Dealing respectfully with those who HAVE found God...

[phkrause]

I prefer to have a site where people are not just singing to the choir. All should be welcomed.

I'd be curious as to who's preaching to the choir? And who is the choir by the way.?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

I prefer to have a site where people are not just singing to the choir. All should be welcomed.

I'd be curious as to who's preaching to the choir? And who is the choir by the way.?

ha ha. Good point there pk. I think I get what you are driving at. :)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

so redwood, you deliberately re-post something I specifically asked not be posted in this thread. Your motives are crystal clear... so is your sarcasm and passive aggression. Your typical MO.

[Stan]

So, what should the the acceptance procedure for membership here?

[Stan]

that picture belongs on the other thread...not on this one...please stop spamming this thread..

AM wondering why it as immediately reposted as well.

that was little over the top... WAY OVER THE TOP

[M. T. Cross]

I am curious how many "pagans" and non-SDA" that post so much venom concerning God do so on other religious denomination sites?

I have seen many get upset if they feel that the Muslim faith is being treated in a negative tone here.Would the "pagans and non-believers" do that on a Muslim online community? If not why not?

Would you do so on other religious sites ? If you do what is the response when you post same as you do here. Many that I have visited you would be warned then banned. Questions or simple statements as to what you believe or don't doesn't seem to be a problem

To the best of my knowledge all the "pagans and non-SDA" here are all EX-SDA. So there would be no reason for any of us to go to a Muslim site.

I think all of those of us that fall into that catagory are for our own various personal reasons, here to work through our issues, issues that were cause in large by either the SDA church as a denomination, or by SDA's or both. Sometimes thats a really blurry distinction.

Losing your faith in something you were raised in is a very traumatic thing. It feels like something that is a part of you is being stripped away from you, the only thing I have experienced like it is kicking an addiction. It does not matter what your faith is. It still hurts. When you look at all you were taught and all that you have believed, in faith, to be true, and it dawns on you that none of it seems true, that it all seems to be a lie, you feel defeated, then betrayed. It is a soul crushing experience because you start wondering what else is not what it seems.

One of the only ways to get past a trauma is to face it, some people do that in very discreet and private ways and it works for them. Some people need to face it head on. At various points there are going to be emotions involved in that, one of which is anger. If you look at my registration date, and then look at the date of my first post, you will see there is an almost 10 year gap in there. But everyday I showed up here and was ready to rip you all a new one. I personally waited till that anger went away a bit. It took a total and complete breakdown for me to do that. In hindsight I wish I would have actually posted, it might have saved me a lot of pain and thousands of dollars.

Thing is this. Everyone here is an SDA, pagan, atheist, agnostic, etc. But more than that we are all people. We come from different backgrounds, different experiences and different views. We will rub each other wrong at times. We will be offended by what others say. With that comes a choice. We can get all indignant about it and let it linger in our hearts, or we can look at the situation and learn from it. Study why it upset us, how we feel about our own reaction, at where the other person is really coming from etc. Its amazing how much you can learn from that.

I have a friend that used to say this. If someone punches you in the head, the sore jaw is not the real issue, why they punched you is. You can choose to punch them back or you can choose to work through the real issue and find some common ground on which you both stand.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

I am curious how many "pagans" and non-SDA" that post so much venom concerning God do so on other religious denomination sites?

I have seen many get upset if they feel that the Muslim faith is being treated in a negative tone here.Would the "pagans and non-believers" do that on a Muslim online community? If not why not?

Would you do so on other religious sites ? If you do what is the response when you post same as you do here. Many that I have visited you would be warned then banned. Questions or simple statements as to what you believe or don't doesn't seem to be a problem

To the best of my knowledge all the "pagans and non-SDA" here are all EX-SDA. So there would be no reason for any of us to go to a Muslim site.

I think all of those of us that fall into that catagory are for our own various personal reasons, here to work through our issues, issues that were cause in large by either the SDA church as a denomination, or by SDA's or both. Sometimes thats a really blurry distinction.

Losing your faith in something you were raised in is a very traumatic thing. It feels like something that is a part of you is being stripped away from you, the only thing I have experienced like it is kicking an addiction. It does not matter what your faith is. It still hurts. When you look at all you were taught and all that you have believed, in faith, to be true, and it dawns on you that none of it seems true, that it all seems to be a lie, you feel defeated, then betrayed. It is a soul crushing experience because you start wondering what else is not what it seems.

