Christian Teen Forced By School To Change T-Shirt

[bonnie]

No, of course they should not. But it works both ways. What if some parents decide that math and biology is necessary and harmful subjects for their children? What if they link math to astrology, and biology would reveal too much about human sexuality?

From that POV you would disagree, and you would say that understanding these things makes for better and informed society.

[LynnDel]

The general policy in the public schools in which I have taught is that NO MESSAGE of any kind is allowed on any T-shirt. That stops all the nonsense, but it does make it hard to find T-shirts.

LD

[Guest]

The general policy in the public schools in which I have taught is that NO MESSAGE of any kind is allowed on any T-shirt. That stops all the nonsense, but it does make it hard to find T-shirts.

LD

There's something to be said for solid colors. )

[cricket]

Many schools in our area are choosing uniforms. Public and private institutions.

My son wears a uniform to school, and there are very few problems at his school.

Granted--he is attending a Christian school and the students and teachers uphold the values that parents expect of them (most of the time).

[fccool]

Quote:

Back that up please.It really depends on what "religious perspective" you are referring to. Our sons did not become addicted to porn.

Porn addiction is an extremely private matter. Sometimes it's being mislabeled in Christian circles too, so any data I provide would be inconclusive at best.

Quote:

We forbid them to explore porn,nor did we explain there was a healthy balance on that topic.

The question is not about what you've done, but about how effective it is. Have they looked at porn despite your prohibition?

Quote:

The sexual revolution actually began with the birth control pill.

The pill was a result of sexual revolution... not the cause of it. It's very popular for conservative sociologists to use it as a scapegoat and ignore the complex history that came before. The term "Sexual Revolution" was actually been used since 1910. The pill was not mass-produced till 1960.

Freud's writings on the subject of human sexuality span between late 1800s and early 1900s and contributed greatly to the movement of "sexual liberation", along with the feminist movement that was on the rise since 1900s.

[bonnie]

Porn addiction is an extremely private matter. Sometimes it's being mislabeled in Christian circles too, so any data I provide would be inconclusive at best.

Quote:

Then your statement concerning "christian attitudes towards porn is a cause is also inconclusive.

Children,especially teens have a tendency to disobey their parents wishes or guidelines. That doesn't mean children should grow up without certain guidelines and rules.I know for a fact that our sons did do things they knew they weren't supposed to or that we had forbidden.Yes, we were aware that they did.

Our sons range in age from almost 40 to 51.It is interesting now to listen to them as to what was important to them growing up and what we as parents did to help them say No when others tried to talk them into something they knew they shouldn't be doing. Sometimes they did it anyway,many times being "caught" at it and paying the consequences and sometimes getting by with it.Sometimes getting by with it for a time and then really not liking the consequences when it caught up with them

A teenager disobeying the rules from time to time is far different than becoming addicted to porn. When they did we dealt with it.

When the pill came along it made it possible to engage in behaviors with out worrying about the consequences of a unwanted child.

[Igakusei]

Yeah, God forbid people not be punished with STDs and children for daring to engage in those harmful behaviors. I mean, we wouldn't be able to call them harmful behaviors anymore! And then society would fall apart!!!

[bonnie]

Yeah, God forbid people not be punished with STDs and children for daring to engage in those harmful behaviors. I mean, we wouldn't be able to call them harmful behaviors anymore! And then society would fall apart!!!

STD is a consequence of that behavior. There are consequences,good or bad to every action we take.

[Igakusei]

Would you oppose vaccines to things like HPV and AIDS?

[fccool]

Quote:

When the pill came along it made it possible to engage in behaviors with out worrying about the consequences of a unwanted child.

The condoms came way before the pill did. During 1931 condoms were a standard issue to all members of the US military, for example. Why do you think they did it? After all, it was the God-fearing honorable branch of US that upheld moral standards and code.

Porn magazines were fairly widespread by the time the pill hit the market. Heffner popularized Playboy before "The Pill" with “Playboy Philosophy, a … justification of a postwar good life that, he said, included sex as recreation”

The Pill merely fulfilled the pre-existing demand. It did not "start" anything. While it certainly contributed to more sex outside of marriage, it was not the primary cause of it as many conservatives like to hang it on the pill.

Pill was merely a tool. Saying that pill caused sexual revolution is like saying that guns cause violence and murder.

Sexual revolution was largely a result of extreme sexual ideology that repressed women and lived in the hypocrisy of its own ideals. The 60s crowd grew up seeing their parents telling the stories of the past, or doing it in secret, while telling everyone that it was wrong.

