The Trinity?

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Christ was/is both God and man.

With man you mean human. This is an oxymoron - God is not a human and a human can't be God. Is suppose this is again one of the deep mysteries of the Bible.

[epaminondas]

You'd have to do more cherry picking and dancing through more hoops to avoid the Trinitarian conclusion.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

This has been dealt with several times in this thread - Adam & Eve are to be "one"; believers are to be "one".

Adam and Eve were one family. Believers are to be in full agreement on core religious principles - there were problems with this even in the Bible which led to the first council of Jerusalem. But believers are still a multitude of believers.

Do you now say the trinity is a family of gods or gods in full agreement on certain things?

No wonder you didn't want to answer that one.

[o2bwise]

Well, epaminondas,

I don't think my post was very speculative. A short summary is that I see no merit in saying God could not literally beget a son because He would need a woman with whom to be able to do so.

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But there is a case to be made for saying that if Jesus were God and his Father was God then his mother must also have been God. Do you want to make Mary a God?

Just to be clear, the following well express my sense of truth:

Quote:

Christ Our Righteouusness, EJ Waggoner, 1888:

The Scriptures declare that Christ is "the only begotten son of God." He is begotten, not created. As to when He was begotten, it is not for us to inquire, nor could our minds grasp it if we were told. The prophet Micah tells us all that we can know about it in these words, "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall He come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity." Micah 5:2, margin. There was a time when Christ proceeded forth and came from God, from the bosom of the Father (John 8:42; 1:18), but that time was so far back in the days of eternity that to finite comprehension it is practically without beginning.

But the point is that Christ is a begotten Son and not a created subject.

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He was born of the Holy Ghost. In other words, Jesus Christ was born again. He came from heaven, God’s first-born, to the earth, and was born again. But all in Christ’s work goes by opposites for us: He, the sinless one, was made to be sin in order that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. He, the living One, the Prince and Author of life, died that we might live. He whose goings forth have been from the days of eternity, the first-born of God, was born again in order that we might be born again. (Christian Perfection, paragraphs 53, 54 A Sermon By A. T. Jones, Review & Herald, July 7 - August 1, 1899) (This is also found in Lessons on Faith, page 154)

I am curious why you took Christ being begotten of God as at the incarnation. Christ was not begotten of God at that time, He was born of a woman. He did not inherit the nature of God at that time, He inherited a human nature.

I am also curious if you believe Christ had a pre-incarnate existence and if so, if you could explain what you believe it was.

Blessings,

Tony

[o2bwise]

Hi epaminondas,

I did see that you previously stated that Jesus had a preincarnate existence as the son of God and so no need to answer that question!

Thanks,

Tony

[o2bwise]

By the way, I am pretty sure that the belief that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each have independence of consciousness is not trinitarian, rather is tri-theism.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

The context appears to require the passive, since it's unlikely that the Apostle is saying we ought to copy Christ because he didn't steal something.

Why? Paul said people should copy Jesus by not trying to climb the ladder of ambition and power by hook or by crook, as they are wont to do, even in the church hierarchy, but to rather be humble.

That makes sense, doesn't it?

Does anyone know how the Revised English Bible translates this verse? I think it's from 1989.

[John317]

Quote:

ACV: Colossians 1:15. who is an image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

In the Greek "firstborn" is nominative singular. Both "all" and "creation" are singular genitive - genitive is the possessive declension. It means something (firstborn) belongs to what is in the genitive (creation). If you say Stavros is the tallest of all Greeks, clearly, Stavros is also a Greek. Now if you say Bjorn is taller than all Greeks, clearly Bjorn is not a Greek. I don't know any Greek, but I'm sure Greek can express the distinction between these two situations, as well. That really makes it look as if Jesus was part of creation.

Is it possible to translate Col 1: 15 as "The Son is... the firstborn over all creation"?

I would suggest that both translations, "firstborn of all creation" and "firstborn over all creation," signify the same thing about Christ.

The context requires this meaning, because the very next verses are about the fact that Christ created all things in the universe:

Col. 1:16-17

"For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. [17] And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

Notice that it says, "The Son is... the firstborn of (or over) all creation, BECAUSE BY HIM ALL THING WERE CREATED... And He exists before all things, and in Him all things hold together."

