Did Ellen White's ministry INCLUDE the work of a PROPHET?

[BobRyan]

The question is not whether you accept her as a prophet - the question is whether she claimed that her work INCLUDED the work of a prophet?

Since the statement was made recently that some here are unclear as to whether Ellen White herself understood that her ministry included that of a prophet - I offer some historic data.

God says in Numbers 12:6 "IF there is a prophet among you I will communicate with them by dream or vision"

Quote:

God has made plain to me the various ways in which He would use me to carry forward a special work. Visions have been given me, with the promise, “If you deliver the messages faithfully and endure to the end, you shall eat of the fruit of the tree of life, and drink of the water of the river of life.” {1SM 33.1}

I am now instructed that I am not to be hindered in my work by those who engage in suppositions regarding its nature, whose minds are struggling with so many intricate problems connected with the supposed work of a prophet. My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there. It embraces much more than the minds of those who have been sowing the seeds of unbelief can comprehend.—Letter 244, 1906. (Addressed to elders of Battle Creek church.) {1SM 36.2}

You have doubted the Testimonies. When you come back and gather up the rays of light, and take the position that the Testimonies are from God, then you will be settled in your belief and will not thus waver in darkness and weakness. {4T 53.2}

“Be not afraid of man, for My shield shall protect you. It is not you that speaketh: it is the Lord that giveth the messages of warning and reproof. Never deviate from the truth under any circumstances. Give the light I shall give you. The messages for these last days shall be written in books, and shall stand immortalized, to testify against those who have once rejoiced in the light, but who have been led to give it up because of the seductive influences of evil.” {1SM 32.3}

Selected Messages, book 1, p. 34. To claim to be a prophetess is something that I have never done. If others call me by that name, I have no controversy with them. But my work has covered so many lines that I cannot call myself other than a messenger, sent to bear a message from the Lord to His people, and to take up work in any line that He points out.”

As inquiries are frequently made as to my state in vision, and after I come out, I would say that when the Lord sees fit to give a vision, I am taken into the presence of Jesus and angels, and am entirely lost to earthly things. I can see no farther than the angel directs me. My attention is often directed to scenes transpiring upon earth. {1SM 36.3}

At times I am carried far ahead into the future and shown what is to take place. Then again I am shown things as they have occurred in the past. After I come out of vision I do not at once remember all that I have seen, and the matter is not so clear before me until I write, then the scene rises before me as was presented in vision, and I can write with freedom. Sometimes the things which I have seen are hid from me after I come out of vision, and I cannot call them to mind until I am brought before a company where that vision applies, then the things which I have seen come to my mind with force. I am just as dependent upon the Spirit of the Lord in relating or writing a vision, as in having the vision. It is impossible for me to call up things which have been shown me unless the Lord brings them before me at the time that He is pleased to have me relate or write them.—Spiritual Gifts 2:292, 293 (1860). {1SM 36.4}

My brethren, beware of the evil heart of unbelief. The word of God is plain and close in its restrictions; it interferes with your selfish indulgence; therefore you do not obey it. The testimonies of His Spirit call your attention to the Scriptures, point out your defects of character, and rebuke your sins; therefore you do not heed them. And to justify your carnal, ease-loving course you begin to doubt whether the testimonies are from God. If you would obey their teachings you would be assured of their divine origin. Remember, your unbelief does not affect their truthfulness. If they are from God they will stand. Those who seek to lessen the faith of God’s people in these testimonies, which have been in the church for the last thirty-six years, are fighting against God. It is not the instrument whom you slight and insult, but God, who has spoken to you in these warnings and reproofs. {5T 234.3}

It takes very little time to see that Ellen White was claiming all the "dreams and visions" and the "this message is straight from God" claims as any prophet you may care to name.

James 2 said "HE who said do not commit adultery ALSO said - do not murder" -- James argues that authority is based on the "he who said" (GOD) not on the person speaking.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

Most certainly - that was a part of her office.

