Did Ellen White's ministry INCLUDE the work of a PROPHET?

[skyblue888]

Is not the Bible its own interpreter and are not the writings of Ellen White their own interpreters?

"The Testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given as Scripture is explained by Scripture." Selected Messages, Vol.1,42.

We are to compare statement with statement and Scripture with Scripture and the Holy Spirit must be out Teacher.

sky

[LoneRanger]

BobRyan, I just really don't have the energy to keep re-explaining myself to someone who (intentionally or otherwise) distorts the intent of my comments.

As JoeMo pointed out, and as I have experienced in the past, discussions that start this way are usually not profitable.

[LoneRanger]

Is not the Bible its own interpreter

[BobRyan]

Is not the Bible its own interpreter and are not the writings of Ellen White their own interpreters?

"The Testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given as Scripture is explained by Scripture." Selected Messages, Vol.1,42.

We are to compare statement with statement and Scripture with Scripture and the Holy Spirit must be out Teacher.

sky

Amen and Amen!

Well said!

Easy concepts to read and to accept.

Another warm fuzzy - fun-day-on-the-board emoticon time.

Ahhh yes - what a lovely board we have today.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Here is a little testimony from her of her calling,

" "One stood by my side and said: 'God has raised you up and has given you words to speak to the people and to reach hearts as He has given to no other one. He has shaped your testimonies to meet cases that are in need of help. You must be unmoved by scorn, derision, reproach, and censure. In order to be God's special instrument you should lean to no one, but hang upon Him alone and, like the clinging vine, let your tendrils entwine about Him. He will make you a means through which to communicate His light to the people. You must daily gather strength from God in order to be fortified, that your surroundings may not dim or eclipse the light that He has permitted to shine upon His people through you. It is Satan's special object to prevent this light from coming to the people of God, who so greatly need it amid the perils of these last days. {5T 667.2}

...

Her work was more than a prophet, she was a teacher, a teacher of the Truth, and not the glossed fable stuff preached popularly everywhere.

Her writings beat any and all commentaries of men.

Isn't that "just the way it goes" with prophets according to the Bible.

Ahh yes - "Give me the Bible AND the words IN the Bible" - that is the true spirit of the matter as stated above.

Again - group time.

[BobRyan]

Most certainly - that was a part of her office.

I just knew we were leaving someone out..

So I came back to this thread to see who it was that spoke out in affirmation of Fundamental Belief 18 - and yet was not mentioned in my responses so far --

Welcome to the group Woody!

[BobRyan]

I will honor her request and not call her anything more than she claimed to be - a messenger of our Lord.

Did her ministry include things a prophet experiences? Yes.

One the other hand, though, her work and ministry also include duties found within the apostolic gift.

While those with the prophetic gift do experience visions and write/speak them to those God wishes to communicate, the apostolic gift includes that and adds to it evangelism, extensive travel to establish missions/churches and/or lend critical leadership/support in newly established areas.

Ellen never made the claim to be anything more than a messenger of our Lord.

[John317]

It seems that you are starting off with a few assumptions, namely that EGW IS a prophet (however one defines that term) and that she speaks for God and that there is only ONE interpretation for what she says.

Please comment and correct me if I'm wrong regarding the assumptions.

At any rate, I think we should back up several layers and start with what EGW's role actually was. We may have to re-define our question several times.

How about starting off with what she said about herself and her work?

For instance, what does this say--

Quote:

My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there. It embraces much more than the minds of those who have been sowing the seeds of unbelief can comprehend.—Letter 244, 1906. (Addressed to elders of Battle Creek church.) {1SM 36.2}

Also please tell us what you believe Ellen White is saying in the following statements:

Quote:

God has made plain to me the various ways in which He would use me to carry forward a special work. Visions have been given me, with the promise, “If you deliver the messages faithfully and endure to the end, you shall eat of the fruit of the tree of life, and drink of the water of the river of life.” {1SM 33.1}

I am now instructed that I am not to be hindered in my work by those who engage in suppositions regarding its nature, whose minds are struggling with so many intricate problems connected with the supposed work of a prophet. My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there. It embraces much more than the minds of those who have been sowing the seeds of unbelief can comprehend.—Letter 244, 1906. (Addressed to elders of Battle Creek church.) {1SM 36.2}