In other words, without Christ the entire universe would fall apart.

Since Christ exists before all things, He cannot be among those things that were created.

And since Christ is God, He cannot have been created.

Col. 1: 15, "The Son is the image of the invisible God," is saying precisely the same thing about Christ that Hebrews 1: 3 and the last clause of John 1: 1 are saying.

They are all saying that Christ is the exact representaton of the Father's being, or essence. "What God is, the Word (Christ) is." (John 1: 1, last clause) (NEB).

[John317]

With man you mean human. This is an oxymoron - God is not a human and a human can't be God. Is suppose this is again one of the deep mysteries of the Bible.

The Bible teaches that the Word-- who was God, i.e., of the same essence as the Father-- became human. John 1: 1, 14. This is precisely what other verses of Scripture teach.

1 Tim. 3:16

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

That is the reading of the vast majority of NT Greek manuscripts and is completely in harmony with the rest of Scripture. For instance, Hebrews 1: 3, 8,10; 2: 16-17; Titus 2: 13; 2 Peter 1: 1.

Hebrews 1:3, 8, 10--

He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power...

But of the Son he says,

"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,

the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom...

And [of the Son],

"You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,

and the heavens are the work of your hands."

Hebrews 2:16-17

"For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. [17] Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people."

Titus 2:13--

"...waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."

2 Peter 1:1--

"Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ..."

Romans 9:5

"To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen."

Matthew 1:23

"Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son,

and they shall call his name Immanuel"

(which means, God with us).

God was made flesh and dwelt among us. He is still "God with us." He promises to be with us to the end of the age. Matt 28: 20.

[John317]

Does anyone know how the Revised English Bible translates this verse? I think it's from 1989.

Philippians 2: 6 in the Revised English Bible (1989)reads, "He was in the form of God; yet He laid no claim to equality with God..."

This is the same translation that gives the following readings:

John 1: 1-- "In the beginning the Word already was. The Word was in God's presence, and what God was, the Word was."

Col 1: 16, 17-- "... [the Son's] is the primacy over all creation... He exists before all things, and all things are held together in him."

Titus 2: 13-- "... our great God and Savior Jesus Christ..."

2 Peter 1: 1-- "... the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ."

John 8: 58-- "Jesus said, 'In very truth I tell you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"

Compare Exodus 3: 14, "God answered, 'I AM that I am. Tell them that I AM has sent you to them.'"

According to all these texts in the REB, Christ was/is certainly "God,"-- even "our great God."

[Gerr]

Quote:

This has been dealt with several times in this thread - Adam & Eve are to be "one"; believers are to be "one".

Adam and Eve were one family. Believers are to be in full agreement on core religious principles - there were problems with this even in the Bible which led to the first council of Jerusalem. But believers are still a multitude of believers.

Do you now say the trinity is a family of gods or gods in full agreement on certain things?

No wonder you didn't want to answer that one.

Adam & Eve one family? You are setting up a straw man and then try to knock it down. Try expanding your concept about the oneness of a husband & wife and the oneness of believers, and that will give a hint as to the oneness of the triune God.

[Gerr]

Not one body, but one spirit, one way of thinking.

"The unity that exists between Christ and His disciples does not destroy the personality of either.

They are one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person.

It is thus that God and Christ are One."

(Ministry of Healing 422, also 8 Testimonies 269)

Absolutely. It's so clear, it should not even need saying. "We/they are one" is an idiomatic expression. It exists in English and most likely a host of other languages. Obviously it existed in Biblical Greek, as well. It does not mean the entities involved are really one entity, a composite entity or equal in status.

So what's your problem with the trinity?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: epaminondas

Does anyone know how the Revised English Bible translates this verse? I think it's from 1989.

Philippians 2: 6 in the Revised English Bible (1989)reads, "He was in the form of God; yet He laid no claim to equality with God..."

The REB translation of Phil 2: 6 has the same significance as the TNIV:

"Who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage..."

Others have "something to be exploited..."

I submit that that's what's meant by laying claim to equality with God as a reason to stay in heaven instead of coming into the world to save us.