One of the only ways to get past a trauma is to face it, some people do that in very discreet and private ways and it works for them. Some people need to face it head on. At various points there are going to be emotions involved in that, one of which is anger. If you look at my registration date, and then look at the date of my first post, you will see there is an almost 10 year gap in there. But everyday I showed up here and was ready to rip you all a new one. I personally waited till that anger went away a bit. It took a total and complete breakdown for me to do that. In hindsight I wish I would have actually posted, it might have saved me a lot of pain and thousands of dollars.

Thing is this. Everyone here is an SDA, pagan, atheist, agnostic, etc. But more than that we are all people. We come from different backgrounds, different experiences and different views. We will rub each other wrong at times. We will be offended by what others say. With that comes a choice. We can get all indignant about it and let it linger in our hearts, or we can look at the situation and learn from it. Study why it upset us, how we feel about our own reaction, at where the other person is really coming from etc. Its amazing how much you can learn from that.

I have a friend that used to say this. If someone punches you in the head, the sore jaw is not the real issue, why they punched you is. You can choose to punch them back or you can choose to work through the real issue and find some common ground on which you both stand.

The above is a very nice sentiment, but how does it pertain to the topic of this thread? If one wishes to have a thread on why one became an ex-SDA, go for it...but please not on this thread. It is irrelevant.

[M. T. Cross]

Actually I saw it as an answer to the question Bonnie asked.

[bonnie]

Actually I saw it as an answer to the question Bonnie asked.

[M. T. Cross]

Kind of hard for me to answer those questions Bonnie, I don't believe that I have ever posted that your God is a "sicko or a wacko".

I have never said that rape is caused by "conservative Christian homes"

However if I had been raised a Muslim, became who I am today, I would be at a Muslim site dealing with it, likely the exact same way I deal with things here. Sometimes emotions shine through when people do that. As I said earlier in this thread, I understand how the SDA's here can take it as well, and that their emotions will come through as well. That is often the case in dialogue. Where I think things have gone off the track is that people - on both sides of the issue - have lost site of the fact that their comments cause an emotional reaction. I think that lack of respect for the person(s) behind the user name and avatar is a bigger cause of problem than the lack of respect for the Bible and/or God. Thats just my observation.

What I find odd though, is the thread in question is about half as bad as what I see SDA's doing to each other down in Theological. I find it odd that no-one seems to bring that up.

[bonnie]

Kind of hard for me to answer those questions Bonnie, I don't believe that I have ever posted that your God is a "sicko or a wacko".

I have never said that rape is caused by "conservative Christian homes"

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Kind of hard for me to answer those questions Bonnie, I don't believe that I have ever posted that your God is a "sicko or a wacko".

I have never said that rape is caused by "conservative Christian homes"

I know you are not the one that made those comments,but they were made.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

But I meant more the lack of respect, personal attacks etc in Theological far surpass what is in the thread in question here.

What difference does that make? That's not what the issue is here. The Christian Theology forum participants are not slamming the Christian God. They aren't referring to Him as a "sicko" or in other demeaning and insulting terms.

I find it disgusting that some seem to think it is a ban-worthy offense when someone makes a comment on someone else's [very obvious] passive aggressive behavior or veiled sarcasm, but it is just fine and dandy to heap insults and ridicule on the God of the Bible. Absolutely shameful. In my opinion.

[fccool]

Quote:

I wasn't suggesting all of you head for a Muslim Site.What I was asking is would the same disrespect be shown to those of another faith,Baptist,Catholic etc?

Nor am I suggesting that you leave

Bonnie, I think this would be a quite odd to say coming from an SDA background.

SDAs are generally disliked by these denominations mainly because of the same type of "disrespect" you are talking about.

It's very difficult to handle criticism with dignity. I generally have base respect for any human being in general, but that's not true for beliefs. Beliefs are not human. We get attached to these and cherish these, and get offended when people criticize our belief, but in the end they are merely voicing why they don't believe the same way we do.

Quote:

Would you refer to Mohammed as a "sicko and wacko"? Is that appropriate here? If it would not be appropriate to another faith,what makes it appropriate here?

It's quite appropriate IMO if there's underlying reason to believe that. That's what the forum is for. It's for discussing and defending one's beliefs and ideas. If we get upset that one's cherished ideas are disrespected, then there is no point of discussing anything at all.

Quote:

Would you go to another christian site or a Muslim site that does not condone alcohol consumption and start posting about beer?

Listen, this is once again quite odd question to ask from a denomination that goes door-to-door trying to convince people that they are so bad in God's eyes that someone has to die for them in order for God to forgive them.

That's why I posted the cartoon. Atheists and other religions are EXTREMELY tolerant and accepting of Christians in spite of what they believe... you know the idea of exclusive favor with God based on idea of faith.

