be shaken; but we must not look with suspicion upon any new light which God may send, and say, Really, we cannot see that we need any more light than the old truth which we have hitherto received, and in which we are settled. While we hold to this position, the testimony of the True Witness applies to our cases its rebuke, "And knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." Those who feel rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing, are in a condition of blindness as to their true condition before God, and they know it not.--Review and Herald, August 7, 1894. {CW 33.1}

Led of God, but Not Infallible.--We must not think, "Well, we have all the truth, we understand the main pillars of our faith, and we may rest on this knowledge." The truth is an advancing truth, and we must walk in the increasing light. {CW 33.2}

We must have living faith in our hearts and reach out for larger knowledge and more advanced light.--Review and Herald, March 25, 1890. {CW 34.1}

[ClubV12]

George Knight says,

"IF,,,if they had to subscribe to the denomination's Fundamental Beliefs."

Like I said, don't insult the intelligence of the pioneers who preached, lived and understood the need for spiritual growth and greater understanding of fundamental beliefs. They would be more than happy, they would see it as their duty to join with todays Church.

Unlike so many cowards who have proclaimed the Church is in apostasy and removed their membership or worse, created their own offshoot Church.

[Gerr]

The fundamental principles you mention are, I believe, distinct from "...the pillars of our faith are,--the truths that have made us as a people what we are, leading us on step by step."-- Review and Herald, May 25, 1905. {CW 29.1}

She also calls them the "old landmarks."

The Landmarks Defined.--In Minneapolis God gave precious gems of truth to His people in new settings. This light from heaven by some was rejected with all the stubbornness the Jews manifested in rejecting Christ, and there was much talk about standing by the old landmarks. But there was evidence they knew not what the old landmarks were. There was evidence and there was reasoning from the word that commended itself to the conscience; but the minds of men were fixed, sealed against the entrance of light, because they had decided it was a dangerous error removing the "old landmarks" when it was not moving a peg of the old landmarks, but they had perverted ideas of what constituted the old landmarks. {CW 30.1}

The passing of the time in 1844 was a period of great events, opening to our astonished eyes the cleansing of the sanctuary transpiring in heaven, and having decided relation to God's people upon the earth, [also] the first and second angels' messages and the third, unfurling the banner on which was inscribed, "The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." One of the landmarks under this message was the temple of God, seen by His truth-loving people in heaven, and the ark containing the law of God. The light of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment flashed its strong rays in the pathway of the transgressors of God's law. The nonimmortality of the wicked is an old landmark. I can call to mind

31

nothing more that can come under the head of the old landmarks. All this cry about changing the old landmarks is all imaginary. {CW 30.2}

Neither Arian nor the Trinitarian doctrine of God is among the distinctive doctrines or landmarks of the SDA Church.

[Gerr]

George Knight says,

"IF,,,if they had to subscribe to the denomination's Fundamental Beliefs."

Like I said, don't insult the intelligence of the pioneers who preached, lived and understood the need for spiritual growth and greater understanding of fundamental beliefs. They would be more than happy, they would see it as their duty to join with todays Church.

Unlike so many cowards who have proclaimed the Church is in apostasy and removed their membership or worse, created their own offshoot Church.

I agree. Our pioneers were truth seekers. I cannot imagine them joining any other church today than the SDAC. Any new doctrines they would not have known would be studied vigorously. I don't think they would take the position that there were to be no more truths to be learned after them. Truth is always an advancing light, but it never contradicts truths that have already been well-established.

[Gordon1]

This attitude of clinging tenaciously to the beliefs of the pioneers unchanged is precisely the reason why all the Reformation churches are frozen in time. No more new truths!

Yes Gerry - you are correct, we must be open to new light.

But if we step away from the old light - the foundations which were built upon for fifty years, we will not be granted new light.

You will note there has been no advancement of prophecy or morals since EGW's day - rather a return to worldly ways, and adoption of Rome's central tenet of faith, the Trinity. It's not a progressive movement which edges closer to Rome.

All leading pioneers and writers within the movement were anti-trinitarian, even though some had left Trinity churches.

What did these leading pioneers have in common?

