Is the Bible the Word________

[Bravus]

Thanks for that, pk, but I have to admit that it still sounds like tapdancing to me... 'well, it didn't actually mean what it says'...

I'm happy to leave it there, but do think the issue should urge caution on those making triumphalist claims for Biblical prophecy as evidence.

[Bravus]

Here's a satellite photo of modern Tyre. Whatever may have been the situation in 1974, when the population was 14,000, now with a population of 117,000 there is clearly a considerable part of the city on the mainland, rather than the island and causeway. The Romanium Forum will have marked the location of the ancient city, and as you can see the suburbs go far beyond that onto the mainland.

[CoAspen]

This is there commentary of verse 14: Built no more. Some have found difficulty with this prediction inview of the fact that there is a city of some 14,000 inhabitants (1974 estimate) on the present peninsula that was formerly the island and the causeway. Some believe that the prophecy applies only to the continental city. They point to the state of desolation there-a desolation so complete that the site of the ancient city cannot even be positively identified-as evidence of the fulfillment of the prophet's words. On the other hand it must be realized that even if a city were erected on the ancient mainland site, Ezekiel's prophecy would not be broken. Ezekiel's prophecy was against the Tyre of his day as it stood in its ancient glory and culture. That civilization and its accompanying city were to be destroyed. Any modern building on the site would not be a revival of the ancient culture and hence not a breaking of the prophet's word.

Furthermore, the expression "no more" (Heb. lo' . . . 'od) simply means "duration," the length of time undefined but to be derived from the context. Thus Joseph wept on the neck of his father 'od (Gen. 46:29), there translated, "a great while." The idea of indefinite perpetuity, though not necessarily in the word 'od, may be inferred from further references to Tyre's fate (see on v. 21). See also Isa. 13:20.

The above is a good example of how a person should use Biblical Prophecy, time, culture understanding, language of the day, in other words context. I see no problem with the prophecy unless I were looking for a way out of believing the writer of such. It also, as well as many other events, shows why trying to use such events as proof of a God just may not be the best. It is a book written by humans explaining what they perceived God was telling them. Being human, they were able to make mistakes also. The more I listen and read about the Bible, plus the words written there, I am even more convinced that its primary purpose is to show people about the God Christians claim belief in, without all the answers people desire from it. The Bible is not a whip!!

[Bravus]

...and that's all I'm suggesting. A read back through this thread shows a whole lot of whipping being done. All I'm suggesting, like you, is that the Bible doesn't work that way.

I'm not challenging the veracity of the Bible, but of a particular approach to using it.

[phkrause]

Unfortunately there are some that are using it that way.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

it is never too late.

That's what many believe. However it doesn't agree with the full Gospel.

"And just as it is appointed for [all] men once to die, and after that the [certain] judgment,

Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are [eagerly, constantly, and patiently] waiting for and expecting Him." Hebrews 9:27-28 AMP brackets their's LHC

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

But, no, you have these arcane "prophecies" that no one can agree on the reasons for them being prophecies. They are continually modified to keep them true as new information shows them to be less than reliable. This clearly shows they are made up by not very intelligent men.

Ahh! The wisdom of the sages. Whether we confess it to be true or not, in the end we will turn back to dust. This magnificent body that was made to last forever, will for some, after the resurrection.

If you are right in your summation, in the end will never be able to boast of those highly intelligent conclusions. Those of the simple minds, as of a child, if right will walk on the streets of gold, sharing the love and joy meant for all but sorrowfully received only by those who recognize their limitations.

God cares! And I am not afraid of Him as He is preparing to deliver all who trust Him, from this cesspool of a world.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

it is never too late.

That's what many believe. However it doesn't agree with the full Gospel.

"And just as it is appointed for [all] men once to die, and after that the [certain] judgment,

Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are [eagerly, constantly, and patiently] waiting for and expecting Him." Hebrews 9:27-28 AMP brackets their's LHC

God cares!

Oh... and what is the cut off date for being to late....according to the Full Gospel or is that vs just The Gospel. Your text does not address or say when that is. As long as one is breathing, they can turn to God and accept salvation.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Oh... and what is the cut off date for being to late....according to the Full Gospel or is that vs just The Gospel. Your text does not address or say when that is. As long as one is breathing, they can turn to God and accept salvation.

"“Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— because they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”"Mark 3:28-30 NASB

"Listen to the weeping of my people;

it can be heard all across the land.