Christians, and especially Adventist Christians, have no issue with voicing their beliefs to others. They have no issues with going door-to-door trying to convince people of their beliefs in spite of the potential offensive nature of such belief.

If I asked you if you believe that Bible is 100% true, you would probably say yes.

Therefore...

"The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good."

"Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?"

Faithless are there along with murderers, child molesters, drunkards, liars... you name it.

etc... etc...

So, it's quite odd demanding respect when one's core belief considers people who disagree with them to be fools and corrupt, and doing no good.

Should people have the respect for the above belief?

Quote:

I take from what rudywoofs has asked to be more is "What is the respectful way to treat those that do believe in God or have found their way back. Is it the constant hammering on what is wrong with God in your(general) view. I don't think there is a failing on this earth that has not been blamed on christians.

I don't think people disrespect belief in God here. I believe that God exists, for example... even though I don't think that Christian description of God is very accurate.

The issue with Christianity is that it's a religion that takes its roots in extremely violent ideas. Sure, we can ignore these roots and go straight to message of forgiveness and tolerance, but that's not what you see in modern Christianity and Advenitism.

I don't disagree that Christians do plenty of great things, but what they believe is that doing good is impossible without being a Christian... and that's a very elitist and disturbing belief that has disrespect at its core.

When someone says "Every good you do is selfish unless you believe like I do", what can you really say? Should one respect that?

Likewise, there are different levels of belief. The one that's presented to the public, and the one they find out in Church later on once they about to "seal the deal".

In that sense, there should be understanding that there are levels of respect. Respect is defined:

A feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements.

I have a lot of respect for various aspects of faith. I don's have much respect for other, but it does not mean that if I don't have respect for some that I don't have respect for all.

I can voice my disgust with the idea that ordering to kill people, including women and Children just to fulfill the promise to a nation of savage... is quite unbecoming of God IMO. It's a fair criticism. It's quite different than saying "You are an idiot if you believe so", which Biblical writers have no problem saying.

So, the question becomes - How do you reconcile it? How do you reconcile a faith in which disrespect and exclusivity is rooted as a core belief? Should one automatically respect (have a feeling of deep admiration) everything that such faith presents?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

mr cool, even when I was a pagan I never considered Adventism a proselytizing type of religion. Ones that do come to mind would be Jehovah's Witness and Latter Day Saints. The Adventist faith does evangelism, but nobody is sticking their feet inside someone's door uninvited.

I think you are missing the point Bonnie is making - nobody on this forum would get away with ridiculing Islam and Mohammed....indeed, great liberal wrath would come down upon them. Yet the God of the Bible can be mocked and ridiculed ad nauseum. And the ones doing it are shored and encouraged to keep it up.

Why is it such a difficult concept to understand??? I began this thread because I saw my God being ..... well, being crucified all over again.

[fccool]

Quote:

mr cool, even when I was a pagan I never considered Adventism a proselytizing type of religion. Ones that do come to mind would be Jehovah's Witness and Latter Day Saints. The Adventist faith does evangelism, but nobody is sticking their feet inside someone's door uninvited.

Of course, it does not happen as often as JWs, but door-to-door evangelism is a fairly common mode of many Adventist Churches. If what you say is true... then why would this be even a problem?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/17/alabaster-seventh-day-adventists_n_1677920.html

Quote:

I think you are missing the point Bonnie is making - nobody on this forum would get away with ridiculing Islam and Mohammed....indeed, great liberal wrath would come down upon them.

Plenty on this forum, including Bonnie, get away with "ridiculing" Islam.

If you look at John, who is mod on many forums, many of his posts consist of heavy criticism of Islam. Sure they meet some opposition, but so does the "ridiculing" of your God. People who do "ridicule" your God are in extreme minority here, so I feel it's very odd that you feel ambushed by 3 or 4 people on this forum, when a vast majority of people here are fairly conservative.

What "great liberal wrath" are you talking about in a forum setting? Someone slams them for being overly one-sided, and failing to see similar ideas in Christianity?

You demand your ideas being heard, but do you understand my point about your faith being offensive at it's core? Do you grasp that concept? Do you understand that when you say that 100% of the Bible is true, that you automatically saying that anyone who does not believe the same is a wicked fool?

Quote:

Yet the God of the Bible can be mocked and ridiculed ad nauseum. And the ones doing it are shored and encouraged to keep it up. Why is it such a difficult concept to understand??? I began this thread because I saw my God being ..... well, being crucified all over again.

Pam,

Here's the thing. I've already pointed out the discrepancy to you, and you simply fail to see it.