• Joseph Bates (1792-1872)

• James White (1821-1881)

• Joseph H. Waggoner (1820-1889)

• John N. Andrews (1829-1883)

• J.N. Loughborough (1832-1924)

• Uriah Smith (1832-1903)

• S.N. Haskell (1833-1922)

• Alonzo T. Jones (1850-1923)

• E.J. Waggoner (1855-1916)

...They were all non-trinitarian.

http://theprophetstillspeaks.co.uk/

[ClubV12]

The key here is that Ellen White never ventured onto this sacred ground of trying to understand and explain the mystery of a triune God in the early days. She did present enough light, as early as 1846 on the subject. But it took some time for the understanding to take root.

A young man about to enter the Ministry, had sharp disagreements with his brethren over the question of the Holy Spirit. He sought her counsel on the matter. She never answered his questions concerning the nature of the Holy Spirit, she never addressed it at all. She told him to go home and find harmony with his brethren.

Solid advice that still rings true today!

This reminds me of how backward and dim the Children of the Covenant were when they came out of Egypt. It took some time for them to understand the requirements in all aspects of the laws of God. Moses had to detail every little thing because they were unable to grasp the principles of the ten commandments.

I see this Adventist movement in the same light, a people called out, dim in view, lacking in understanding. NOT because the prophet was dim in view, but because the people need time to grow and accept. Over a period of decades Ellen White detailed more and more the requirements, meaning and beauty of the laws of God.

Today, I still prefer the term "triune" over "trinity".

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

This attitude of clinging tenaciously to the beliefs of the pioneers unchanged is precisely the reason why all the Reformation churches are frozen in time. No more new truths!

Yes Gerry - you are correct, we must be open to new light.

But if we step away from the old light - the foundations which were built upon for fifty years, we will not be granted new light.

You will note there has been no advancement of prophecy or morals since EGW's day - rather a return to worldly ways, and adoption of Rome's central tenet of faith, the Trinity. It's not a progressive movement which edges closer to Rome.

All leading pioneers and writers within the movement were anti-trinitarian, even though some had left Trinity churches.

What did these leading pioneers have in common?

• Joseph Bates (1792-1872)

• James White (1821-1881)

• Joseph H. Waggoner (1820-1889)

• John N. Andrews (1829-1883)

• J.N. Loughborough (1832-1924)

• Uriah Smith (1832-1903)

• S.N. Haskell (1833-1922)

• Alonzo T. Jones (1850-1923)

• E.J. Waggoner (1855-1916)

...They were all non-trinitarian.

http://theprophetstillspeaks.co.uk/

Do you know for certain that they were all non-trinitarian to the day they died? One thing I'm sure they all had in common was that they were open to new light and were truth seekers. Besides, I'm less interested in what they believed as to whether what they believed or what I believe are Biblically sound.

[Dr. Waite]

The fundamental principles you mention are, I believe, distinct from "...the pillars of our faith are,--the truths that have made us as a people what we are, leading us on step by step."-- Review and Herald, May 25, 1905. {CW 29.1}

She also calls them the "old landmarks."

The Landmarks Defined.--In Minneapolis God gave precious gems of truth to His people in new settings. This light from heaven by some was rejected with all the stubbornness the Jews manifested in rejecting Christ, and there was much talk about standing by the old landmarks. But there was evidence they knew not what the old landmarks were. There was evidence and there was reasoning from the word that commended itself to the conscience; but the minds of men were fixed, sealed against the entrance of light, because they had decided it was a dangerous error removing the "old landmarks" when it was not moving a peg of the old landmarks, but they had perverted ideas of what constituted the old landmarks. {CW 30.1}

The passing of the time in 1844 was a period of great events, opening to our astonished eyes the cleansing of the sanctuary transpiring in heaven, and having decided relation to God's people upon the earth, [also] the first and second angels' messages and the third, unfurling the banner on which was inscribed, "The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." One of the landmarks under this message was the temple of God, seen by His truth-loving people in heaven, and the ark containing the law of God. The light of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment flashed its strong rays in the pathway of the transgressors of God's law. The nonimmortality of the wicked is an old landmark. I can call to mind

31

nothing more that can come under the head of the old landmarks. All this cry about changing the old landmarks is all imaginary. {CW 30.2}

Neither Arian nor the Trinitarian doctrine of God is among the distinctive doctrines or landmarks of the SDA Church.

