Eternal Life

[BobRyan]

It seems to me that one of the biggest draws of Christianity is the promise of eternal life.

I often wonder why people would want that. On the surface it seems so attractive, but when you stop and think about it I can't see it being that great after the first couple thousand years. Thing is there will be nothing new after a period of time. There will be no marriage, there will be no babies, just the same chosen people. I often heard that as a young SDA that we will have the universe to explore if we are saved. But even that would come to an end at some point........... then what? Think about it - eternity! No end ever. With nothing new ever. I see that as really depressing actually.

So then a vast universe and zillions of years needed to explore it - and your point is "yet but what do we do after that"??

Really?

in Christ,

Bob

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Gail

My experience here in this life has been that praise is evoked after a revelation of God's love. When I experience an answer to prayer or a comfort from a fitting Scripture or someone else's joy, THEN it is that the praises come.

In earthly terms, we are sometimes moved to admire those who are truly noble or those who have been courageous. That is a but an example of the life of a Christian, who experiences those "wow" moments daily.

I totally understand where you are coming from with those WOW moments. I have them a great deal as well.

My comment to Ted is based in that the Christian God is one that demands praise, demands worship. So I can't see eternity with him being any different than that.

For the record - I am not calling down the Christian point of view here - I am jsut trying to understand it. It is one of the things that bothered me about Christianity even in my earliest memories. Something even as a really little kid I could just not accept.

Well, MT, it does pain me to know your experience has left you with this state. I would venture to say, though, God is not the issue - people are the issue. To be truthful, God and I have gone many rounds. Yes, the clay dared to say to the potter, "Why am I being used like this?" Those times are getting much more rarer, because I leave people out of the equation, doing this one-on-one with God.

He is patient. Patient enough to put up with me. Allowing me to run my course; then, when I am at the point where I can protest no more, He calmly goes over the issue. His love has won me over every time - not by dictating to me, but by winning my heart when embroiled in times of conflict and ignorance. And yes, there are times when He has not told me the why of it all - to teach me love must also trust.

I have come to know He doesn't demand worship or praise. Love response cannot be forced by dictate, they come only when volunteered by the beloved.

That's just my experience, MT. I can only pray that one day, that can be your understanding and experience as well.

Blessings,

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

It seems to me that one of the biggest draws of Christianity is the promise of eternal life.

I often wonder why people would want that. On the surface it seems so attractive, but when you stop and think about it I can't see it being that great after the first couple thousand years. Thing is there will be nothing new after a period of time. There will be no marriage, there will be no babies, just the same chosen people. I often heard that as a young SDA that we will have the universe to explore if we are saved. But even that would come to an end at some point........... then what? Think about it - eternity! No end ever. With nothing new ever. I see that as really depressing actually.

So then a vast universe and zillions of years needed to explore it - and your point is "yet but what do we do after that"??

Really?

in Christ,

Bob

Yes really. And its even more than zillions of years Bob. Zillions does not even scratch the surface of eternity. I sometimes wonder if people really get the magnitude of eternity.

[M. T. Cross]

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

It seems to me that one of the biggest draws of Christianity is the promise of eternal life.

I often wonder why people would want that. On the surface it seems so attractive, but when you stop and think about it I can't see it being that great after the first couple thousand years. Thing is there will be nothing new after a period of time. There will be no marriage, there will be no babies, just the same chosen people. I often heard that as a young SDA that we will have the universe to explore if we are saved. But even that would come to an end at some point........... then what? Think about it - eternity! No end ever. With nothing new ever. I see that as really depressing actually.

So then a vast universe and zillions of years needed to explore it - and your point is "yet but what do we do after that"??

Really?

[M. T. Cross]

in your "I have figured out eternity and it is boring" theme.

in Christ,

Bob

You show me where I said that at all Bob and then we can continue this conversation. I have never said I figured out eternity, as a matter of fact I said we can not even begin to fathom it. I am pointing out that for some it could get boring yes - after all their areas of interest had been explored. No everyone is into the idea of exploring the universe. Not unless we all give up our individuality and become clone like creatures that all share the same interests.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I have come to know He doesn't demand worship or praise. Love response cannot be forced by dictate, they come only when volunteered by the beloved.