You have doubted the Testimonies. When you come back and gather up the rays of light, and take the position that the Testimonies are from God, then you will be settled in your belief and will not thus waver in darkness and weakness. {4T 53.2}

“Be not afraid of man, for My shield shall protect you. It is not you that speaketh: it is the Lord that giveth the messages of warning and reproof. Never deviate from the truth under any circumstances. Give the light I shall give you. The messages for these last days shall be written in books, and shall stand immortalized, to testify against those who have once rejoiced in the light, but who have been led to give it up because of the seductive influences of evil.” {1SM 32.3}

Selected Messages, book 1, p. 34. To claim to be a prophetess is something that I have never done. If others call me by that name, I have no controversy with them. But my work has covered so many lines that I cannot call myself other than a messenger, sent to bear a message from the Lord to His people, and to take up work in any line that He points out.”

As inquiries are frequently made as to my state in vision, and after I come out, I would say that when the Lord sees fit to give a vision, I am taken into the presence of Jesus and angels, and am entirely lost to earthly things. I can see no farther than the angel directs me. My attention is often directed to scenes transpiring upon earth. {1SM 36.3}

At times I am carried far ahead into the future and shown what is to take place. Then again I am shown things as they have occurred in the past. After I come out of vision I do not at once remember all that I have seen, and the matter is not so clear before me until I write, then the scene rises before me as was presented in vision, and I can write with freedom. Sometimes the things which I have seen are hid from me after I come out of vision, and I cannot call them to mind until I am brought before a company where that vision applies, then the things which I have seen come to my mind with force. I am just as dependent upon the Spirit of the Lord in relating or writing a vision, as in having the vision. It is impossible for me to call up things which have been shown me unless the Lord brings them before me at the time that He is pleased to have me relate or write them.—Spiritual Gifts 2:292, 293 (1860). {1SM 36.4}

My brethren, beware of the evil heart of unbelief. The word of God is plain and close in its restrictions; it interferes with your selfish indulgence; therefore you do not obey it. The testimonies of His Spirit call your attention to the Scriptures, point out your defects of character, and rebuke your sins; therefore you do not heed them. And to justify your carnal, ease-loving course you begin to doubt whether the testimonies are from God. If you would obey their teachings you would be assured of their divine origin. Remember, your unbelief does not affect their truthfulness. If they are from God they will stand. Those who seek to lessen the faith of God’s people in these testimonies, which have been in the church for the last thirty-six years, are fighting against God. It is not the instrument whom you slight and insult, but God, who has spoken to you in these warnings and reproofs. {5T 234.3}

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger

It seems that you are starting off with a few assumptions, namely that EGW IS a prophet (however one defines that term) and that she speaks for God and that there is only ONE interpretation for what she says.

Please comment and correct me if I'm wrong regarding the assumptions.

At any rate, I think we should back up several layers and start with what EGW's role actually was. We may have to re-define our question several times.

How about starting off with what she said about herself and her work?

For instance, what does this say--

Quote:

My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there. It embraces much more than the minds of those who have been sowing the seeds of unbelief can comprehend.—Letter 244, 1906. (Addressed to elders of Battle Creek church.) {1SM 36.2}

You want to know what that says? -- it "says it all"!

When studying doctrinal concepts such as the Bible teaching on prophecy and how it works - and who is making a claim to it -- "the details matter".

Just no way around it.

Thanks for noticing that.

And since this is the welcome and have a nice day thread - I say one more emoticon --

[JoeMo]

Hi John,

You asked Lone Ranger what he thought about a bunch of things EGW said about herself. I'm not speaking for LR, but it's all circular logic! It's like saying Ellen White is a prophet because the Spirit of Prophecy (aka Ellen White) said she was. I'm not disparaging her - many people say that the Bible is true because the people who wrote it said it was true. I CHOOSE to believe in what the Bible says because I have had personal experiences (real or imagined) that confirm what scripture says. Your own testimony backs up the power that scripture speaks of. But I just can't say the same thing about EGW. I find some of the stuff she says goes contrary from scripture. It's just my read of her. But I can't go as far as you go. I can accept that she has the NT gift of prophecy; but I can't even begin to believe her word has the same authority as scripture. If I can't confirm what EGW says in the bible, I question it.