"Many of our people do not realize how firmly the foundation of our faith has been laid. My husband, Elder Joseph Bates, Father Pierce, Elder {Hiram} Edson, and others who were keen, noble, and true, were among those who, after the passing of the time in 1844, searched for the truth as for hidden treasure. I met with them, and we studied and prayed earnestly. Often we remained together until late at night, and sometimes through the entire night, praying for light and studying the Word. Again and again these brethren came together to study the Bible, in order that they might know its meaning, and be prepared to teach it with power. When they came to the point in their study where they said, "We can do nothing more," the Spirit of the Lord would come upon me, I would be taken off in vision, and a clear explanation of the passages

we had been studying would be given me, with instruction as to how we were to labor and teach effectively. Thus light was given that helped us to understand the scriptures in regard to Christ, His mission, and His priesthood. A line of truth extending from that time to the time when we shall enter the city of God, was made plain to me, and I gave to others the instruction that the Lord had given me." {1SM 206.4}

The trinity doctrine which claims to be "new light" clearly involves "Christ, His mission, and His priesthood". However, what the pioneers (i.e. My husband, Elder Joseph Bates, Father Pierce, Elder {Hiram} Edson, and others) taught regarding "Christ, His mission, and His priesthood" is a "line of truth extending from that time to the time when we shall enter the city of God". New Light has to be in line with previously established truth otherwise the new light has to be rejected.

[o2bwise]

Hi John317,

What do you make of my bucket explanation?

I mean...I took example texts and showed how if given their most apparent meaning, is such that I had 9 pieces of paper in a non-trinitarian bucket.

The NT contains literally HUNDREDS of texts that if given their most apparent meaning, is clearly non-trinitarian.

Anyway, with such a method of trying to extract the truth, the biblical evidence for non-trinitarianism is absolutely vast.

One other thought. It seems to me that if the word BEGOTTEN is biblically linked to the word SON, well, it is an event.

[Gordon1]

Tony, this is a good approach - to examine the evidence. More than buckets, an open mind is required. Many are immersed in Church culture and will defend it to the death, regardless of doctrinal purity. The same affliction hit the Jewish Church of Christ's time, the RC Church and all subsequent Protestant denominations. They lean on tradition and slide back to Rome, though it usually takes one hundred years. You may have witnessed what would happen to Christ if He came today and claimed to be the Son of God. He'd be called on the carpet by the remnant.

[Dr. Waite]

Tony, this is a good approach - to examine the evidence. More than buckets, an open mind is required. Many are immersed in Church culture and will defend it to the death, regardless of doctrinal purity. The same affliction hit the Jewish Church of Christ's time, the RC Church and all subsequent Protestant denominations. They lean on tradition and slide back to Rome, though it usually takes one hundred years. You may have witnessed what would happen to Christ if He came today and claimed to be the Son of God. He'd be called on the carpet by the remnant.

We need to examine the evidence as to whether the new truth (trinity doctrine which is part of the current 28 fundamental beliefs) contradicts or counts as error what the pioneers (My husband, Elder Joseph Bates, Father Pierce, Elder {Hiram} Edson, and others who were keen, noble, and true, were among those who, after the passing of the time in 1844) taught in regarding "Christ, His mission, and His priesthood).

[Gibs]

Clubv12,

I am a member of Jesus Christ's Ekklesia. This is the Remnant Church! The only one the gates of hell does not prevail against.

He is calling today for all His True Children to come and be in His Church. This one is not a structure of men. Also the teaching in it is His Word and only His Word.

It is not a corporation that has worldly corporate rules to abide by.

Also it is not 501 C3 compliant.

Also it will not emerge with any church structure of the world or take in any of it's teachings.

The only teachings in it are Christ's, none other is allowed.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gibs, I am not the least confused as to what Church you belong to. You are not a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church and preach a doctrine different than that organized body of believers. By this you meet the definition "off shoot". I deal with many such people and groups daily. Some are quite militant, some come to the organized official Seventh-day Adventist church I attend. I make it point to monitor and even prevent, at times, their actions, handouts, teaching and preaching on Church grounds. Especially when such actions lead to outright arguing (raised voices, intimidation, even bodily threats) on Church grounds. There are approximately thirteen such groups recognized in the NPUC. Not ONE of them agree with the others, each has their own individual ideas of what constitutes "Jesus Christ's Ekklesia". This is babylon, confusion of the highest order. Many of them call themselves Seventh-day Adventists, that is a lie. They justify the name in various ways, but make no mistake, if they say to MY neighbors they are Seventh-day Adventists it causes a lot of confusion over just what that name means. This is not right, they should have the courage to be up front with people such as my neighbors about exactly where they stand.