“Has the Lord abandoned Jerusalem?” the people ask.

“Is her King no longer there?”

“Oh, why have they provoked my anger with their carved idols

and their worthless foreign gods?” says the Lord.

“The harvest is finished,

and the summer is gone,” the people cry,

“yet we are not saved!”

I hurt with the hurt of my people.

I mourn and am overcome with grief."Jeremiah 8:19-21 NLT

"For the hearts of these people are hardened, and their ears cannot hear, and they have closed their eyes— so their eyes cannot see, and their ears cannot hear, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and let me heal them.’"Acts 28:25 NLT

God cares!

[CoAspen]

Your text goes off in an other direction and does not negate the original words by the poster 'it's never too late'! That is the gospel.....John 3:16!

[LifeHiscost]

"Behold [says the prophet, listen to the voice of] the cry of the daughter of my people [for help] because of those who dwell in a far country: Is not the Lord in Zion? Is not her King in her? [but the Lord answers] Why have they provoked Me to anger with their carved images and with foreign idols?

The harvest is past, the summer has ended and the gathering of fruit is over, yet we are not saved! [comes again the voice of the people.]"Jeremiah 8:19-21 AMP

"And by unlimited seduction to evil and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing (going to perdition) because they did not welcome the Truth but refused to love it that they might be saved."2 Thessalonians 2:10 AMP

"And my righteous ones will live by faith.

But I will take no pleasure in anyone who turns away.”But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction. We are the faithful ones, whose souls will be saved."Hebrews 10:39 NLT

I see a distinction between two groups. Perhaps it might be typified by these also.

"Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”"Matthew 13:30 NKJV

God cares!

[BobRyan]

This is there commentary of verse 14: Built no more. Some have found difficulty with this prediction inview of the fact that there is a city of some 14,000 inhabitants (1974 estimate) on the present peninsula that was formerly the island and the causeway. Some believe that the prophecy applies only to the continental city. They point to the state of desolation there-a desolation so complete that the site of the ancient city cannot even be positively identified-as evidence of the fulfillment of the prophet's words. On the other hand it must be realized that even if a city were erected on the ancient mainland site, Ezekiel's prophecy would not be broken. Ezekiel's prophecy was against the Tyre of his day as it stood in its ancient glory and culture. That civilization and its accompanying city were to be destroyed. Any modern building on the site would not be a revival of the ancient culture and hence not a breaking of the prophet's word.

Tyre -- like Babylon can never be rebuilt - not by any culture or any generation for the text to hold true.

So while the city of Baghdad does exist today - it is not in the exact location of the ruins of Babylon.

The same is true for calling a City Tyre today - but then not building on the cite where the City of Tyre used to exist.

Ancient ruins of Tyre -- still just - the "ancient ruins of Tyre"

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

_________of the Creator?

I just ran into this quote on a forum I'm not allowed to post on

and thought it was important enough to comment about.

Quote:

I believe there are a lot of paths leading up the same mountain.

I'm wondering what you might think of what this says.

"For there is one body and one Spirit, just as you have been called to one glorious hope for the future. There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father, who is over all and in all and living through all."Ephesians 4:4-6 NLT

God blesses!

Indeed - the Bible is the only Holy Book given by God to man as scripture.

But that does not mean that all those other man-made books will not make some sort of false claim to it.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Then of course we have -

Ancient ruins of Babylon - still just - the "ancient ruins of Babylon"

Here is an article about efforts to rebuild Babylon's ruins - running aground "again".

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/03/arts/03babylon.html?_r=0

[BobRyan]

By contrast - some cities are built on top of the old ruins of older cities - for example - Rome, Paris, London, Seattle, San Francisco.

[phkrause]

Bob we can also include Jericho to that list. Another city which was predicted to never be rebuilt, but there is a city Jericho, but as you mention about the others, its also in a different location. I personally have no problem with the SDABC of the city of Tyre, how they explain it.

[Bravus]

So the conclusion of the whole matter is that the Bible is amazingly, supernaturally accurate in predicting the future - if you allow almost infinite wiggle room in making the future match the prediction. Sorry, but not convincing except to those already convinced.

[cardw]

Quote:

But, no, you have these arcane "prophecies" that no one can agree on the reasons for them being prophecies. They are continually modified to keep them true as new information shows them to be less than reliable. This clearly shows they are made up by not very intelligent men.