That's just my experience

Nice testimony, Ted!

[Gerr]

Thanks, Windsor. I was thinking of the last chapter in the GC, and also this from Education.

- The School of the HereafterHeaven is a school; its field of study, the universe; its teacher, the Infinite One. A branch of this school was established in Eden; and, the plan of redemption accomplished, education will again be taken up in the Eden school. {Ed 301.1}

There, when the veil that darkens our vision shall be removed, and our eyes shall behold that world of beauty of which we now catch glimpses through the microscope; when we look on the glories of the heavens, now scanned afar through the telescope; when, the blight of sin removed, the whole earth shall appear in "the beauty of the Lord our God," what a field will be open to our study! There the student of science may read the records of creation and discern no reminders of the law of evil. He may listen to the music of nature’s voices and detect no note of wailing or undertone of sorrow. In all created things he may trace one handwriting--in the vast universe behold "God’s name writ large," and not in earth or sea or sky one sign of ill remaining. {Ed 303.4}

There the Eden life will be lived, the life in garden and field. "They shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall [bEGIN P.304] not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of My people, and Mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands." Isaiah 65:21, 22. {Ed 303.5}

There will be open to the student, history of infinite scope and of wealth inexpressible. Here, from the vantage ground of God’s word, the student is afforded a view of the vast field of history and may gain some knowledge of the principles that govern the course of human events. But his vision is still clouded, and his knowledge incomplete. Not until he stands in the light of eternity will he see all things clearly. {Ed 304.2}

There we shall know even as also we are known. There the loves and sympathies that God has planted in the soul will find truest and sweetest exercise. The pure communion with holy beings, the harmonious social life with the blessed angels and with the faithful ones of all ages, the sacred fellowship that binds together "the whole family in heaven and earth"--all are among the experiences of the hereafter. [bEGIN P.307] {Ed 306.2}

There will be music there, and song, such music and song as, save in the visions of God, no mortal ear has heard or mind conceived. {Ed 307.1}

There every power will be developed, every capability increased. The grandest enterprises will be carried forward, the loftiest aspirations will be reached, the highest ambitions realized. And still there will arise new heights to surmount, new wonders to admire, new truths to comprehend, fresh objects to call forth the powers of body and mind and soul. {Ed 307.4}

All the treasures of the universe will be open to the study of God’s children. With unutterable delight we shall enter into the joy and the wisdom of unfallen beings. We shall share the treasures gained through ages upon ages spent in contemplation of God’s handiwork. And the years of eternity, as they roll, will continue to bring more glorious revelations. "Exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think" (Ephesians 3:20) will be, forever and forever, the impartation of the gifts of God. {Ed 307.5}

Yeah, EC, I've wondered many times if we'd ever become bored in heaven. No more football, basketball, baseball, etc. etc.

But look at all the possibilities. I'll have all the time in the universe to learn to play every instrument known in the universe! Every faculty developed to the fullest. And I'll have the best stereo system God could make in the whole universe!

[debbym]

Quote:

from what I have experienced and seen of your God - he would likely want nothing more than to have everyone sitting about singing his praise for all of eternity.

let me share a little bit about how amazing and deep my God is.

He created all the colors and flowers and fragrances and flavors, then designed the eye and nose and mouth to experience them. he said it was good.

He designed the man and then the woman to fully experience and love each other and then grow together. we will have male and female intimacy in heaven. Intimacy will be in heaven.

He created all the galaxies and stars and worlds with varied life in them. we will be able to comprehend the vastness and travel to all ends of the universe and all the other dimensions as well.

He created music then angels who compose new music for every new and wondrous occasion. we will compose music and have angel concerts and learn new forms of music still being invented and created. we will able to compose and create new music among many other new things.

His own heart deep and full, created hearts that feel and fathom and love with an eternally increasing capacity to give and receive greater and greater love.

At his right hand are pleasures ever more, but none are selfish, self serving, or impure, but elevating and ennobling.

We will be able to have an endless and deepening satisfaction in who we are and have the capacity to be intimate with billions and not forget one detail.