I don't care for those who masquerade here on this forum with the same basic intention, to deceive the members here as to where exactly they stand. In that regard, thank you, Gibs, for being clear about that. I would that others would be as forth coming and direct.

Dr. Waite says,

"We need to examine the evidence as to whether the new truth (trinity doctrine which is part of the current 28 fundamental beliefs) contradicts or counts as error..."

I have full confidence in the World Church (the G.C.) that this is precisely what has been done. I have full confidence that the 28 fundamental beliefs build upon and would be approved by our pioneers. As to what our pioneers believed, it is noteworthy the previous list offered did NOT include the name of the prophet, Ellen White. This was never an issue for her, it was a difficult thing for some of our pioneers to come to grips with. But in time, many of them did indeed gain a better understanding of the nature of the triune God.

The Father and the Son, no beginning, no end. Each with immortal life, unborrowed, of themselves. Each with a person, hands, arms. The Father hugs the Son in a tender embrace. The Holy Spirit is a subject where the less said the better! Certainly a member of the triune God, one who entered into the counsels of God to find a solution to the sin problem.

[Dr. Waite]

Dr. Waite says,

"We need to examine the evidence as to whether the new truth (trinity doctrine which is part of the current 28 fundamental beliefs) contradicts or counts as error..."

I have full confidence in the World Church (the G.C.) that this is precisely what has been done. I have full confidence that the 28 fundamental beliefs build upon and would be approved by our pioneers. As to what our pioneers believed, it is noteworthy the previous list offered did NOT include the name of the prophet, Ellen White. This was never an issue for her, it was a difficult thing for some of our pioneers to come to grips with. But in time, many of them did indeed gain a better understanding of the nature of the triune God.

The Father and the Son, no beginning, no end. Each with immortal life, unborrowed, of themselves. Each with a person, hands, arms. The Father hugs the Son in a tender embrace. The Holy Spirit is a subject where the less said the better! Certainly a member of the triune God, one who entered into the counsels of God to find a solution to the sin problem.

In reference to the Son, you say: "no beginning"

And although we may try to reason in regard to our Creator, how long He has had existence, where evil first entered into our world, and all these things, we may reason about them until we fall down faint and exhausted with the research when there is yet an infinity beyond. We cannot grasp it, so what man is there that dares to take that Bible and say this part is inspired and that part is not inspired? I would have both my arms taken off at my shoulders before I would ever make the statement or set my judgment upon the Word of God as to what is inspired and what is not inspired. {7BC 919.5}

How would finite man know anything about that matter? He is to take the Word of God as it reads, and then to appreciate it as it is, and to bring it into the life and to weave it into the character. There is everything plainly revealed in God's Word which concerns the salvation of men, and if we will take that Word and comprehend it to the very best of our ability, God will help us in its comprehension. {7BC 919.6}

Ellen White does NOT say that the Son had no beginning. In regard to how long the Son has had existence, she states: "We cannot grasp it". and when we try to determine the length of time in regard to how long he has had existence, there is "an infinity beyond".

In reference to the Son, you say: "no end".

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not" (John 1:1-5). The world did not see divinity in the humble Man of Nazareth. The only-begotten Son of the infinite God was in the world, and men knew Him not in His true character. {1SM 296.1}

"In him was life; and the life was the light of men" (John 1:4). It is not physical life that is here specified, but immortality, the life which is exclusively the property of God. The Word, who was with God, and who was God, had this life. Physical life is something which each individual receives. It is not eternal or immortal; for God, the Life-giver, takes it again. Man has no control over his life. But the life of Christ was unborrowed. No one can take this life from Him. "I lay it down of myself" (John 10: 18), He said. In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as His personal Saviour. "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (John 17:3). This is the open fountain of life for the world. {1SM 296.2}

It was the "life, original, unborrowed, underived" which the Son laid down and which he took again because He received the commandment for his Father allowing Him to take up again this "life, original, unborrowed, underived".

[ClubV12]

Dr. Waite, my beliefs are entirely consistent with the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists, which in turn, is entirely consistent with the Spirit of Prophecy.

There is sufficient light presented in both the bible and the Spirit of Prophecy where none need er on the fundamental beliefs of God's specially appointed people to deliver the third angels message. The organized, sanctioned Seventh-day Adventist Church, there is no other group or Church recognized of heaven to whom is given this specific work.

I am as clear on the point of Christs eternity and unborrowed immortal life as is the prophet.

In regard to how long the Son has had existence, she states: "We cannot grasp it".