[Woody]

Quote:

If I can't confirm what EGW says in the bible, I question it.

And SHE would be the first to agree with you JoeMO

[BobRyan]

Hi John,

You asked Lone Ranger what he thought about a bunch of things EGW said about herself. I'm not speaking for LR, but it's all circular logic! It's like saying Ellen White is a prophet because the Spirit of Prophecy (aka Ellen White) said she was.

[LoneRanger]

I'm not speaking for LR,

But ya did a heck of a job!

[LoneRanger]

[BobRyan]

Also please tell us what you believe Ellen White is saying in the following statements:

Quote:

God has made plain to me the various ways in which He would use me to carry forward a special work. Visions have been given me, with the promise, “If you deliver the messages faithfully and endure to the end, you shall eat of the fruit of the tree of life, and drink of the water of the river of life.” {1SM 33.1}

I am now instructed that I am not to be hindered in my work by those who engage in suppositions regarding its nature, whose minds are struggling with so many intricate problems connected with the supposed work of a prophet. My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there. It embraces much more than the minds of those who have been sowing the seeds of unbelief can comprehend.—Letter 244, 1906. (Addressed to elders of Battle Creek church.) {1SM 36.2}

You have doubted the Testimonies. When you come back and gather up the rays of light, and take the position that the Testimonies are from God, then you will be settled in your belief and will not thus waver in darkness and weakness. {4T 53.2}

“Be not afraid of man, for My shield shall protect you. It is not you that speaketh: it is the Lord that giveth the messages of warning and reproof.

Amen John -

So then as God's own statement above says "do not be afraid of man".

I find it interesting that when a prophet AND Judge like Samuel is discouraged by what "man is saying against him" -- God tell's Samuel "it is not you they are rejecting -- it is me".

Certainly in Samuel's day those who opposed him could not deny the fact that God had given Samuel visions - but they found a way to whine and carp and complain - "anyway".

As Solomon noted - there is nothing new under the sun.

When we share our views with non-SDA objectors - they will sometimes show an actual interest "in the details" of what the Bible says on the subject and an interest in actual Bible study that goes well beyond the luke-warm Laodicean habits of some inside the SDA church.

But then... you probably already knew that.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

Hi John,

You asked Lone Ranger what he thought about a bunch of things EGW said about herself. I'm not speaking for LR, but it's all circular logic! It's like saying Ellen White is a prophet because the Spirit of Prophecy (aka Ellen White) said she was. I'm not disparaging her - many people say that the Bible is true because the people who wrote it said it was true.

Ellen White did claim that God gave her visions and dreams that Jesus Christ commissioned her to give to the church and the world.

She also claimed that she did not write her own opinions, but she wrote only what she had been shown by God to be true.

Was Ellen White honest, sincere, and dependable?

Was she a liar and attempting to deceive?

Was she crazy?

Or was she delusional, out of touch with reality?

She herself said that her work was either of God or of Satan. Her work can't be both.

You're right that Ellen White is not a true prophet merely because she made claims. If she was a true prophet, it is because what she wrote agrees with the Bible.

God gave us ways for testing whether someone is a true prophet or a false one.

Does Ellen White pass those Bible tests? If not, she is a false prophet. If she is indeed a false prophet, it means that the SDA church has been led by a false prophet from the beginning of its foundations to present day.

But if she does pass them, she is a true prophet, and we need to pay close attention and obey what God told us through her.

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

I CHOOSE to believe in what the Bible says because I have had personal experiences (real or imagined) that confirm what scripture says. Your own testimony backs up the power that scripture speaks of.

Ellen White herself said that if-- after you've thoroughly and prayerfully studied her writings and the Bible-- you find things in her writings that you sincerely and honestly believe contradict the Bible, you should go with the Bible. She never asked people to accept her writings over the Bible.

Originally Posted By: JoeMoe

But I just can't say the same thing about EGW. I find some of the stuff she says goes contrary from scripture. It's just my read of her. But I can't go as far as you go. I can accept that she has the NT gift of prophecy; but I can't even begin to believe her word has the same authority as scripture. If I can't confirm what EGW says in the bible, I question it.