For example, there was a reason for the "roaring 20s". It's labeled by many sociologists as a decade that paved a way for sexual promiscuity. It happened way before the pill was even in plans.

http://voices.yahoo.com/the-decade-gave-birth-sexual-promiscuity-the-280024.html

[cricket]

Igakusei, at what age do you think it is appropriate for humans to begin having sexual relations?

[Igakusei]

I think it depends more on emotional maturity than age, but that's not really the point.

What do you think is more destructive to the long-term success and stability of someone, engaging in premarital sex or teenage pregnancy? People who oppose contraception or vaccines against STDs are fighting to maintain punishments that far exceed the "crime."

Do I think that teenagers should be having sex? No, not really. But I think that they should be getting pregnant even less, and I'm pretty confident saying that people who think pregnancy is an appropriate "punishment" for sex have their priorities badly screwed up.

[Tom Wetmore]

Adding to that, during the early days of the AIDS epidemic, many saw it as a fitting punishment for gay sex and drug users. Again, a really screwed up moral priority, IMHO. When Surgeon General Koop issued his report that included calling for the using condoms and free distribution of clean needles to stem the tide, he was severely castigated by the conservatives that supported his appointment, even though he also advocated abstinence.

[cricket]

I think it depends more on emotional maturity than age, but that's not really the point.

What do you think is more destructive to the long-term success and stability of someone, engaging in premarital sex or teenage pregnancy? People who oppose contraception or vaccines against STDs are fighting to maintain punishments that far exceed the "crime."

Do I think that teenagers should be having sex? No, not really. But I think that they should be getting pregnant even less, and I'm pretty confident saying that people who think pregnancy is an appropriate "punishment" for sex have their priorities badly screwed up.

This thread focuses primarily on a middle-school teenager who chose to wear a sexually-suggestive T-shirt to school. The school officials required her to change out of the shirt and into a shirt that read, "Tomorrow I will dress for success." They have a dress code that prohibits any sexually-suggestive wear.

I asked what age you felt was appropriate for humans to begin having sexual relations and you replied that it depends on emotional maturity. And though you said that really wasn't the point, I think it is precisely the point.

Middle-school children are at various levels of maturity--physical, mental and emotional. Some are ready for sexual relations, but the majority are nowhere near ready. Some have already had sexual relations and are likely to carry those emotional scars with them for a good long time.

Schools, like this one, which promote abstinence are doing their job of keeping teen-aged pregnancies down. The rate at which teens are giving birth are lower now than they have been for ages. Though the primary message they send is abstinence, they also teach the students about STDs, pregnancy, and emotional and physical changes they will experience when they do engage in sexual relations.

I agree that pregnancy should never be viewed as a punishment. Science can explain how pregnancy comes about--a consequence of some sexual relations. Personally, I believe that the miracle of life is a gift from God and should be celebrated.

I don't think STDs are a punishment either--just another consequence of some sexual relations. Teens should be taught about both pregnancy and STDs. And I do think we, as a society, should continue to work toward finding vaccines for STDs and medical advances to treat them as they happen.

People are sinful. And even if you don't agree with that, surely you can agree that people make mistakes. We are careless people sometimes and often need a second chance.

[bonnie]

Would you oppose vaccines to things like HPV and AIDS?

Why don't you stick to the subject.I don't recall saying anything against vaccines for any disease.

[bonnie]

I think it depends more on emotional maturity than age, but that's not really the point.

What do you think is more destructive to the long-term success and stability of someone, engaging in premarital sex or teenage pregnancy? People who oppose contraception or vaccines against STDs are fighting to maintain punishments that far exceed the "crime."

[Igakusei]

Why don't you stick to the subject.I don't recall saying anything against vaccines for any disease.

I know you didn't, which is why I asked. Just trying to understand your mindset.

[Igakusei]

When the pill came along it made it possible to engage in behaviors with out worrying about the consequences of a unwanted child.

It was this comment that triggered my response. I apologize if I was assuming too much into your intent because I do want to represent your views accurately. It's just that a number of statements you've made, especially this one, are statements I usually hear from people who oppose contraception because it enables people who use it to engage in extramarital sex without suffering the consequences (consequences being STDs and pregnancy). The vaccine question was me fishing to see if you fall into that group.

[bonnie]

It was this comment that triggered my response. I apologize if I was assuming too much into your intent because I do want to represent your views accurately. It's just that a number of statements you've made, especially this one, are statements I usually hear from people who oppose contraception because it enables people who use it to engage in extramarital sex without suffering the consequences (consequences being STDs and pregnancy). The vaccine question was me fishing to see if you fall into that group.

If adults choose to engage in premarital sex that is their business,not mine.

This topic I thought was dealing with young teens. One of the reasons we went to the expense of private education is that we did not want others taking our responsibility and supplying our sons with birth control,deciding when they were mature enough. Nor do I believe as you seem to that a "christian" perspective on premarital sex is responsible for all sorts of behavior including porn addiction.

