Is the Bible the Word________

[BobRyan]

Bible prophecies are best used to affirm the Christian belief in God and the inspiration of the Bible. A great example is that the Bible predicts that certain cities will never be rebuilt - including the ancient city of Babylon in Iraq that HAS had civil governments determined to rebuild the city and yet STILL remains uninhabited - and desolate!

Another great example is the book of Daniel predicting 2300 years of human history - starting with the Babylonian Empire, and then Persia and then Greece and then Rome and then the break up of the Romans empire AND THEN the fact that Europe never comes back to single empire status again in all of human history.

Just so many "details to be ignored" for the Christian leaving Christianity and turning to atheism for comfort and religious conviction. But for the atheist coming into Christianity - it is indeed very powerful news!

in Christ,

Bob

[Igakusei]

Bible prophecies are best used to affirm the Christian belief in God and the inspiration of the Bible. A great example is that the Bible predicts that certain cities will never be rebuilt - including the ancient city of Babylon in Iraq that HAS had civil governments determined to rebuild the city and yet STILL remains uninhabited - and desolate!

Another great example is the book of Daniel predicting 2300 years of human history - starting with the Babylonian Empire, and then Persia and then Greece and then Rome and then the break up of the Romans empire AND THEN the fact that Europe never comes back to single empire status again in all of human history.

Just so many "details to be ignored" for the Christian leaving Christianity and turning to atheism for comfort and religious conviction. But for the atheist coming into Christianity - it is indeed very powerful news!

in Christ,

Bob

Considering how much debate there is over which kingdoms are which, especially given that it was almost certainly written in the second century BCE, I hardly find it compelling. You're parroting the Adventist view as if it's the obvious conclusion that can't be denied by honest thinking individuals, when that's anything but the case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_monarchies

[cardw]

Just so many "details to be ignored" for the Christian leaving Christianity and turning to atheism for comfort and religious conviction. But for the atheist coming into Christianity - it is indeed very powerful news!

I think it is quite the opposite. I think you have to ignore the details.

Igakusei gave you a number of links that completely and easily refute your assertions.

That leaves us with three options.

1. You didn't read the information. That means you are willfully ignorant.

2. You did read the information, but you have chosen to ignore it.

3. You did read the information, but you didn't comprehend it.

Any of these options make it a waste of time to dialog with you other than as a demonstration for others.

[Bravus]

Ezekiel 26:7-14:

7 For thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, and with horsemen and a host of many soldiers. 8 He will kill with the sword your daughters on the mainland. He will set up a siege wall against you and throw up a mound against you, and raise a roof of shields against you. 9 He will direct the shock of his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. 10 His horses will be so many that their dust will cover you. Your walls will shake at the noise of the horsemen and wagons and chariots, when he enters your gates as men enter a city that has been breached. 11 With the hoofs of his horses he will trample all your streets. He will kill your people with the sword, and your mighty pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your riches and loot your merchandise. They will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses. Your stones and timber and soil they will cast into the midst of the waters. 13 And I will stop the music of your songs, and the sound of your lyres shall be heard no more. 14 I will make you a bare rock. You shall be a place for the spreading of nets. You shall never be rebuilt, for I am the LORD; I have spoken, declares the Lord GOD.

Up to date Google Map of Tyre, Lebanon, a thriving small city.

[CoAspen]

It does depend on ones perspective! Was the original city rebuilt into the thriving city it was once on a time??

History of Tyre

[debbym]

Check this out.

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/200...-testament.aspx

Quote:

4. Prosperity. Both wicked and repentant may be built up (Mal 3:15; Job 22:23; Prv 24:3).

The statement that Tyre will never be rebuilt means more than the restructuring of stones, wood and mortar. Tyre will never regain international prominence as a world trader and colonizer. She will never be a rich, prosperous, flourishing, world power as she was in Ezekiel’s day. The denial of rebuilding goes far beyond a mere architectural project. It must include making Tyre into the person she was in the early sixth century BC. It must be kept in mind that the meaning is “you will never be rebuilt,” not “the city will never be rebuilt.”

The statement in 26:14 does not deny there would be buildings on the island. It means that Tyre would never be rebuilt into the commercial superpower she was in Ezekiel’s day. It means that the palaces and temples of Ezekiel’s day would forever lie deep underneath the ground (and the water!), never to be revived. It would in no way be rebuilt into the prosperous, powerful living entity she was at the time the oracle was given.

Quote:

1. The rubble from Tyre would be put into the sea. This was fulfilled in 332 BC by Alexander the Great’s army, 250 years after Ezekiel was written.