Uriah Smith tried to grasp it, as many others have done and are doing on this thread right now! In defiance of her clear counsel, you cannot grasp it. She herself never entered into this mystery, which is akin to standing on Holy ground.

[o2bwise]

ClubV12,

Quote:

Unlike so many cowards who have proclaimed the Church is in apostasy and removed their membership or worse, created their own offshoot Church.

This is an unfortunate statement.

[ClubV12]

Not my word o2bwise, a word Sister White uses a LOT in her work.

"The cowards and rebels had perished in the wilderness, but the righteous spies ate of the grapes of Eshcol." Conflict and Courage pg 123

As for me, I will draw courage from their cowardice and warmth from their coldness.

"These few Christians were strong in God, and more precious in His sight than half a world who bear the name of Christ, and yet are cowards in His cause." Early Writings pg 225

There are many, many such examples.

[Dr. Waite]

Dr. Waite, my beliefs are entirely consistent with the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists, which in turn, is entirely consistent with the Spirit of Prophecy.

There is sufficient light presented in both the bible and the Spirit of Prophecy where none need er on the fundamental beliefs of God's specially appointed people to deliver the third angels message. The organized, sanctioned Seventh-day Adventist Church, there is no other group or Church recognized of heaven to whom is given this specific work.

I am as clear on the point of Christs eternity and unborrowed immortal life as is the prophet.

In regard to how long the Son has had existence, she states: "We cannot grasp it".

Uriah Smith tried to grasp it, as many others have done and are doing on this thread right now! In defiance of her clear counsel, you cannot grasp it. She herself never entered into this mystery, which is akin to standing on Holy ground.

IS SOMEONE FROM THE WORLD CHURCH OF SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS GOING TO STAND BESIDE YOU IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT? OR BECAUSE YOU ARE A MEMBER OF THE WORLD CHURCH OF SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS DOES THIS FACT AUTOMATICALLY GUARANTEE THAT YOUR NAME IS WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE?

[ClubV12]

Of course you know the answer to both questions Dr. Waite.

With COURAGE I proclaim my allegiance to that body of believers raised up by our Lord to deliver the last message of hope to a dieing world. That body of believers known as the Seventh-day Adventist Church, of which I am a member. They are my people, I will not abandon them. I will unite my efforts with them, support them with pen, voice, tithe and offerings that the good news may be proclaimed.

For an offshoot the question is not "can the Church save me"? The question is, can you find salvation when you have knowingly, willfully, removed your association from the Church?

Easy to be an offshoot, no courage required. No one you have to submit to, no rules, no tithe, no offerings, no boss. Your totally on your own to form your own ideas, make your own plans, have church in the comfort of your own home if you like. What kind of courage does THAT take??

[o2bwise]

There is no way the organized church is going thru. When it adopted the trinity (though deceit, by the way), it fulfilled the Pharisees exclaiming they have no King but Rome.

[ClubV12]

Ah, so I take it you disagree with the Seventh-day Adventist Churches position on the triune God? Like many others here feel the Church has apostized and lost it's favor with God? The important question, and I'm not looking for an answer o2bwise, is what has been your response to this?

I am not blind to the defaults and apostasy of this Church! No more than many of Gods children were blind to the apostasy of the Children of Israel. Yet, Joshua and Caleb found the courage to suffer with the chosen people of God and wander with them in spite of their own opinion. They willfully submitted to the will of God for His people, whom He will reprove and discipline as the need arises. Whom He will bless when they turn back to Him, as will surely happen when the Church is purified by the shaking.

David honored Saul, the Lords annointed, even when Saul was seeking to take his life! Now THATS courage to stay the course, to defend the truth, in spite of the cost.

Will you join with me, o2bwise, will you connect yourself with Gods chosen people? He has not abandoned His people, whom He loves deeply.

[Gibs]

ClubV12, You and millions better be about righting the "vessel" if is going to go through instad of being a go alonger with all the apostasies that have come in.

I could name them, have done it on this forum seveal times but I would think you are aware of them! I talk to many here that are but are afraid to step out or speak up. So they are team players but not with any heart!

Some think she is turning around! Show me, I'm not from Misouri but from what I've been seeing it is coming in faster and faster!