What are some of the things you believe are contrary to Scripture?

It's good to talk these over with other SDAs because you may find out that the problem is with your understanding. Perhaps there are important things you're not considering.

As with the Bible, it may be that you need to keep studying a particular topic or question. When we do that, we usually find the solution to what appeared to be a problem.

[John317]

[JoeMo]

Quote:

As with the Bible, it may be that you need to keep studying a particular topic or question. When we do that, we usually find the solution to what appeared to be a problem.

And am I supposed to study SoP until I believe it? I've studied Sop along side the Bible long enough to not blindly accept the SoP - but to question certain parts of it. You recommend talking to other SDA's about it. Other SDA's are the very people who caused me to question the SoP to begin with. Until 12 years ago, I was a die-hard conservative thriving on EGW. So was everyone else in my social group. When I moved cross-country and began attending a new church, people began to challenge my position with questions I couldn't even begin to answer; no matter how much I studieD

As far as examples of things in SoP I question, I've delineated those in the past. Among them are:

- Application of the day-for-year principle to prophecies in Daniel and Revelation

- Insistence that the papacy/catholic church is the only possible fulfillment of antichrist/beast/false prophet/harlot/Babylon.

-Close of probation before Christ returns

-Millenium in heaven (rather than on earth

-End of sin upon Christ's second coming.

I repeat - I QUESTION these things (some of them strongly); I don't outright REJECT them. That being said, please don't post some huge long technical dissertation that some theology major wrote using the original Hebrew and greek for their Doctoral degree at an SDA theology school to convince me otherwise. If a post is larger than a page on my screen. I lose interest (my "old-timers" disease kicking in). Salvation shouldn't be that difficult or technical. Nor do I believe that blind acceptance of Sister White is a necessary prerequisite for salvation.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

Hi John,

You asked Lone Ranger what he thought about a bunch of things EGW said about herself. I'm not speaking for LR, but it's all circular logic! It's like saying Ellen White is a prophet because the Spirit of Prophecy (aka Ellen White) said she was. I'm not disparaging her - many people say that the Bible is true because the people who wrote it said it was true.

Ellen White did claim that God gave her visions and dreams that Jesus Christ commissioned her to give to the church and the world.

She also claimed that she did not write her own opinions, but she wrote only what she had been shown by God to be true.

Was Ellen White honest, sincere, and dependable?

Was she a liar and attempting to deceive?

Was she crazy?

Or was she delusional, out of touch with reality?

She herself said that her work was either of God or of Satan. Her work can't be both.

You're right that Ellen White is not a true prophet merely because she made claims. If she was a true prophet, it is because what she wrote agrees with the Bible.

God gave us ways for testing whether someone is a true prophet or a false one.

Does Ellen White pass those Bible tests? If not, she is a false prophet. If she is indeed a false prophet, it means that the SDA church has been led by a false prophet from the beginning of its foundations to present day.

Excellent points all!

Just as you cannot marry blind faith evolutionism to the Bible - so you cannot marry the "failed prophet" idea to a prophet as if - they remain as anything other than a false prophet.

As someone has noted here - they prefer to treat the writings of Ellen White as if she were no prophet at all - nothing more than an Andy Stanley or Charles Spurgeon writing without claiming any visions, or dreams directly from God -- just ideas for you to pick-and-choose the ones you like.

It is a nice sort of "alternate reality" that wishes to ignore all the pesky inconvenient details you listed above.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Quote:

As with the Bible, it may be that you need to keep studying a particular topic or question. When we do that, we usually find the solution to what appeared to be a problem.

And am I supposed to study SoP until I believe it? I've studied Sop along side the Bible long enough to not blindly accept the SoP - but to question certain parts of it.

No one is trying to take away your free will in that regard.

We are just pointing out the inconvenient Bible detail that your claims amount to the accusation that Ellen White is a false prophet.

Not a problem for many of our non-SDA friends - but a little unusual for SDAs.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gibs]

When EGW stated "I was shown" or "I saw", you had better sit up and pay attention.

Just beware of the many compilations that have been made and a paragraph or two the folks will pick out to solidify some belief they have, go and check the context where she wrote it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Just beware of the many compilations that have been made and a paragraph or two the folks will pick out to solidify some belief they have, go and check the context where she wrote it.