Then there are those things that have not entered into our hearts. perhaps we will participate in think tanks and contribute to the designs of new creations.

all with no hatred, controlling, no death, sorrow, pain, despair. just health and energy and tirelessness, and aspirations. real freedom.

i could go on,

debbym

[Windsor]

Is that a quote from EGW`s The Great Controversy or your own thoughts Windsor. Just the way you posted it made it hard to tell and I wanted to be sure before crafting my response.

I was quoting from the last chapter of the Great Controversy.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Ok so after the trillions of bazillions of years that it would take us to fully understand everything about life on this one planet - lets say we go to another one.

And then another one.

You're telling us that you have worked all that out and then found a place of boredom.

Really?

I mean we all get that infinity is infinitely larger than any large number.

But that also means that infinite wise all-knowing God will always be infinitely wiser than all the intelligent life of finite years that He has created - in all of time.

So having someone around that infinitely more information, more wisdom more understanding than you or I at every point in our finite time line - needs to be taken into account

in your "I have figured out eternity and it is boring" theme.

You show me where I said that ... I am pointing out that for some it could get boring yes - after all their areas of interest had been explored.

Really??

[fccool]

The idea is not very well thought through. It's actually explored a bit in the "Tuck Everlasting" book.

Death is what makes our lives meaningful. The progression between birth-death is what makes the great cycle of generational "evolution"... not in the genetic sense, but the evolution of knowledge and experience that leaves certain choices for each and every individual to explore.

Living forever is not an attractive proposition in context that it is presented by Christians - "all of your problems will be taken care of". Life is an experience of creative problem-solving to make life better. That's what makes life meaningful. If you don't have any problems to solve, and your only problem is which planet you will fly to explore, or which praises to sing to God, or which new food to taste... it becomes boring fairly quickly... and "quickly" is a relative term in light of eternity. In light of eternity, a 100 trillion years if fairly quick!

In such context, there's no need for any new technology, which really only existed to facilitate production. There's no need for creative abilities, if everyone can with ease sing, or be a great painter etc. What makes these abilities notable is in fact that these take life-time to achieve and perfect. Given an eternity, one can master just about anything to the point that all people blob into the an agglomerate of clones of each other.

Christians generally don't think about these things. Consider what it would be like to live for a trillion years. Everything eventually looses the "newness" and meaning. It becomes an excessive experience. Imagine for a second the rollecoster ride. The first time is exciting. The second time is great. The third time it's common. The 50th time - it's a waste of time.

What's bad about death is not the inherent "badness", but the separation that we feel for a person. I've seen and talked to many of the mature people who were ready to die because they lived the life where their purpose has "expired", and they gave an opportunity for someone else to do the same. They didn't fear death. They've seen death as a natural end of their life.

At the center of Christian story there's the other side. There's a story of eternal God who incarnates himself in a human form and forget everything else for that moment in order to relate and experience certain things and complete a certain purpose through death.

I think a terrible way to die is the death that "hangs the experience" without you desiring to go yet. That's the death that people generally fear. Not the one dying of old age.

I think that side resonates on the deeper level with me as to who we really are. We are "eternal" in one way or another, but what matters is not the eternity. What matters is here and now - the experience that we get to enjoy, while we experience things for the first time.

Living in eternity would would get utterly boring and dull after several trillion years, I would imagine, especially if there were no problems to solve, and you've had "super-powers" to fly around to another planets by just thinking about it.

After-life is a silly idea at the core of it's meaning. Death is synonymous with the end of life. "Afterlife" is like saying after-end. What is there to look forward to after the story ends in satisfactory ending? You don't seek "after-end" after the credits roll in a good film that wraps up the story. You don't walk out of the theater saying "That film sucks, because it ended". Each film has a beginning and the end.

What makes film exciting is the experience that stems from coming from not knowing things, and then ending with certain realization. Once the experience ends and it ends right, there's nothing else to seek for further. If you have to watch a film for eternity, it will loose any meaning.

[JoeMo]

Interesting post, fc. You stated:

Quote:

but what matters is not the eternity. What matters is here and now - the experience that we get to enjoy, while we experience things for the first time.

