Did Ellen White's ministry INCLUDE the work of a PROPHET?

[Kevin H]

The typical Christian's views of how inspiration works come from ideas that were being developed in the latter half of the 1800s in reaction to the developing views of evolution and modernism (the idea that the Bible was all human made following human evolution and not historical). This reaction was further spread by a group of pamflets in the early 1900s called "The Fundamentals" which finally reached it's high point in a Bible Conference in Philadelphia PA in 1919.

Many Adventist leaders were on their way to this 1919 Bible conference as Adventism at this time was more involved with the Christian world and towards the end of her life Mrs. White was a popular speaker in non-Adventist churches.

A. G. Daniels, W. W. Prescott, Willie White and the religion faculty of Washington Missionary College were being criticized as being apostates (in fact the last few years of her life Mrs. White was also being labled an apostate, although some blamed it on Willie's influence) on this topic.

Ironicly it was Prescott who read some of the early books on Fundamentalism, liked them and started teaching it in the church. When Mrs. White learned what he was teaching she invited him to help her with her writings.

Daniels and Prescott called for another 1919 Bible conference in Washington DC which pesented the truth about inspiration. Willie White sensing the sitauation "regretfully could not assist do to being out of town on business."

The ideas of the 1919 Washington DC Bible conference appeared to go fairly well and Daniels and Prescott told them what they learned from Mrs. White. Haskell in a moderate way and Washburn and Wilkenson in a more extream way opposed Daniels and Prescott.

The group then went on to Philadelphia and sadly took home the message of the Philadelphia 1919 Bible Conference instead of the Washington DC Bible Conference and as I said elsewhere elder Haskell's views became the typical Adventist view and Elders Washburn and Wilkenson became the view of the so called "Historic Adventist" movement

[Johann]

I fully agree with you that some of our Administrators, pastors and laity do not know what the Bible is - and how inspiration works according to the Bible and according to Ellen White's own statements on the subject.

For example - how many know that -

God's Word says "Holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit - spoke from GOD" 2Pet 1:20-21.

Paul says that the Word that church accepted his teaching to the churches "not as the Word of MEN - but for what it is the Word of God" 1Thess 2:13.

Ellen White says that the Bible is in verity - the "Word of God" spoken to each individual as if you could hear God speaking.

Quote:

The Scriptures are to be received as God's word to us, not written merely, but spoken. When the afflicted ones came to Christ, He beheld not only those who asked for help, but all who throughout the ages should come to Him in like need and with like faith. When He said to the paralytic, "Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee"; when He said to the woman of Capernaum, "Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace," He spoke to other afflicted, sin-burdened ones who should seek His help. {FLB 9.4}

So with all the promises of God's Word. In them He is speaking to us individually, speaking as directly as if we could listen to His voice. It is in these promises that Christ communicates to us His grace and power. They are leaves from that tree which is "for the healing of the nations." Received, assimilated, they are to be the strength of the character, the inspiration and sustenance of the life.

{FLB 9.5}

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Indeed often those who wish to ignore the Bible position and the statements by Ellen White that the Bible is the very Word of God spoken to us -- will just quote from that introductory section of GC.

But they forget that in that section Ellen White does not refute her own claim that the Bible itself is the Word of God and is to be accepted as such (nor even the Bible's own statement in that regard) and that to deny this teaching that the Bible is to be accepted as the Word of God -- would be to deny that Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man - rather just fully man - for even in that one quote that they will read on this subject - we find.

Quote:

The Ten Commandments were spoken by God Himself, and were written by His own hand. They are of divine, and not of human composition. But the Bible, with its God-given truths expressed in the language of men, presents a union of the divine and the human. Such a union existed in the nature of Christ, who was the Son of God and the Son of man. Thus it is true of the Bible, as it was of Christ, that “the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.” John 1:14. {GC v.4}

But those who only quote that intro section and then only pay attention to certain parts of it - have somehow gotten it in their minds to teach our pastors to ignore what the Bible says on this subject AND what Ellen White says about the Bible being accepted "THE Word" of God as if spoken directly to us - to the great damage of the church.

As a consequence it is not difficult at all these days to run across a well-meaning pastor that has yet to read the conflict of the ages series.

Even worse - some of them will go so far as to deny the gift of prophecy entirely by recasting it in the watered-down form - as nothing more than "forth telling" - making every bold pastor in every denomination his own "prophet".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

A. G. Daniels, W. W. Prescott, Willie White and the religion faculty of Washington Missionary College were being criticized as being apostates (in fact the last few years of her life Mrs. White was also being labled an apostate, although some blamed it on Willie's influence) on this topic.

Ironicly it was Prescott who read some of the early books on Fundamentalism, liked them and started teaching it in the church. When Mrs. White learned what he was teaching she invited him to help her with her writings.