2. The passage does not state that Nebuchadnezzar would capture the island city and get its wealth. On the other hand, it does not say Nebuchadnezzar would not conquer Tyre at all—he conquered “Old Tyre.” It simply states he did not get anything of value from it. This is exactly what Ezekiel 29:17ff states. There is no contradiction.

3. The total destruction of Tyre would be accomplished gradually by one nation after another.

4. In the end Tyre would be destroyed down to the bare rock and never rebuilt. The final destruction took place in AD 1291, almost 2,000 years after Ezekiel was written.

Thus it turns out that, with a close investigation of the text and history, Ezekiel 26 is actually a proof text for the inerrancy and supernatural origin of the Bible!

[debbym]

Rich,

no one is forcing you to think or believe any particular view. Your agenda to ridicule or invalidate Christianity and particularly Adventism is showing through.

sigh....

[Bravus]

It does depend on ones perspective! Was the original city rebuilt into the thriving city it was once on a time??

History of Tyre

Yes, it's probably got a larger population now than it's ever had. (117,000)

It's certainly not a barren place of rocks for the spreading of nets.

If the Bible is supported by the fulfilment of its prophecies, then this example needs to be addressed seriously.

[Bravus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon

[cardw]

no one is forcing you to think or believe any particular view. Your agenda to ridicule or invalidate Christianity and particularly Adventism is showing through.

[debbym]

rich,

NVM

[Bravus]

I have a different approach to Rich. I do not wish to challenge people's faith.

I simply want people to tell the truth, and to compare their claims with reality.

[debbym]

Quote:

I have a different approach to Rich. I do not wish to challenge people's faith.

I simply want people to tell the truth, and to compare their claims with reality.

beauty is in the eye of the beholder Bravus.

i trust Rich arrived to the place he is at very sincerely and honestly.

He has infinite value, as does his family. And i am sure he loves deeply.

He doesn't get that God is love. I mentioned it before, and may again.

i am sorry that in his experience apparently human beings have so misrepresented God so deeply that he cannot see any love in God.

I could not either except for those people in my life that did express and reveal love that i was able to recognize. And come to find i could also recognize that love in the bible.

it is not cult, it is development of every ability and the dawning of freedom of choice, and relief from fear.

i experience the Word of God as being full of abundance and generosity. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

*anything* from Scientology to Amway will yield belief.

This of course makes one their own god. When one finds Amway doesn't meet their deepest needs to perpetuity, it will most likely be too late to find a more reliable guide promising not to make any mistakes.

"“The rain and snow come down from the heavens

and stay on the ground to water the earth.

They cause the grain to grow,

producing seed for the farmer

and bread for the hungry.

It is the same with my word.

I send it out, and it always produces fruit.

It will accomplish all I want it to,

and it will prosper everywhere I send it."

Isaiah 55:10-12 NLT

God cares!

[debbym]

Quote:

When one finds Amway doesn't meet their deepest needs to perpetuity, it will most likely be too late to find a more reliable guide promising not to make any mistakes.

Hope springs eternal Life, it is never too late.

[cardw]

i trust Rich arrived to the place he is at very sincerely and honestly.

He doesn't get that God is love. I mentioned it before, and may again.

i am sorry that in his experience apparently human beings have so misrepresented God so deeply that he cannot see any love in God.

[Bravus]

Quote:

promising not to make any mistakes

Ah, but *delivering* on that promise: there's the rub.

Still no satisfactory response to the mistake of incorrectly predicting that Tyre would never be rebuilt.

[cardw]

it is not cult, it is development of every ability and the dawning of freedom of choice, and relief from fear.

i experience the Word of God as being full of abundance and generosity. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I think this video of Christopher Hitchens expresses the outrage that many of us experience from the teachings of religion.

[joeb]

The most accurate predictor of what you believe is where you are born.

Really? Hmmm... I was born into a completely disfunctional "Christian home". I was psychologically abused in the name of God to a degree that most people who go through what I did don't survive to adulthood.

Yet, here I am. I believe in God. I believe He loves me and you. I believe He is responsible for me surviving what I went through. I love Him and hold the devil responsible for what happened to me. The devil is the author of sin and all the suffering here on earth, not God.

According to you I should be an athiest. Why am I not an athiest and why don't I hate God?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

The most accurate predictor of what you believe is where you are born.

Really? Hmmm... I was born into a completely disfunctional "Christian home". I was psychologically abused in the name of God to a degree that most people who go through what I did don't survive to adulthood.

Yet, here I am. I believe in God. I believe He loves me and you. I believe He is responsible for me surviving what I went through. I love Him and hold the devil responsible for what happened to me. The devil is the author of sin and all the suffering here on earth, not God.