Double Amen for that Gibs - I mean that sincerely! The compilations have always been a big problem for me - even when I was in the camp that considered EGW's writings to be on par with scripture.

BobRyan,

You can accuse me (or imply) that I am some half-baked Adventist all you want. I hope and pray that I never sound as condescending and subtly judgmental as you sound. In spite of what you might think, Jesus loves me and wants me in heaven just as much as He loves and wants you there. He's not gonna stand at the judgement bar and question either of us concerning our opinion of Ellen White before giving us our crowns. And He's not gonna prefer Adventists over those "non-Adventist" Baptists and Catholics.

I think that is something we can all agree on.

Have a great Sabbath.

[phkrause]

Well the compilations are still from her original writings? Are they not? The problem I see with them, is they are being taken out of context and than being used to either clobber you over the head or some other way. I believe this has brought many to dislike her instead of those using her to abuse them. I have no problem with her compilations, because they are still just statements. We need to look at them for what they are. That's why we need to read her writings in its wholeness not in bits and pieces.

[John317]

And am I supposed to study SoP until I believe it? I've studied Sop along side the Bible long enough to not blindly accept the SoP - but to question certain parts of it.

I'm not suggesting that you blindly accept the SoP. That would be the last thing anyone needs, and the church doesn't ask you to do it. In fact, it would be as wrong to blindly accept EGW as it would be to blindly accept the Bible as God's inspired word.

It's OK to ask questions, of course. In fact, it's important to ask them. Questions are necessary in order to learn. But it's also necessary to sincerely seek for the truth. As you know, many people ask questions, not in order to find the answers, but in order to throw doubt onto what someone is saying. I assume you're not doing this, but you alone (and God of course) know whether you really want to know the truth, just as I alone (and God) know whether I genuinely want to know the truth.

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

You recommend talking to other SDA's about it. Other SDA's are the very people who caused me to question the SoP to begin with. Until 12 years ago, I was a die-hard conservative thriving on EGW. So was everyone else in my social group. When I moved cross-country and began attending a new church, people began to challenge my position with questions I couldn't even begin to answer; no matter how much I studieD

Could I ask you how much of Ellen White you've read?

Which books or writings do you consider good and helpful to you?

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

As far as examples of things in SoP I question, I've delineated those in the past. Among them are:

- Application of the day-for-year principle to prophecies in Daniel and Revelation

- Insistence that the papacy/catholic church is the only possible fulfillment of antichrist/beast/false prophet/harlot/Babylon.

-Close of probation before Christ returns

-Millenium in heaven (rather than on earth

-End of sin upon Christ's second coming.

These are questions or topics that are answered in the Bible. Their answer doesn't depend on Ellen White's statements.

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

Nor do I believe that blind acceptance of Sister White is a necessary prerequisite for salvation.

You're certainly right here. But I'm not suggesting that you or anyone else should blindly accept her. That is exactly what neither Ellen White nor the church would want.

[BobRyan]

BobRyan,

You can accuse me (or imply) that I am some half-baked Adventist all you want. I hope and pray that I never sound as condescending and subtly judgmental as you sound. In spite of what you might think, Jesus loves me and wants me in heaven just as much as He loves and wants you there. He's not gonna stand at the judgement bar and question either of us concerning our opinion of Ellen White before giving us our crowns. And He's not gonna prefer Adventists over those "non-Adventist" Baptists and Catholics.

Red herrings.

No one has questioned whether God loves Baptists or Catholics or me or you.

Neither has anyone questioned the fact that there are saints among Baptists and Catholics just as there are among SDAs.

But I conclude that you simply added that for the sake of effect as if those issues were in debate or that there existed differences on those points.

You also do not actually quote anything that I said - so perhaps your other complaints about me were simply ad hominem without actual substance - again for the sake of effect.

That leaves me with very little detail to respond to - other than to remind you that the point of my prior post was to get to the "detail" regarding the actual Bible doctrine on prophecy and how it is tested - and that the Bible way for determining that someone is a false prophet - is the very thing you "claim" you have done with Ellen White.

It was not an argument to deny your free will and right to do whatever you wish in that regard.

in Christ,

Bob