[John317]

Now you deal with this:ACV: I Timothy 2:5. For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Jesus Christ,

Could you explain what you see in that verse that is a "problem" for Trinitarians?

How do Trinitarians see this verse? How do you see it?

[John317]

Quote:

The context appears to require the passive, since it's unlikely that the Apostle is saying we ought to copy Christ because he didn't steal something.

Why? Paul said people should copy Jesus by not trying to climb the ladder of ambition and power by hook or by crook, as they are wont to do, even in the church hierarchy, but to rather be humble.

That makes sense, doesn't it?

Does anyone know how the Revised English Bible translates this verse? I think it's from 1989.

What do you find most admirable about Christ--- that He would not be like Satan? Or that Christ would leave heaven as God and become a human in order suffer and die?

Which one of these best fits the context and the lesson of Phil 2: 5-11?

What brings greater glory to God and exemplifies His unselfish character of agape-love--- to not steal the position of God? Or to voluntarily exchange the glories of heaven for the sufferings of the this world in order to save us?

I think the answer is obvious.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

You'd have to do more cherry picking and dancing through more hoops to avoid the Trinitarian conclusion.

I don't do any cherry picking. I deal with every one of the passages trinitarians use to make their point and show why they don't do what trinitarians want them to do. It's really easy, they're so far removed from saying what trinitarians want them to say.

Now you deal with this:

Quote:

ACV: I Timothy 2:5. For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Jesus Christ,

And while you're at it, here's another one:

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ACV: I Corinthians 15:28. And when all things are made subordinate to him, then the Son himself will also be made subordinate to him who subordinated all things to him, so that God may be all in all.

This will need some real spin-doctoring. Are you up to it?

Yes, I fully agree; there is ONE God! But then what do you do with:

ESV | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ýýNASB95 | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ýýNIV84 | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ýýNRSV | ýJn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ýýKJV 1900 | ýJn 1:1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ESV | ýPhp 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, ý7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. ý8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

ýýNASB95 | ýPhp 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, ý7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. ý8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

ýýNIV84 | ýPhp 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, ý7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. ý8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross!

ýýNRSV | ýPhp 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, ý7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, ý8 he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death— even death on a cross.

ýýKJV 1900 | ýPhp 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: ý7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: ý8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

ESV | ýAc 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit ..... You have not lied to man but to God.”

ýýNASB95 | ýAc 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit ....You have not lied to men but to God.”

ýýNIV84 | ýAc 5:3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit .... You have not lied to men but to God.”

ýýNRSV | ýAc 5:3 “Ananias,” Peter asked, “why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit ..... You did not lie to us but to God!”

ýýKJV 1900 | ýAc 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, ...... thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

ESV | ýMt 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Notice "name" not "names" because they only have one name, and I believe that is "YHWH".

Like I said, I would have to pick more cherries & go through more hoops to accept your fanciful interpretations to avoid the triune godhead.

How can you worship Jesus UNLESS He is also God? You are making a big issue about whether the word should be "grasped" or "seized" in Phil 2:6. That is totally irrelevant, IMO. Unless the pre-incarnate was fully God, there would be no point in Paul saying that He "emptied" & "humbled" Himself. One cannot empty or humble one's self from an inferior position.

[John317]

...And while you're at it, here's another one: ACV: I Corinthians 15:28. And when all things are made subordinate to him, then the Son himself will also be made subordinate to him who subordinated all things to him, so that God may be all in all.

This will need some real spin-doctoring. Are you up to it?

First, look at the entire passage in its full context:

Quote:

1 Cor. 15:20-28

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. [21] For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. [22] For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. [23] But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. [24] Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. [25] For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. [26] The last enemy to be destroyed is death. [27] For " God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. [28] When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

Since you bring up these verses as a "problem" for Trinitarians, please give your view of them. What is your understanding of what the Holy Spirt is saying to us here?

[John317]

ESV | ýMt 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Notice "name" not "names" because they only have one name, and I believe that is "YHWH".

I agree that the one name must be YHWH, which means essentially "the self-existent One."

So all three members, or Persons, of the eternal Godhead, are YHWH.