Daniels and Prescott called for another 1919 Bible conference in Washington DC which pesented the truth about inspiration. Willie White sensing the sitauation "regretfully could not assist do to being out of town on business."

The ideas of the 1919 Washington DC Bible conference appeared to go fairly well and Daniels and Prescott told them what they learned from Mrs. White. Haskell in a moderate way and Washburn and Wilkenson in a more extream way opposed Daniels and Prescott.

The group then went on to Philadelphia and sadly took home the message of the Philadelphia 1919 Bible Conference instead of the Washington DC Bible Conference and as I said elsewhere elder Haskell's views became the typical Adventist view and Elders Washburn and Wilkenson became the view of the so called "Historic Adventist" movement

[Johann]

The danger in using single texts as if God is speaking directly to you through these words only is seen here:

Quote:

The Bible contains all the principles that men need to understand in order to be fitted either for this life or for the life to come. And these principles may be understood by all. No one with a spirit to appreciate its teaching can read a single passage from the Bible without gaining from it some helpful thought. But the most valuable teaching of the Bible is not to be gained by occasional or disconnected study. Its great system of truth is not so presented as to be discerned by the hasty or careless reader. Many of its treasures lie far beneath the surface, and can be obtained only by diligent research and continuous effort. The truths that go to make up the great whole must be searched out and gathered up, “here a little, and there a little.” Isaiah 28:10. {Ed 123.2}

When thus searched out and brought together, they will be found to be perfectly fitted to one another. Each Gospel is a supplement to the others, every prophecy an explanation of another, every truth a development of some other truth.

There is actually much truth in the autobiography of M L Andreasen.

When he first became acquainted with the Seventh-day Adventists around 1895 he kept his first Sabbath right after he had read about it. He was a man of action. So when he read that the disciples were only to carry one suit and one pair of shoes, he discarded his excessive clothes and shoes - because the word said so.

Friday evening he had to go to the youth meeting when it was pouring rain. That made hi angry with God, because what was he going to wear on Sabbath?

He had similar problems with his diet, until he learned how to understand the word of God.

[joeb]

The danger in using single texts as if God is speaking directly to you through these words only is seen here:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if you're replying to Bob Ryan's last post, where did you get that he said anything like: we should take one text only and from that make all our decisions about what God has to say on any one subject? There was nothing like that in his post you replied to, and I've never seen him give only one verse or SOP quote to his support position. He's always had a variety of texts/quotes to support his positions.

[Johann]

Originally Posted By: Johann

The danger in using single texts as if God is speaking directly to you through these words only is seen here:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if you're replying to Bob Ryan's last post, where did you get that he said anything like: we should take one text only and from that make all our decisions about what God has to say on any one subject? There was nothing like that in his post you replied to, and I've never seen him give only one verse or SOP quote to his support position. He's always had a variety of texts/quotes to support his positions.

i have a notion you are, but that is your privilege. You have the full right to be critical towards my old Adventist beliefs and convictions.

Is it disagreeable to you that I use comments others have made as an entering wedge to emphasize a burden I have to keep us steadily on the straight and narrow road of TRUTH that has been established by the Seventh-day Adventist church for more than a century and taught by devoted teachers in our school system?

[joeb]

i have a notion you are, but that is your privilege. You have the full right to be critical towards my old Adventist beliefs and convictions.

Is it disagreeable to you that I use comments others have made as an entering wedge to emphasize a burden I have to keep us steadily on the straight and narrow road of TRUTH that has been established by the Seventh-day Adventist church for more than a century and taught by devoted teachers in our school system?

You can use any means you want to start a discussion. I was just curious as to your intention as I've never seen Bob do what you seemed to accuse him of doing, and he's pretty conservative in his beliefs from everything I've read in his posts.

As to your assumption that I'm critical of well-established SDA truths I guess you're going to have to show me where I'm critical of any of them as I'm about as conservative, theologically speaking, as anyone I know.

Start a new thread on it if you like so we won't be taking this one off-subject.

[BobRyan]

Agreed - a new thread coming up - on the subject of the Bible being the Word of God

[BobRyan]

In the mean time - we have the statement by Ellen White that the "pick and choose - half-way measure" is off the table.

Mrs. White tells us that if we find that something in her writings dissagree with the Bible to follow the Bible.

[olger]

Indeed, BR.

G

[Ron Amnsn]

In the mean time - we have the statement by Ellen White that the "pick and choose - half-way measure" is off the table.

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

Mrs. White tells us that if we find that something in her writings dissagree with the Bible to follow the Bible.

What she does not say is - "pick and choose from my writings - take that which you think is in harmony with the scripture - as being inspired by God and the rest as error".

Rather she argues that her work " is of God or it is of the devil".

Quote:

God is either teaching His church, reproving their wrongs and strengthening their faith, or He is not.