[Gibs]

Here is a little testimony from her of her calling,

" "One stood by my side and said: 'God has raised you up and has given you words to speak to the people and to reach hearts as He has given to no other one. He has shaped your testimonies to meet cases that are in need of help. You must be unmoved by scorn, derision, reproach, and censure. In order to be God's special instrument you should lean to no one, but hang upon Him alone and, like the clinging vine, let your tendrils entwine about Him. He will make you a means through which to communicate His light to the people. You must daily gather strength from God in order to be fortified, that your surroundings may not dim or eclipse the light that He has permitted to shine upon His people through you. It is Satan's special object to prevent this light from coming to the people of God, who so greatly need it amid the perils of these last days. {5T 667.2}

"'Your success is in your simplicity. As soon as you depart from this and fashion your testimony to meet the minds of any, your power is gone. Almost everything in this age is glossed and unreal. The world abounds in testimonies given to please and charm for the moment and to exalt self. Your testimony is of a different character. It is to come down to the minutiae of life, keeping the feeble faith from dying and pressing home upon believers the necessity of shining as lights in the world. {5T 667.3}

Her work was more than a prophet, she was a teacher, a teacher of the Truth, and not the glossed fable stuff preached popularly everywhere.

Her writings beat any and all commentaries of men.

Without her guidance the church has the march stolen on her by Satan.

The end is very near? Will she be righted? I Wish! And I pray, but is it His Will?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[phkrause]

Great post Bob. I would imagine it had to be hard for her, I know I probably could not of done what she did.

[BobRyan]

I agree that it was a tough job and she did it well. We can be thankful that she was faithful to her calling and that we all benefit from it.

in Christ,

Bob

[phkrause]

I agree that it was a tough job and she did it well. We can be thankful that she was faithful to her calling and that we all benefit from it.

in Christ,

Bob

[LoneRanger]

Hey, BobRyan. Would you like to start off?

[LoneRanger]

How 'bout we start by defining the question?

[Ted Oplinger]

I will honor her request and not call her anything more than she claimed to be - a messenger of our Lord.

Did her ministry include things a prophet experiences? Yes.

One the other hand, though, her work and ministry also include duties found within the apostolic gift.

While those with the prophetic gift do experience visions and write/speak them to those God wishes to communicate, the apostolic gift includes that and adds to it evangelism, extensive travel to establish missions/churches and/or lend critical leadership/support in newly established areas.

Ellen never made the claim to be anything more than a messenger of our Lord. She never claimed to be a prophet - but she would not rebuke someone else calling her that.

She certainly did not make the claim to be an apostle. With that declared, I have thought of her work with respect to what our Lord asked of Peter, John, and Paul...and I do see some very striking similarities and overlap of duties our Lord required of Ellen White.

Does that make her an apostle? No, that made her one very busy messenger of our Lord.

As Ellen White would not refute/rebuke one calling her a prophetess, so also one who knows they have been given the apostolic office do not deny it (as Paul declares his office in the opening of several of his epistles).

My thought is that with her words referencing her work to be "more than a prophet", her ministry lay somewhere between the offices of prophet and apostle, though she never lay claim to either of these.

She was...one very busy messenger of our Lord.

Blessings,

[LoneRanger]

Just kinda looking around for BobRyan. I was going to meet him here...

[BobRyan]

Hey, BobRyan. Would you like to start off?

Consider the opening post a start -

If Ellen White stated that her role included that of a prophet but then went on to "more than a prophet" - it brings us back to 1Thess 5:19-22 and Isaiah 30:8-14 in terms of what the Bible says about that particular spiritual gift and our obligation when God tells us something.

As for the gift itself - I notice that in 1Cor 12 - it is mentioned only once - there is only one gift. So that means we are not at liberty to come up with as many flavors as our preferences might wish to invent.

I think we can all see that point. So that is a good thing.

in Christ,

Bob

[phkrause]

Consider the opening post a start -

If Ellen White stated that her role included that of a prophet but then went on to "more than a prophet" - it brings us back to 1Thess 5:19-22 and Isaiah 30:8-14 in terms of what the Bible says about that particular spiritual gift and our obligation when God tells us something.

As for the gift itself - I notice that in 1Cor 12 - it is mentioned only once - there is only one gift. So that means we are not at liberty to come up with as many flavors as our preferences might wish to invent.

I think we can all see that point. So that is a good thing.

in Christ,

Bob

[LoneRanger]

Consider the opening post a start -

If Ellen White stated that her role included that of a prophet but then went on to "more than a prophet" - it brings us back to 1Thess 5:19-22 and Isaiah 30:8-14 in terms of what the Bible says about that particular spiritual gift and our obligation when God tells us something.