I agree that the "here and now" is what matters. But isn't eternity just a continuum of "here and nows"? I'm rather old (mid-sixties); and there are things that I once always enjoyed; some of thise things I now always enjoy once. But as I lose the energy/strength needed to enjoy one activity, I can usually find another that is equally challenging and enjoyable. For example, I no longer find pleasure in running or lifting. So I do yoga now. I'm not as "big" or strong as I used to be; but my balance and flexibility are better than they ever have been - a good thing for a guy who's biggest fear is falling down hard.

I can't even imagine ever getting tired of playing my guitar and/or keyboard. I dread the day when my fingers and mind don't work together well enough to do that any more.

Oh to be forever young (and to know what I know now)! To be forever young and full of energy and curiosity - That's what eternity will be all about! I am persuaded that getting old and having our ideals and dreams crushed is what makes us bored with life. Remember when you were 21 and invincible? Can you imagine still being 21 and invincible with all the knowledge, experience, and self-control you have gained over the years?

[Gail]

Quote:

Oh to be forever young (and to know what I know now)! To be forever young and full of energy and curiosity - That's what eternity will be all about! I am persuaded that getting old and having our ideals and dreams crushed is what makes us bored with life. Remember when you were 21 and invincible? Can you imagine still being 21 and invincible with all the knowledge, experience, and self-control you have gained over the years?

I agree. Fccool, you are assuming that there will be nothing new. I am not convinced that will be the case :)

[Gerr]

It seems to me that one of the biggest draws of Christianity is the promise of eternal life.

I often wonder why people would want that. On the surface it seems so attractive, but when you stop and think about it I can't see it being that great after the first couple thousand years. Thing is there will be nothing new after a period of time. There will be no marriage, there will be no babies, just the same chosen people. I often heard that as a young SDA that we will have the universe to explore if we are saved. But even that would come to an end at some point........... then what? Think about it - eternity! No end ever. With nothing new ever. I see that as really depressing actually.

I want eternity because I've got so many things I want to do and so little time!!!

Physicists have been studying the atom for quite sometime. They understand and solve some mystery only to find another problem that challenges them. I have yet to hear one physicist say he is bored studying the atom. We have come a long way from Kepler's & Galileo's knowledge of the cosmos, yet how much do we really know? Since God is infinite, and His knowledge and power are infinite, He will ALWAYS have something to challenge His creatures.

[Gail]

Quote:

But look at all the possibilities. I'll have all the time in the universe to learn to play every instrument known in the universe! Every faculty developed to the fullest. And I'll have the best stereo system God could make in the whole universe!

Me, too! And languages- what DID that obscure Scripture mean as it was given?

[Gerr]

Hey, fc, you make some sublime statement like this:

Life is an experience of creative problem-solving to make life better. That's what makes life meaningful.

[color:blue]

and then negate them with a statement like this!

Originally Posted By: fccool

Death is what makes our lives meaningful.

You are getting me all confused!

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

I would ask why wouldn't one want to live forever? From what I see is that so many want just that, without the commitment.

Because after an amount of time it would just be existing, not living. It may take tens of thousands of years to reach that point, but at some point one would have seen and experienced everything. Then what? You could say that we could just sit back and enjoy - that might be good for a couple thousand more years but after a while it seems to me that it would just get really really boring.

Who says? You? How do you know that? Do you realize the depth into which you could study any subject you wanted to? How about all the different worlds, possibly millions, you could visit and study? That plus the plan of redemption. I mean to really understand it how Christ could be God and man at the same time, and to learn about how God influenced and changed each of us. What about human nature itself?

The number of subjects to study is almost infinite. The miracle of creation itself? I don't see how tedium would be possible.

[M. T. Cross]

let me share a little bit about how amazing and deep my God is.

He created all the colors and flowers and fragrances and flavors, then designed the eye and nose and mouth to experience them. he said it was good.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Is that a quote from EGW`s The Great Controversy or your own thoughts Windsor. Just the way you posted it made it hard to tell and I wanted to be sure before crafting my response.

I was quoting from the last chapter of the Great Controversy.

Fair enough, and I don`t want you to think I ignored your post, but I in the interest of respect for this board have no response that would be appropriate for public viewing.

[M. T. Cross]

Who says? You? How do you know that? Do you realize the depth into which you could study any subject you wanted to? How about all the different worlds, possibly millions, you could visit and study? That plus the plan of redemption. I mean to really understand it how Christ could be God and man at the same time, and to learn about how God influenced and changed each of us. What about human nature itself?