This work is of God, or it is not. God does nothing in partnership with Satan. My work ... bears the stamp of God or the stamp of the enemy. There is no halfway work in the matter. The Testimonies are of the Spirit of God, or of the devil. As the Lord has manifested Himself through the Spirit of prophecy, past, present, and future have passed before me. I have been shown faces that I had never seen, and years afterward I knew them when I saw them. I have been aroused from my sleep with a vivid sense of subjects previously presented to my mind; and I have written, at midnight, letters that have gone across the continent and, arriving at a crisis, have saved great disaster to the cause of God. This has been my work for many years. A power has impelled me to reprove and rebuke wrongs that I had not thought of. Is this work from above or from beneath. CCH93.2

Quote:

God has given us, as His servants, our work. He has given us a message to bear to His people. For thirty years we have been receiving the words of God and speaking them to His people. We have trembled at the responsibility, which we have accepted with much prayer and meditation. We have stood as God’s ambassadors, in Christ’s stead beseeching souls to be reconciled to God. We have warned of danger as God has presented before us the perils of His people. Our work has been given us of God. What, then, will be the condition of those who refuse to hear the words which God has sent them, because they cross their track or reprove their wrongs? If you are thoroughly convinced that God has not spoken by us, why not act in accordance with your faith and have no more to do with a people who are under so great a deception as this people are? If you have been moving according to the dictates of the Spirit of God you are right and we are wrong. God is either teaching His church, reproving their wrongs and strengthening their faith, or He is not. This work is of God, or it is not. God does nothing in partnership with Satan. My work for the past thirty years bears the stamp of God or the stamp of the enemy. There is no halfway work in the matter. The Testimonies are of the Spirit of God, or of the devil. In arraying yourself against the servants of God you are doing a work either for God or for the devil. “By their fruits ye shall know them.” What stamp does your work bear? It will pay to look critically at the result of your course. 4T 229.1-229.2

Those are interesting quotations, Bob, but they don't actually address the point you seem to by trying to make.

Those of us who believe that EGW's writings need to be tested by the Bible, are not opposed to the "testimonies" that EGW gave to the church. When EGW started giving messages to the church, the believers were not following the teachings of Scripture in many areas. EGW called people back to the Scriptures. So the work and writings of EGW brought the church from the point where they started toward where God wanted them to be. That is good.

You apparently believe that when EGW died, she (and perhaps the church) had reached the point of 100% true doctrine. So you use the "all or nothing" approach to her writings. It is evident that you firmly hold the position that "all" of her writings are 100% correct. You apparently have so much confidence in EGW that you believe EGW's writings don't need to be tested by Scripture.

Unfortunately, your position disagrees with they way EGW taught that her writings were to be used. And it also puts the writings of EGW above Scripture. Putting EGW's writings in that position harms the value of her writings.

EGW didn't believe that her work brought the church to the 100% level of true doctrine. She wrote that there would be "new light".

Although I believe that God used EGW to bring the SDA church closer to truth and righteousness, there is still a gap between what EGW taught and what Jesus and the apostles taught. Jesus is the 100% level of doctrine, truth, and righteousness. There are still man-made traditions and doctrines that need to be discarded.

[Ron Amnsn]

Bob, you also seem to be taking the position that 100% of what EGW wrote to the church was written while she was working in the role of a "prophet". But we know that she worked in many other roles as well. She was a mother, wife, counselor, evangelist, health reformer, author, and missionary. Not everything she wrote falls into the category of "testimonies" from God to the church.

The EGW Estate has confirmed that some of the material that has been published in EGW's books was originally published in books and articles written by other authors and was selected by EGW to be included in her books. So if that material was all verbally inspired by God, then God had a number of authors who were true "prophets" working in the 19th century and EGW did some picking and choosing from their writings to determine which materials from those other books and authors would be published in her books. (I'm not concerned here with any issues of plagiarism because plagiarism was not a fault in EGW's day. What I'm pointing out is that if all the words published in EGW's books are "directly inspired" then God apparently inspired other authors to write those words initially and then guided EGW to pick and choose which words from those inspired authors would be included in her writings.)

[Kevin H]

A big issue that we are fighting with is whether we want to accept Mrs. White on HER terms, or on the terms of the 1919 Philadelphia Bible Conference. And if we are going to reject her terms and accept Philidelphia as our standard, then we need to argue between Stephen Haskell's application of the Philadelpia standard, as the typical Adventist does, or the Washburn/Wilkenson application.