Sister White was not lying to her Sister here, read,

"God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church. {UL 315.5}

Where two or three are present who love and obey the commandments of God, Jesus there presides, let it be in the desolate place of the earth, in the wilderness, in the city enclosed in prison walls. The glory of God has penetrated the prison walls, flooding with glorious beams of heavenly light the darkest dungeon. His saints may suffer, but their sufferings will, like the apostles of old, spread their faith and win souls to Christ and glorify His holy name. The bitterest opposition expressed by those who hate God's great moral standard of righteousness should not and will not shake the steadfast soul who trusts fully in God. . . . {UL 315.6}

They that will be doers of the word are building securely, and the tempest and storm of persecution will not shake their foundation, because their souls are rooted to the eternal Rock.--Letter 108, Oct. 28, 1886, to her older sister and her husband who had not accepted the Sabbath truth. {UL 315.7}

The church struture of men is not our Saviour. Church is only had when Jesus is present among them and the the worship must be in Spirit and Truth. If it is not in THE SPIRIT AND THE TRUTH, He cannot and will not be present as nothing else is acceptable!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gib says,

"Some think she is turning around!"

The wise know she is not, it is not yet time, that time will come when the third angel finishes his terrible work of shaking everything that can be shaken. Some, as we see, have already been shaken out and Sister White says thats OK!! The Church is better off without them!

Until that work is finished the Church will increasingly appear as about to fall. Whole Churches will fall, perhaps whole Conferences or higher! If you think the Church has already fallen, you have seen only the tip of the iceberg.

Of course I am quite familiar with the above quote of "where two or three are gathered" as constituting the "Church". And other such quotes. I to struggled with what these meant, how should I respond. I to was horrified at the apostasy I could find all around me. I don't look for it anymore, I keep my eyes on Jesus. I pattern my life after His, not after the people I meet in Church.

Such quotes are often used by off-shoots and those openly fighting against and opposing Gods true, organized, sanctioned by heaven and earthly powers Church. His one true Church with a message for this dieing world. Such quotes designed to lead people away from the organized Church are grossly misleading. It's no different than those who take a bible text here or there and interpret it to mean and eternal hell, or the rapture, the soul going to heaven upon death. Sad Gibs, very sad. I will follow Daniels example and pray for my own sins and the sins of my people. But I WILL NOT abandon this Church!!!

[Dr. Waite]

Of course you know the answer to both questions Dr. Waite.

With COURAGE I proclaim my allegiance to that body of believers raised up by our Lord to deliver the last message of hope to a dieing world. That body of believers known as the Seventh-day Adventist Church, of which I am a member. They are my people, I will not abandon them. I will unite my efforts with them, support them with pen, voice, tithe and offerings that the good news may be proclaimed.

For an offshoot the question is not "can the Church save me"? The question is, can you find salvation when you have knowingly, willfully, removed your association from the Church?

Easy to be an offshoot, no courage required. No one you have to submit to, no rules, no tithe, no offerings, no boss. Your totally on your own to form your own ideas, make your own plans, have church in the comfort of your own home if you like. What kind of courage does THAT take??

Let me tell you the truth. What does the only true God want?

"But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines, and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority,-- not one or all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord" in its support." {GC88 595.1}

Section 2 of the fundamental beliefs states: "There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons" The following versus are give in support(Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.) However, none of these versus provide me with a plain "Thus saith the Lord" which states that the "only true God" is a "unity of three co-eternal persons".

Where is the plain "Thus saith the Lord" in support of this doctrine?

Where in the Bible is it recorded that Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, worshiped a "unity of three co-eternal Persons"?

Please give me the chapter and verse where it is recorded that Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, worshiped anyone or any thing (like a unity) other than His Father who is the "only true God"? In John 17:3, the Lord Jesus Christ clearly states who the "only true God" is.

[ClubV12]

Give you chapter and verse on the established doctrines of the Church Dr. Waite? And what would that accomplish for you? Though one rose from the dead you would not believe as the Seventh-day Adventist Church believes on this issue. They read, study the same verses, the same bible texts and come to a different conclusion than yourself. Shall I abandon them and follow you instead? Do you have more truth than they? In a multitude of counselors there is safety.

I can't help you with more bible texts Dr. Waite, you have already chosen your path.

"There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons".

The verses used to support this doctrine are clear to me, they are a plain thus saith the Lord. They are in perfect harmony with what Ellen White taught on the subject as well.

Interesting that is coming to light that some of those who oppose the triune God on this particular thread include a number of folks who have removed or have been removed from the Church. It's no surprise such take a position that opposes the fundamental beliefs, on this issue and on many other issues.