When the early church baptized "in the name of Jesus," they understood that "name" to involve the Father and the Holy Spirit. Similarly when we pray, all three Persons of the Godhead-- YHWH-- are involved in receiving and answering our prayers

[Gibs]

No, YHWH, also means ONE. You all know the Holy Spirit is what God is and is the very person of the Father, not another one.

You all know that it is the Father in Christ, not another person. Yes of course Jesus is another person that the Father as of yet continues to dwell in until all is completed and the sin problem cleared once and for all eternity.

So in a sense it can be said there is two persons in the Godhead.

Yes the Father is the Head, and was in Christ Fully, He is now still reigning and will until the job is done!

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Then comes the time and is close now,

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Yahweh! YHWH.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

No, YHWH, also means ONE. You all know the Holy Spirit is what God is and is the very person of the Father, not another one.

We've already been over the significance of "one" in reference to God and YHWH, that it is referring to the "one of unity" and not the mathematical 1 that refers to a single person. Jesus prays that his followers be "one," yet He is not praying that they be a single person.

Yes, it is true that the Holy Spirit is God, but the Holy Spirit is not Jesus Christ, nor is the Holy Spirit the Father.

Jesus Christ is also God, but Jesus Christ is not the Father.

The Holy Spirit is not "another God," of course. There is only one God, and that God is YHWH.

Do you believe that Christ is YHWH Immanuel?

Isn't Christ YHWH as much as the Father is YHWH?

[o2bwise]

Hi Gibs,

I see that you have more than once offered the following rationale:

Jesus is God because God is fully in Him.

I just want to suggest a couple things that I think are quite solid rationally.

1. If a concept is not universally true, one needs more than the concept itself to be able to demonstrate that it is true in any specific case.

Ephesians 3:19 NKJV

to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

You say Jesus must be God because God is in Him. Well, if that is universal in application, it must follow that whenever Christians are filled with all the fulness of God, they must all be God as well.

Stated as a converse, one could say that even though Christians may be filled with all the fulness of God, they still will not be God.

And so one could extend the same logic to Christ. Just because He may be filled with all the fulness of God, this alone is insufficient to prove He must be God.

In short, your rationale for "proving" the divinity of Christ is a logical fallacy.

Now, I believe Christ is divine, but for another reason than you suggest.

Because He is the only begotten Don of God and thus acquired divinity by inheritance.

Blessings,

Tony

[Gibs]

Means the Father was fully in Him and He, Jesus is to reign until He has finished the job!

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Then when it is, Note, The Father once again is all in all!

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Now note!

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

The Father is the Head!

So, fully God in a body, Yahweh, Father.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

Ephesians 3:19 NKJV

to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

You say Jesus must be God because God is in Him. Well, if that is universal in application, it must follow that whenever Christians are filled with all the fulness of God, they must all be God as well.

Stated as a converse, one could say that even though Christians may be filled with all the fulness of God, they still will not be God.

Compare Col. 2: 9-- "In Christ lives the the whole fullness of Deity in bodily form."

It doesn't mean that the Father is living in Christ's body; it is saying that deity itself lives in Him. It would be the same as saying that in Adam's body lived the whole fullness of humanity.

So Jesus Christ is God because He has the very nature of God. He is not God because the Father is in Him. Isn't, after all, the Son in the Father also? (See John 10: 38; 17: 21.)

Does that mean, then, that the Father is God because He has the Son in Him? Of course not!

Jesus Christ is God for the same reason that a human being is human. We are humans because we have the very nature or essence of humanity.

Similarly a dog is a dog because it has a dogish essence.

Only God has the nature or essence of God, and only three Persons in all the universe share that identical nature: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That is the Godhead, the Deity.

[John317]

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

What's the difference between these two statements? Are they saying the same thing?

[Gordon1]

Well put Tony.

Jesus is Divine by inheritance.

"He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they [the angels]." (Hebrews 1:4)

The life of an angel could not ransom mankind,

Jesus "being made (gennao = begat, begotten) so much better than the angels." (Hebrews 1:4)

He was not created, He was begotten by the Ancient of Days.

(in the ancient of days ~ the days of eternity ~ Micah 5:2 margin)

His credentials are established before the foundation of the world.