The number of subjects to study is almost infinite. The miracle of creation itself? I don't see how tedium would be possible.

Yes me, I said it. But I say it for me - then I ask you all your view of it. I ask why you want it, I ask if you really think there is enough things to keep you interested FOREVER. Then I challenge your responses to see if you have really thought it through.

Nowhere have I stated that you, pk, Gerry, Gail, Windsor, Joe, or anyone else should not want it. I just want to understand why. My style is to ask questions, and since I think good answers should stir up more questions I ask them. If I was to meet your God I would have about 3 questions for him and he would likely zap me out of existence for them. But even if he answered them, I still can`t see wanting to live forever. Not when everything I value seems to be a sin according to so many of his followers. Oh and yes they all have a verse or 10 from his book to back up why its a sin. How Christ could be both a god and man does not really confuse me at all btw.

[Windsor]

If life was just a continuation of how things are now, I would not be interested in eternal life. I wonder how the antediluvians were able to bear such long lives. But I don't believe life will be like it is now. For one, we will have eternal communion with our Creator. Take into account that God is infinite in knowledge, power and even presence and we are finite; hence, no matter how much time goes on, we will never develop even a fraction of His knowledge. We will still only be brushing the surface. 500 million divided by infinity is still zero.

[Kevin H]

It seems to me that one of the biggest draws of Christianity is the promise of eternal life.

I often wonder why people would want that. On the surface it seems so attractive, but when you stop and think about it I can't see it being that great after the first couple thousand years. Thing is there will be nothing new after a period of time. There will be no marriage, there will be no babies, just the same chosen people. I often heard that as a young SDA that we will have the universe to explore if we are saved. But even that would come to an end at some point........... then what? Think about it - eternity! No end ever. With nothing new ever. I see that as really depressing actually.

First of all complaining about no marriage or no babies is like a child complaining about growing up and having to sleep with his wife instead of his teddy bear. There is debate about no babies, the strongest argument I heard against it is that they would have to choose and not living through the Great Controversy would not be able to make the choice. However God is the creator and the one who made sex and who used sex for a steping stone towards something even greater.

Second, if we are truely focusing on what is important, our friendships and relationships with others and our personal growth, eternity is just one day at a time of knowing that Grandma and Grandpa will be there to visit, to spend time with Mom and Dad, taking family vacations with them not needing to use the humaround or wheelchair and never needing to send flowers to their graves. Enjoying time with them, and making many more friends. Getting to know many Great grandparents and cousins. Simply a day by day enjoyment of their friendship without ever having to say "Good-bye" again. And there will always be things to study and learn and we will constantly grow. I'm sorry but this is very attractive and not boreing to me.

[fccool]

Quote:

I agree that the "here and now" is what matters. But isn't eternity just a continuum of "here and nows"?

I was talking about the "here and now" as the only certain chance you'll have at human experience - the period of human life.

Quote:

I agree. Fccool, you are assuming that there will be nothing new. I am not convinced that will be the case

I'm not merely assuming that there will be nothing new. "New" is a subjective idea. Over-saturated experience tends to diminish any "newness" of similar experience. The new experience does not merely have to be new, but progressively better, because better things diminish the "new things".

There's no such thing as "progressively better" in perfection. When everything is perfect, there's no need... to do anything. Everything looses a sense of purpose. Sure, there's more time to gain knowledge, but what for? Human knowledge here and now is to improve our lives and solve problems. For what purpose would improving human knowledge be in scenario of eternal bliss? There's no purpose to know. Sure, you can stand in amazement of God's ability to create, but even then gets old. Try reading a famous classic trillion times, and see how that works out for you .

Eternal existence is void of meaning IMO.

[M. T. Cross]

If life was just a continuation of how things are now, I would not be interested in eternal life. I wonder how the antediluvians were able to bear such long lives. But I don't believe life will be like it is now. For one, we will have eternal communion with our Creator. Take into account that God is infinite in knowledge, power and even presence and we are finite; hence, no matter how much time goes on, we will never develop even a fraction of His knowledge. We will still only be brushing the surface. 500 million divided by infinity is still zero.

But we would no longer be finite correct?