[ClubV12]

The concept and idea of 100% verbal inspiration has plagued the Church for a hundred years, it is a gross error and has led to inumerable problems. There are instances of verbal inspiration in Ellen Whites work, which she typically notes with things like, "The angel said...", then quoting the angel. I will leave room for SOME other specific phrases or key wordings where her hand MIGHT have been directed by God. More likely, her THOUGHTS were directed by God. It is certainly safe to say the vast majority of her work was "thought inspiration". She wrote what she was shown, dreamed, told, learned by various means from the Holy Spirit. When she used the words of other writers it does not mean for a minute those other writers were inspired in any sense of the word. She simply recognized they had put together a grouping of words that revealed the truth of the matter in a way she appreciated. And being an "economist" why reinvent the wheel? It's just good practical common sense she was applying.

She often would not remember the details of something she had seen in vision, or dreams or would not understand what it meant. But when she sat down to write the details of a vision or revelation would come forcefully to her mind with clairity and she could write freely, recounting what she had seen. In her own words. In her OWN WORDS is why we have the same stories told by Matthew, Mark, Luke or John with apparent differences! They too were thought inspired. This is the essence of "thought inspiration" vs "dictation".

Ellen White never had to go back and correct some point she had previously made. Considering the vast quantity of her work, that is more than amazing, it is a miracle! In that sense, I don't have a problem accepting her work and writings 100%!

What IS "new light"? Most often, it is "old light" with new understanding. Every truth builds or expounds on some other truth. All truth fits together like a complex puzzle we only see parts and pieces of at any given time. New light will be entirely consistent with EVERYTHING Ellen White had to say, EVERYTHING. Everything Ellen White had to say is entirely consistent with all the prophets and messengers who came before her!

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

In the mean time - we have the statement by Ellen White that the "pick and choose - half-way measure" is off the table.

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

Mrs. White tells us that if we find that something in her writings dissagree with the Bible to follow the Bible.

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

What she does not say is - "pick and choose from my writings - take that which you think is in harmony with the scripture - as being inspired by God and the rest as error - (pick and choose as you wish". Nor does she tell us to "toss out anything that happens to cut across or preference")

Rather she argues that her work " is of God or it is of the devil".

Quote:

God is either teaching His church, reproving their wrongs and strengthening their faith, or He is not.

This work is of God, or it is not. God does nothing in partnership with Satan. My work ... bears the stamp of God or the stamp of the enemy. There is no halfway work in the matter. The Testimonies are of the Spirit of God, or of the devil. As the Lord has manifested Himself through the Spirit of prophecy, past, present, and future have passed before me. I have been shown faces that I had never seen, and years afterward I knew them when I saw them. I have been aroused from my sleep with a vivid sense of subjects previously presented to my mind; and I have written, at midnight, letters that have gone across the continent and, arriving at a crisis, have saved great disaster to the cause of God. This has been my work for many years. A power has impelled me to reprove and rebuke wrongs that I had not thought of. Is this work from above or from beneath. CCH93.2

God has given us, as His servants, our work. He has given us a message to bear to His people. For thirty years we have been receiving the words of God and speaking them to His people. We have trembled at the responsibility, which we have accepted with much prayer and meditation. We have stood as God’s ambassadors, in Christ’s stead beseeching souls to be reconciled to God. We have warned of danger as God has presented before us the perils of His people. Our work has been given us of God. What, then, will be the condition of those who refuse to hear the words which God has sent them, because they cross their track or reprove their wrongs? If you are thoroughly convinced that God has not spoken by us, why not act in accordance with your faith and have no more to do with a people who are under so great a deception as this people are? If you have been moving according to the dictates of the Spirit of God you are right and we are wrong. God is either teaching His church, reproving their wrongs and strengthening their faith, or He is not. This work is of God, or it is not. God does nothing in partnership with Satan. My work for the past thirty years bears the stamp of God or the stamp of the enemy. There is no halfway work in the matter. The Testimonies are of the Spirit of God, or of the devil. In arraying yourself against the servants of God you are doing a work either for God or for the devil. “By their fruits ye shall know them.” What stamp does your work bear? It will pay to look critically at the result of your course. 4T 229.1-229.2

[BobRyan]

When EGW started giving messages to the church, the believers were not following the teachings of Scripture in many areas. EGW called people back to the Scriptures. So the work and writings of EGW brought the church from the point where they started toward where God wanted them to be. That is good.

You apparently believe that when EGW died, she (and perhaps the church) had reached the point of 100% true doctrine.

[BobRyan]

What I said is that not every word she wrote or spoke during her lifetime was inspired. Even a prophet must do and say common, ordinary things,

Notice how "often" the statement is made that "not everything Ellen White said at the breakfast table was sent directly from heaven" (or the close approx to that statement) and yet "still" we get the unnending bait and switch to "you accept Ellen WHite because you imagine that everything she ever said came staight from God" (or a close approx to that statement).

It is as if the "pick-and-choose" group need us to say "I don't pick and choose as you do whenever Ellen White's writings cut across a personal preference - because I believe everything Ellen White said at the breakfast table came directly from God" - no matter the posts to the contrary that are made over and over on this thread.

in Christ,

Bob