I'll tell you why people here who criticize Christianity, generally don't criticize Islam. Islam has very little baring on life in this country. Islam does not govern the political ideals, it does not promote scientific illiteracy, it does not collect billions of dollars in revenues annually in this country. I would agree that Islam is a stone-age religion that sent the region from era of extreme development in science and understanding of our world into complete stagnation and lunacy. If Islam did not come to 2nd century Persian region, we probably would probably be a computerized world by 10th century instead of merely having Arabic Numerals and Algebra as the remnant of the great that could have been.

If you want me to criticize Islam to be fair to you, by all means:

Islam is a very rigid religion that stumps progress of humanity by violently suppressing humanity in general. Allah is a violent deity, and Mohammed is nothing more than a human being who was either delusional, or lying to establish yet another religion... and it's highly unlikely that he is the heaven somewhere right now, because it's a concept that he himself made up.

How does that fix anything for you? What other respectful way is there to say that Biblical God at times seems like a maniacal murderer than an all-knowing, loving and patient God? How can one respectfully disagree in such case? Respect requires admiration of certain concept. One can't admire and detest certain things at the same time. In certain cases, respect simply does not work.

You see, certain things should not be respected. For example, Bonnie does not respect abortion, and she shouldn't. I don't respect genocides ordered by God of Christianity. You may have some justification for it, but I don't have to respect that aspect of your God. It's very much bash-worthy.

[bonnie]

Quote:

Bonnie, I think this would be a quite odd to say coming from an SDA background.

SDAs are generally disliked by these denominations mainly because of the same type of "disrespect" you are talking about.

Really? I have friends in both denominations mentioned.I neither dislike them or disrespect them. Nor do I think they dislike me.

Quote:

It's very difficult to handle criticism with dignity. I generally have base respect for any human being in general, but that's not true for beliefs. Beliefs are not human. We get attached to these and cherish these, and get offended when people criticize our belief, but in the end they are merely voicing why they don't believe the same way we do.

Getting attached to something is not quite how I would describe my faith

Quote:

It's quite appropriate IMO if there's underlying reason to believe that. That's what the forum is for. It's for discussing and defending one's beliefs and ideas. If we get upset that one's cherished ideas are disrespected, then there is no point of discussing anything at all.

Discuss and disrespect do not have the same meaning

Quote:

Listen, this is once again quite odd question to ask from a denomination that goes door-to-door trying to convince people that they are so bad in God's eyes that someone has to die for them in order for God to forgive them.

I have visits from Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons on a regular basis. Never once have I felt they did so because I was so bad.I look at it as they are sharing their faith.

Quote:

That's why I posted the cartoon. Atheists and other religions are EXTREMELY tolerant and accepting of Christians in spite of what they believe... you know the idea of exclusive favor with God based on idea of faith.

You have a very distorted idea of "christians"

Quote:

Christians, and especially Adventist Christians, have no issue with voicing their beliefs to others. They have no issues with going door-to-door trying to convince people of their beliefs in spite of the potential offensive nature of such belief.

I have yet to have a christian of any denomination come to my door informing me that the God I believe in is a sicko and a wacko.

Quote:

If I asked you if you believe that Bible is 100% true, you would probably say yes.

Therefore...

"The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good."

"Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?"

Faithless are there along with murderers, child molesters, drunkards, liars... you name it.

etc... etc...

So, it's quite odd demanding respect when one's core belief considers people who disagree with them to be fools and corrupt, and doing no good.

Yes,I believe the bible is the inspired word of God.

Should people have the respect for the above belief?

[fccool]

Quote:

No,Christianity does not have it's roots in violent ideas.

So, you don't find the idea that killing animals for God to forgive one's sins is violent... which is then remedied by killing human being (As was planned by God from the beginning), in order to reconcile people with God...

You don't find any violent ideas in that at all?

[bonnie]

Quote:

mr cool, even when I was a pagan I never considered Adventism a proselytizing type of religion. Ones that do come to mind would be Jehovah's Witness and Latter Day Saints. The Adventist faith does evangelism, but nobody is sticking their feet inside someone's door uninvited.

Of course, it does not happen as often as JWs, but door-to-door evangelism is a fairly common mode of many Adventist Churches. If what you say is true... then why would this be even a problem?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/17/alabaster-seventh-day-adventists_n_1677920.html

No,I have not ridiculed Islam. I do take exception to those that claim Islam and blow up buildings,killing thousands,cutting heads off,Sharia law that buries women up to their necks and then stones them.

Quote:

You demand your ideas being heard, but do you understand my point about your faith being offensive at it's core? Do you grasp that concept? Do you understand that when you say that 100% of the Bible is true, that you automatically saying that anyone who does not believe the same is a wicked fool?