I don't agree with you that teaching children the "principal" of something is always sufficient. Sometimes they need firmer guidelines.

Letting children learn by dealing with the consequences of their actions while very young can go a long way in their decisions later on.

Instead of fishing for an answer,it might work to ask outright. I am not afraid to answer you.

[CoAspen]

I like your line of questioning. If...if we can blame the 'pill' for certain issues/problems in society, can we not continue on that path of 'blaming' for other ills of society?

[Igakusei]

If adults choose to engage in premarital sex that is their business,not mine.

This topic I thought was dealing with young teens. One of the reasons we went to the expense of private education is that we did not want others taking our responsibility and supplying our sons with birth control,deciding when they were mature enough. Nor do I believe as you seem to that a "christian" perspective on premarital sex is responsible for all sorts of behavior including porn addiction.

I don't agree with you that teaching children the "principal" of something is always sufficient. Sometimes they need firmer guidelines.

Letting children learn by dealing with the consequences of their actions while very young can go a long way in their decisions later on.

Instead of fishing for an answer,it might work to ask outright. I am not afraid to answer you.

I wouldn't say I believe that porn addictions as a rule are due to any particular perspective on what constitutes appropriate sexual behavior, because people become addicted to things for all sorts of reasons and I'm not familiar with what research has been done in the specific area of porn addictions.

What I do think, though, is that abstinence-only sex-ed programs often contain misleading or false information, usually fail to actually do the one thing that they're supposed to do, and when many older teenagers have sex anyway--as many do regardless of what they were taught about sex--they're far less equipped than their comprehensively-educated peers are to deal with or prevent the consequences.

Far short of giving 'permission' to engage in sexual behavior, comprehensive sex-ed programs with access to contraception not only reduce rates of teen pregnancy, but many of them actually delay the onset of sexual intercourse.

http://www.moappp.org/Documents/articles/2006/SantelliAbstinenceonlyEducationReviewPaper.pdf

http://www.anep.edu.uy/documentos/edu_se...tinence_m23.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1473988/

Also, do notice that every single one of those strongly recommends abstinence. Nobody is advocating telling teenagers they're free to have sex.

[Bravus]

I'd have to check the evidence to support it, but it's highly plausible to me that the fear of sex and the notion that it's dirty and the cycle of guilt, forgiveness, redemption and temptation mean that those with very strict Christian backgrounds are more prone to porn addictions than other people.

[bonnie]

I'd have to check the evidence to support it, but it's highly plausible to me that the fear of sex and the notion that it's dirty and the cycle of guilt, forgiveness, redemption and temptation mean that those with very strict Christian backgrounds are more prone to porn addictions than other people.

So are you assuming that the notion that sex is dirty and "strict" christian backgrounds go together?

What is a "strict" christian background to you?

[bonnie]

I'd have to check the evidence to support it, but it's highly plausible to me that the fear of sex and the notion that it's dirty and the cycle of guilt, forgiveness, redemption and temptation mean that those with very strict Christian backgrounds are more prone to porn addictions than other people.

http://www.allaboutlifechallenges.org/porn-addiction.htm

Porn Addiction - What causes Porn Addiction?

As with sexual addiction, porn addiction is rarely caused by only one factor, but is more likely a building up of conditions over time. Causes could include exposure to pornographic images at a young age, deep seated insecurity and/or fear of rejection in relationships, or past trauma such as physical and/or sexual abuse. In addition to these causes, porn addiction feeds on itself, and is progressive in nature. A person becomes desensitized to the images that are being seen, and constantly needs more new images. In addition, once exposed to the more graphic depictions of sexual activity, simple nudity is no longer as exciting. In some cases, this progression into harder pornography can lead to illegal activities such as violent porn or child pornography.

[M. T. Cross]

Porn addiction has people from all walks of life. You have the creepy little men that wait for a porn store to open, slink around being generally just greasy and gross. You have the really sick guys that insist that somewhere in the store (probably hidden) is some movies with women getting beaten - like prison tapes. Generally the cops have to be called on those kinds. Then there are the other ones. The ones that rent a movie on a Saturday afternoon, seem all normal, then return it through the overnight slot Sunday morning with a cancel my membership note attached. These ones are usually in a suit and tie and are obviously on their way to church. Sometimes they stop on the way back from church (if one pays attention to the area and the time of their travels if becomes pretty apparent about the church thing) and throw some rocks at the porn store window. But there they are within a couple days renting a movie again. Rinse and repeat. Those ones are the scary ones, because their self hatred is so deep that one can never tell when it might spill over into something violent (beyond throwing rocks).