Ahh! The wisdom of the sages. Whether we confess it to be true or not, in the end we will turn back to dust. This magnificent body that was made to last forever, will for some, after the resurrection.

If you are right in your summation, in the end will never be able to boast of those highly intelligent conclusions. Those of the simple minds, as of a child, if right will walk on the streets of gold

So you think it's a virtue to be simple minded?

What you demonstrate here is that when the simple minded run out of evidence they resort to fear.

What this tells me is that if I want to be a Christian I need to be an idiot and live my life in fear.

No thanks!!!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

So you think it's a virtue to be simple minded?

What you demonstrate here is that when the simple minded run out of evidence they resort to fear.

What this tells me is that if I want to be a Christian I need to be an idiot and live my life in fear.

No thanks!!!

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."Matthew 18:3 KJV

Your derisive twisting of what was said doesn't change the facts. To accept the only One Who was willing to die for you and is preparing a place for you beyond your wildest dreams, and exchange it for a deceiving pipe dream of willing slavery to one's self and the master of deceit that lasts but the short span of a limited lifetime, doesn't make one appear wise except in their own eyes.

However all have been given freedom by the Creator, to choose their own master.

"And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”"

Joshua 24:15 NKJV

To fear what one has the choice to avoid, in place of what is inevitable to occur neither seems wise nor prudent.

God cares!

[phkrause]

I thank God everyday that I'm simple minded, its definitely a virtue in my eyes. I could be deaf and dumb, and than what?

[cardw]

Quote:

LifeHiscost

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."Matthew 18:3 KJV

Your derisive twisting of what was said doesn't change the facts. To accept the only One Who was willing to die for you and is preparing a place for you beyond your wildest dreams, and exchange it for a deceiving pipe dream of willing slavery to one's self and the master of deceit that lasts but the short span of a limited lifetime, doesn't make one appear wise except in their own eyes.

However all have been given freedom by the Creator, to choose their own master.

All this appeal to simple-mindedness is a way to keep people from asking questions.

It's a way to defend things that have no basis and to keep people in control.

I happened to enjoy being self-possessed and I enjoy living my life free from the fear of imaginary gods.

[Igakusei]

If you are right in your summation, in the end will never be able to boast of those highly intelligent conclusions. Those of the simple minds, as of a child, if right will walk on the streets of gold, sharing the love and joy meant for all but sorrowfully received only by those who recognize their limitations.

There are a few problems with phrasing this like a simple either-or choice. If you're going to willfully remain simple-minded and just accept what religion tells you on faith, then you're actually probably in really bad trouble.

For example, you might end up in a Muslim or Catholic version of Hell for following the wrong god and putting faith in a false prophet. What if the only after life there is exists only for people who think for themselves? I could "what if" all day, and the only way to be able to dig through all the options with any kind of reliability is to learn how to use that brain you were born with.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

"Behold [says the prophet, listen to the voice of] the cry of the daughter of my people [for help] because of those who dwell in a far country: Is not the Lord in Zion? Is not her King in her? [but the Lord answers] Why have they provoked Me to anger with their carved images and with foreign idols?

The harvest is past, the summer has ended and the gathering of fruit is over, yet we are not saved! [comes again the voice of the people.]"Jeremiah 8:19-21 AMP

"And by unlimited seduction to evil and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing (going to perdition) because they did not receive a love of the Truth but refused to love it that they might be saved."2 Thessalonians 2:10 AMP

"And my righteous ones will live by faith.

But I will take no pleasure in anyone who turns away.

”But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction. We are the faithful ones, whose souls will be saved."Hebrews 10:39 NLT

I see a distinction between two groups. Perhaps it might be typified by these also.

"Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”"Matthew 13:30 NKJV

God cares!

And we can add to that "Free will" - given to both the loyal angels and to the angels that made poor choices as well as to Adam and Eve and to each one of us.

God is responsible for the fact that we are informed about the issues - we are responsible for our own choices.

If we turn a blind eye to the problem and simply run off the cliff like so many evolutionist lemmings --- then so be it. But we need not blindly follow such evolutionist mythologies over the Bible.

We can all see that blind faith evolutionism is the only religion left to the one who rejects the God of the Bible. (Just as Darwin, Dawkins, Provine, Meyers et al. have stated). So that part is easy.

Pascal's wager points to the logic of accepting the God of the Bible rather than embracing "hole in the ground" as one's highest concepts and goals.

in Christ,

Bob