As for the gift itself - I notice that in 1Cor 12 - it is mentioned only once - there is only one gift. So that means we are not at liberty to come up with as many flavors as our preferences might wish to invent.

I think we can all see that point. So that is a good thing.

in Christ,

Bob

It seems that you are starting off with a few assumptions, namely that EGW IS a prophet (however one defines that term) and that she speaks for God and that there is only ONE interpretation for what she says.

Please comment and correct me if I'm wrong regarding the assumptions.

At any rate, I think we should back up several layers and start with what EGW's role actually was. We may have to re-define our question several times.

[BobRyan]

Consider the opening post a start -

If Ellen White stated that her role included that of a prophet but then went on to "more than a prophet" - it brings us back to 1Thess 5:19-22 and Isaiah 30:8-14 in terms of what the Bible says about that particular spiritual gift and our obligation when God tells us something.

As for the gift itself - I notice that in 1Cor 12 - it is mentioned only once - there is only one gift. So that means we are not at liberty to come up with as many flavors as our preferences might wish to invent.

I think we can all see that point. So that is a good thing.

[LoneRanger]

Really not sure what you're saying here, Bob.

Here's the bottom line (for me).

Both the Bible and EGW are open to interpretation. We have no other way of looking at or understanding them. One person reads a statement one way and another reads the same statement another way. Every human approches everything from and in the context of their world view.

The real question is not what the Bible or EGW says, but how we understand what the Bible or EGW says.

Which leads directly to the question of "Who has authority to interpret Scripture?" (or EGW, for some people) Personally, I don't "interpret" EGW or do "exegesis" on her writings. That time is much better spent trying to understand the Bible.

Some of her writings are inspired*, some are just writing, and some are just plain wrong.

*This term needs defining.

[BobRyan]

As noted in my prior post - you might find 2 Peter 1:20-21 instructive on that point. The idea of each person simply making up whatever they wish is rejected by Peter in 2Peter 1:20-21 "No prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation".

Yet I certainly agree with you that each person does have the free will to make up whatever they wish when they read the writings of the prophets - no matter if it is the Bible or the writings of Ellen White. The debate is not over each person's ability to make stuff up. I think we all agree that such a capability does exist.

This is why I point to simple examples of it - such as the case with the Bible speaking about the Seventh-day Sabbath. As you point out in your "To each his own" statement above - our Baptist friends would simply say that we do not have the "authority to interpret scripture" the way that we do - certainly not in their view.

Your statement that you reject the objective method of exegesis (which is all we actually have to correct/compensate for the sinful human tendency of bias over God's message to us) speaks volumes.

I appreciate your willingness to admit to this up front.

This brings up the question of just how you imagine our evangelistic programs and Bible studies to work when we are studying with sincere devoted Catholics, Baptist, Methodists and pursing an Acts 17:11 "Sola Scriptura" approach to each doctrine. Do you imagine that the Bible study just asks them "to make up the same stuff we are making up concerning these texts no matter how it differs with your present denomination, or puts you at odds with your own family, friends , or causes your job to be at risk"??? -- and then on a lark "they do it"??!

When protesting Catholics were choosing to be burned at the stake in the dark ages rather than submit to some difference of "interpretation" when it came to church teaching cutting across the statements in the Bible - was it really just their devotion to some fickle individualism imagining their own interpretation against the established church -- as the Catholic church maintained?

Certainly I get that from the guys over there at Spectrum - but you don't see it outside of that conclave much.

(I find that so few of our own members attend these Bible studies that often they do not know how it works. )

How exactly do you suppose it works?

Apparently then you have some level of confusion on the Bible doctrine of the work of a prophet in general if you think you can simply pick and choose what you like. My pastor states some things from the pulpit that are spot on - and other things are just plain wrong.

Not a problem for a Pastor since he is not claiming that his sermon was given to Him by God via the supernatural direct mechanism of the gift of prophecy mentioned in Numbers 12 and in 1Cor 12.

But the Bible has a very specific teaching on the mechanism of prophecy, how it works and how it is tested. Not at all the same as picking and choosing from what your pastor says from the pulpit.

Notice that the work of a prophet in 1Cor 12 holds a certain level - even above that of a Pastor - far above someone "just saying whatever happens to come to mind" the way you appear to assume it works.