According to you I should be an athiest. Why am I not an athiest and why don't I hate God?

How can you come to that conclusion from what I posted?

Scientifically you would be more likely to remain Christian coming from an abusive Christian home simply because most abused become abusers that model the situation of their upbringing. Now please don't take away from that statement that I am calling you an abuser. These are predictors, not statements on individual cases.

When we use the term "predictor" it doesn't mean that it is 100 percent. The fact that we have to guess means that it's not 100 percent. So your post is really irrelevant to what I wrote.

The word "where" is not in reference to a specific family situation. It is in reference to geography. For example you are far more likely to be Muslim or Hindu than Christian if you were born in India. And you are far more likely to be Christian if you are born in the United States. This is a simple fact.

[Textus Receptus]

_________of the Creator?

I just ran into this quote on a forum I'm not allowed to post on

and thought it was important enough to comment about.

Quote:

I believe there are a lot of paths leading up the same mountain.

I'm wondering what you might think of what this says.

"For there is one body and one Spirit, just as you have been called to one glorious hope for the future. There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father, who is over all and in all and living through all."Ephesians 4:4-6 NLT

God blesses!

There is only one God and one prescription for salvation. Other mechanism to salvation is the work of Catholicism. If there were many mechanisms to salvation, there would never be a NEED for a 'remnant' as all would be a viable option. "You keep Saturday and I keep Sunday". Does this sound familiar?

[phkrause]

Quote:

promising not to make any mistakes

Ah, but *delivering* on that promise: there's the rub.

Still no satisfactory response to the mistake of incorrectly predicting that Tyre would never be rebuilt.

I'm not disagreeing with your statement about Tyre in general, but have you got a set of the SDABC? Maybe you think it is to bias, but I thought its comments about verse 14 were very interesting. If you do have the book, look at volume 4 pg 669. Its not the end all by far but it does have some merit, just like all the other links about the subject.

[Bravus]

Wish I did but I don't... don't know if you're willing to summarise key points...

[phkrause]

This is there commentary of verse 14: Built no more. Some have found difficulty with this prediction inview of the fact that there is a city of some 14,000 inhabitants (1974 estimate) on the present peninsula that was formerly the island and the causeway. Some believe that the prophecy applies only to the continental city. They point to the state of desolation there-a desolation so complete that the site of the ancient city cannot even be positively identified-as evidence of the fulfillment of the prophet's words. On the other hand it must be realized that even if a city were erected on the ancient mainland site, Ezekiel's prophecy would not be broken. Ezekiel's prophecy was against the Tyre of his day as it stood in its ancient glory and culture. That civilization and its accompanying city were to be destroyed. Any modern building on the site would not be a revival of the ancient culture and hence not a breaking of the prophet's word.

Furthermore, the expression "no more" (Heb. lo' . . . 'od) simply means "duration," the length of time undefined but to be derived from the context. Thus Joseph wept on the neck of his father 'od (Gen. 46:29), there translated, "a great while." The idea of indefinite perpetuity, though not necessarily in the word 'od, may be inferred from further references to Tyre's fate (see on v. 21). See also Isa. 13:20.

[cardw]

Some believe that the prophecy applies only to the continental city. They point to the state of desolation there-a desolation so complete that the site of the ancient city cannot even be positively identified-as evidence of the fulfillment of the prophet's words. On the other hand it must be realized that even if a city were erected on the ancient mainland site, Ezekiel's prophecy would not be broken. Ezekiel's prophecy was against the Tyre of his day as it stood in its ancient glory and culture.

Do you realize how convoluted this sounds? If I wanted to provide evidence that the message I was sending was from an advanced transcendent being I would certainly think of a better way to verify its validity than a complex translational debate over non original copies and poor archaeological evidence.

I can think of all kinds of ways of doing this. Why didn't god provide some stone carvings with E=MC2 or the quadratic equation or advanced physics and make sure these writings were exact copies passed down from one generation to the other. Why is the Bible preserved in mistake ridden Greek manuscripts that aren't even original copies?

Or preserve some writings in code that everybody knows about, but nobody can read and then allow the key to be dug up in some ancient Jewish settlement. And when you decode the writings it tells of Kennedy and the bay of pigs and has a list of United States presidents and gives the cure for cancer. It seems like the god of the universe could come up with some better ideas than I can.

But, no, you have these arcane "prophecies" that no one can agree on the reasons for them being prophecies. They are continually modified to keep them true as new information shows them to be less than reliable. This clearly shows they are made up by not very intelligent men.