Then what on earth are you doing spending time with such offensive people?

that you automatically saying that anyone who does not believe the same is a wicked fool?[

I should discard the bible because it does not agree with you? Don't think so.

I have never called anyone a wicked fool. What I am automatically saying is I believe the bible. I do not claim you need to. For me,that is between you and God.You don't share my belief,I don't have a problem with that,but I do not believe pages of what I consider the inspired word of God needs to be ripped out to make you comfortable with my belief. Anymore than I believe whatever you believe or you follow needs to be tailored to my comfort.

.

Quote:

If you want me to criticize Islam to be fair to you, by all means:

You simply do not get it.There isn't any request to condemn Islam or anyone else.The question was if you were in another group,Islam being one would the comments be so offensive and disrespectful.

Quote:

You see, certain things should not be respected. For example, Bonnie does not respect abortion, and she shouldn't. I don't respect genocides ordered by God of Christianity. You may have some justification for it, but I don't have to respect that aspect of your God. It's very much bash-worthy.

Let me speak for myself please. Well,at least we know you feel a calling to bash God

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Mr cool, I think you somehow keep missing the point of this thread. It IS NOT about Islam!!! It is not about animal sacrifice (which, by the way, was done by nearly all ancient peoples). It is NOT about Amalekites. It is NOT about violence. It is NOT about disrespect of people's belief in God. IT IS ABOUT DISRESPECTING GOD. REPEATEDLY. WITH THE ADMIRATION AND ENDORSEMENT OF FORUM MEMBERS.

**sigh**

I feel like I need to start using crayons, a flannelboard, and one-syllable words to communicate.

[bonnie]

So, you don't find the idea that killing animals for God to forgive one's sins is violent... which is then remedied by killing human being (As was planned by God from the beginning), in order to reconcile people with God...

You don't find any violent ideas in that at all?

The root is what you said I believe.

[bonnie]

Actually I saw it as an answer to the question Bonnie asked.

My husband was raised very staunch Catholic,attended Catholic school,altar boy etc. After leaving the Catholic church,which was very hard for him because of family it would never have occurred to him to bash or be disrespectful in any way.

We had catholic friends and they of course would ask,especially becoming SDA.I can't even imagine him going to a online community and saying some of what has been said here.

Why do ex-SDA's feel compelled to do so?

Stating you are no longer SDA and why is one thing,the sicko,wacko tone is quite another

[fccool]

Quote:

Mr cool, I think you somehow keep missing the point of this thread. It IS NOT about Islam!!!

IT IS ABOUT DISRESPECTING GOD. REPEATEDLY. WITH THE ADMIRATION AND ENDORSEMENT OF FORUM MEMBERS.

**sigh**

I feel like I need to start using crayons, a flannelboard, and one-syllable words to communicate.

Pam,

The point is that you want to be understood, but you make no effort to understand others. You want everyone only to speak good things about your God, and you don't make very much effort to see why other people have the issue with your views.

People on this forum don't enforce and admire criticism of Christian God. Most here don't agree with it, but they don't cry about it. They attempt to defend it.

What you are asking for is for your idea of Christian God to be beyond criticism, and it's quite unrealistic. I've already explained to you the difference between valid criticism, and the levels of respect... but you don't want to understand it.

All you seem to want is to draw "Stop disrespecting God" in crayons on paper signs and parade and protest .

If you don't believe that the criticism is valid, then defend it. That's what the forum is for, to discuss things in a civil manner without preconception or excessive hostility. I don't hate Christian God. I don't think it's a very consistent painting of God. If you find it to be disrespectful, I can't help it.

[fccool]

Quote:

No,I have not ridiculed Islam. I do take exception to those that claim Islam and blow up buildings,killing thousands,cutting heads off,Sharia law that buries women up to their necks and then stones them.

And I do take exception who claim the God of the universe and commit genocide of women and Children, kill people for picking up sticks on the wrong day, or slaughter millions of animals with sole idea that it somehow repairs their relationship with God... and then proudly write about as an enforcement and command by God.

See, we are not so different after all.

[bonnie]

Mr cool, I think you somehow keep missing the point of this thread. It IS NOT about Islam!!! It is not about animal sacrifice (which, by the way, was done by nearly all ancient peoples). It is NOT about Amalekites. It is NOT about violence. It is NOT about disrespect of people's belief in God. IT IS ABOUT DISRESPECTING GOD. REPEATEDLY. WITH THE ADMIRATION AND ENDORSEMENT OF FORUM MEMBERS.

**sigh**

I feel like I need to start using crayons, a flannelboard, and one-syllable words to communicate.

Both of us will have a headache in the morning if we don't stop banging our heads into a concrete wall.

Flannelboards are good.