Clearly we differ at that point.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I have attended several Sabbath School classes in our universities where the teacher was associated with the university Administration or Faculty and seemed to content themselves with a class full of "I think, well I imagine this,... well I think that...".

A somewhat pointless bible-uninformed exercise based on every wind of doctrine being the thought of the day - and "whatever tickles the ears" as the idea that wins the day.

I notice that we see that same sort of thing from time to time even outside of certain Sabbath School classes in certain of our universities.

Hopefully we can all agree to learn from those who have made mistakes in the past and avoid such pitfalls.

in Christ,

Bob

[LoneRanger]

Sadly, I do not feel as though you are trying to understand my point of view. I feel as though you are picking a statement and taking it to a conclusion I never intended.

To say that people come to different conclusions IS NOT the same as saying you can interpret the passage any way you want.

Rather, what I'm saying on that point is that dedicated Bible students, prayerfully studying the Bible and asking God for inlightenment, in all sincerity, come to different conclusions. Sometimes WIDELY different conclusions.

Unless and until we discuss our differences in a respectful atmosphere, giving each other the latitude to hold divergent views, we will not have meaningful dialogue.

[JoeMo]

LoneRanger,

I am blessed by your openness, candidness, and objectivity. I'm glad you joined CA. On the surface, you and I think a lot alike. If that is true, don't expect to win any debates with certain people. Also, don't expect to see friendly, objective discussion - expect to see subtle condescening, cajoling, and sometimes personal attack. I pray that you and Bob may have ameaningful discussion that does not devolve into him just implying that you must be an infidel (or are you a heretic?)

For the record, I agree with everything that you have posted thus far.

[LoneRanger]

Sadly (again) I believe you are right about the nature of the responses. Knowing that, I shall not invest a lot of energy without some kind of meaningful feedback.

Regarding your other question, I have been called both at various times. Perhaps a more descriptive term would be "infitic", or maybe "heredel"

BTW, Lovin' the inclusion over at "Club Heretic." EmptyCross isn't going to know what to do with all the company.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Lovin' the inclusion over at "Club Heretic." EmptyCross isn't going to know what to do with all the company.

You're a hoot, LR!

[BobRyan]

Sadly, I do not feel as though you are trying to understand my point of view. I feel as though you are picking a statement and taking it to a conclusion I never intended.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Consider the opening post a start -

If Ellen White stated that her role included that of a prophet but then went on to "more than a prophet" - it brings us back to 1Thess 5:19-22 and Isaiah 30:8-14 in terms of what the Bible says about that particular spiritual gift and our obligation when God tells us something.

As for the gift itself - I notice that in 1Cor 12 - it is mentioned only once - there is only one gift. So that means we are not at liberty to come up with as many flavors as our preferences might wish to invent.

I think we can all see that point. So that is a good thing.

in Christ,

Bob

Nice of you to see the point and affirm it.

Thanks.

Have to do that to maintain the happy-thread motif we have today - and glad to do it as well.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

LR - the fact that we do not agree on every single idea - does not mean that we cannot choose to discuss points where we differ. Both can be done with ease. It just takes practice to disagree in a calm fashion letting the facts speak for themselves.

My objective here is not to convince you to stop doing whatever you may choose to do. I strongly affirm free will.

My objective is to let the facts come out for the benefit of our unbiased objective readers.

At one time I was pretty vocal over at Spectrum that they find some people who would join me in posting that we thought it was downright wrong to torture or exterminate those who do not happen to share our own views on doctrine.

Got the Spectrum guys pretty upset that I would dare to ask for such a joint statement on so basic a question.

However I think people on this board are more open to that idea.

in Christ,

Bob

[JoeMo]

This is one of those general subjects that has been bantered about on various threads since I joined CA. After reading what I estimate to be over a thousand posts, no one has ever changed anyone's mind on the subject. I honestly don't think anyone could ever convince me otherwise (except the Holy Spirit - and I don't discount that possibility). I also do not disrespect those who sincerely believe that EGW is everything that traditional church culture says she is. I just don't see the verification in scripture of some of her stuff.

I don't think having a difference of opinion on this impacts our unity as brothers and sisters in Christ. I see it making a difference in our uniformity; but I think we are still all united on spreading the Kingdom gospel to everyone on earth.